Discussion - Player ship selection 1st Half 2016

[jodgi]

We're not allowed to discuss or ask questions in the main posting and voting thread.

Yours truly can have a hard time keeping his mouth shut, so I made this outlet

Maybe you want to lobby certain votes; explain to other voters why they should vote on a certain ship? Maybe you want to ask questions?

I'll start off on a feelgood note:

When Malachi posted a Danish SOL called "Norsk Løve" (Norwegian Lion) I simply had to vote for it though I have very limited interest for big ships. In fact, I had a sudden urge to go hug the fuck out of a Danish person for historical reasons.

[Zeekoning]

Edit - H. Darby (Information based on the previous Ship Suggestion thread for 2015):

Ships from the years: 1670-1825 are acceptable.
1730-1790 is preferred

While I'm not against Greek ships, I am against including the Loudovikos in the poll based on when it was built (1838).  This means that it is out of the acceptable year range by 13 years, and out of the preferred range by 48 years.

 

However, on the same post is a much better candidate for voting on.  The frigate Hellas was built in 1826, and while it is still technically out of the time period, it is significantly closer.

[jodgi]

Dutch - 90 gun Admiraal de Ruyter,1808

How badly would this upset the current lineup? Not only is it a smaller target than vic/santi, but I bet it's faster too.

[Sella]

Yes Loudovikos is out of the time frame by a fair bit but the museum employee that i asked said that even if it was built fairly late,the design that was made by a designer named Tompazis,is based on older (french?) corvette designs so for its time it was a bit outdated.I only suggested the ship to possibly fill some gaps that there might be between SOLs and smaller ships plus to add some variety to the nation ships that appear in to the game.Then again if it is that big of a problem i wouldnt object on removing it but it seems that the staff hasnt removed it for a reason maybe?I dont know.

 

 

On the other hand the problem with the frigate Hellas is that there are no ship plans of the ship in Greece.But the plans for her sister ship the USS Hudson/Liberator which was also built for the Greek goverment might exist in the USA.I tried to contact with the national archives but i received no response which led me to ask for help in the respective thread in the forums but nobody responded.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Sella22

[OlavDeng2]

Yes Loudovikos is out of the timeframe a fair bit but the museum employee that i asked said that even if it was built fairly late,the design that was made by a designer named Tompazis,is based on older (french?) corvette designs so for its time it was a bit outdated.I only suggest the ship to possibly fill some gaps that there might be between SOLs and smaller ships plus to add some variety to the nation ships that appear in to the game.Then again if it is that big of a problem i wouldnt object on removing it but it seems that the staff hasnt removed it for a reason maybe?I dont know.

 

 

On the other hand the problem with the frigate Hellas is that there are no ship plans of the ship in Greece.But the plans for her sister ship the USS Hudson/Liberator which was also built for the Greek goverment might exist in the USA.I tried to contact with the national archives but i received no response which led me to ask for help in the respective thread in the forums but nobody responded.

im against this for one simple reason, you say sure but we can bend the rules a little... then next time something else from 1835 or something is suggested theyl point to the greek ship and then that will be accepted, and things will be stretched and stretched and then we get what happened to war thunder... first only historical air craft and tanks between 1930 or something and 1953... meanwhile today we have maus as a tank in game and a bunch  of other unhistorical shit... dont want hte same to happen here.

[TommyShelby]

How badly would this upset the current lineup? Not only is it a smaller target than vic/santi, but I bet it's faster too.

 

I have no idea but i'm just throwing this one out there: 

We need to watch what we put into the game, there is a reason why we have no american ships of the line even though a few of them are actually within the timeframe. (They are supposedly "OP" from what i've been told). If we suddenly have an "OP" Dutch ship then i for one also want "OP" american ships  

Again, i have no idea how this applies to the ship in question but if it is actually "OP" and implemented in the game then we will have several threads/discussions about those american SoL once more.

[Zeekoning]

It's not that I'm against the design, but I feel that it opens the door for people to advocate other ships built around the same time, such as clipper ships.  As for the Hellas, if it finishes the poll, the developers will do their best to create it.  This happened when the Amsterdam won last years poll even though it's plans also were hard to find.

[Zeekoning]

How badly would this upset the current lineup? Not only is it a smaller target than vic/santi, but I bet it's faster too.

One way it could be balanced is if it could not carry as heavy of guns as the others.  This would give it a slight advantage in number of guns and speed, but the class of guns wouldn't be as good.

[Sella]

If the devs believe that it is really out the time frame or it wont serve any purpose of implementing it in to the game then they can remove it and i wont object.I just suggested her for the reasons that i believe but it if the devs dont agree im fine with it.If they do add it in the poll though you can simply not vote for it so it wont make it into the game which im also fine with.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Sella22

[akd]

There was interest expressed in heavy-to-super frigates not of US/Brit/French origin. I found reference to a 1797 Dutch 44-gun 24pdr frigate named Amfitrite, that became briefly HMS Amphitrite after capture 1799, then also briefly HMS Imperieuse before end of her short career in 1804. In British service, she carried 28x 24pdrs (later 18s) on upper deck and 14 24pdr carronades and 2 9pdrs on her QD/FC. Unfortunately, I can find no plans for her.

The suggestion thread includes the following:

From Steel's thread of Dutch ships:40-gun, Eendracht, 1789

Although plans say 1789, the only Dutch 5th rate I can find reference to with that name was a 44-gun launched in 1797. I wonder if Eendracht is of same or similar design as 1797 Amfitrite?

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

While I'm not against Greek ships, I am against including the Loudovikos in the poll based on when it was built (1838).  This means that it is out of the acceptable year range by 13 years, and out of the preferred range by 48 years.

 

However, on the same post is a much better candidate for voting on.  The frigate Hellas was built in 1826, and while it is still technically out of the time period, it is significantly closer.

The next step after the current thread is to create a voting thread - the current thread isn't the final list.

Just having the ship in the thread doesn't mean anything. The Developers will sit down when it is time and create a voting poll of the ships from that thread that they think will work well in the game. It's ok to have a ship that's a little out of timeframe in that thread (within reason), but that doesn't mean it will end up on the final voting list.

Also Jodgi, thanks for creating this thread. I may just start moving questions/suggestions into it. Pinned for great justice.

[SteelSandwich]

Although plans say 1789, the only Dutch 5th rate I can find reference to with that name was a 44-gun launched in 1797. I wonder if Eendracht is of same or similar design as 1797 Amfitrite?

You are right, it was a mistake in the filing of all the ships. It has been edited in my main file and my topic.

[Alex Connor]

I have no idea but i'm just throwing this one out there: 

We need to watch what we put into the game, there is a reason why we have no american ships of the line even though a few of them are actually within the timeframe. (They are supposedly "OP" from what i've been told). If we suddenly have an "OP" Dutch ship then i for one also want "OP" american ships  

Again, i have no idea how this applies to the ship in question but if it is actually "OP" and implemented in the game then we will have several threads/discussions about those american SoL once more.

 

Not to disparage the Admiraal de Ruyter but I don't see anything particularly OP or game-breaking.

 

All I can really find on the ship is that it's part of the Wreker class, of which the Dutch built 8. So probably a good design, or at least well suited to Dutch requirements. Very little details I can find on armament apart from looking at gunports on the plan, but we do have the dimensions of 195 Amsterdam feet gundeck length.

 

Roughly speaking, this ship is most closely comparable in size and armament to a Temeraire class 74 with a few more weatherdeck guns. 195 Amsterdam feet is 181ft Imperial, the Temeraire is 183ft. Both ships carry 14 pairs of guns on the gundeck and 15 pairs on the upper deck (with a pair of chase ports on gundeck), then Temeraire has 8 pairs of French 8pdrs on the weatherdeck and the Admiraal de Ruyter seems to have 14 pairs of small guns (probably 8 or 9 pdrs) on the weatherdeck and both ships have 2 pairs of light guns or howitzers/carronades on the roundhouse.

 

Hull form is the usual Dutch type, shallow draught, flat bottom, square profile. Necessary for operations in shallow dutch water, but not the best for sailing qualities. Most Wrekers were rated 80 and carried exactly 80 guns which lead to me to believe the Dutch rating system is exact (the French system is not, the '74' gun Temeraire really carried 78), Admiraal de Ruyter is then an experiment in overgunning and not a true 90 gun ship.

[Malachi]

There was interest expressed in heavy-to-super frigates not of US/Brit/French origin.

 

 

That´s going to be interesting, there weren´t many 'true' 24s around in our timeframe. True meaning that they carried the same long 24-pounders as SoLs did and not some shortened and lighter versions (e.g. british Gover guns and swedish light 24s).

 

Caveat: none of these 24s would be a real 'Connie-killer' (La Forte/L´Egyptienne were of similiar length and also had 30*24 setup, though, and both were renowned for their sailing qualites).

Constitution and her sisters were a class of their own and the game should reflect that.

Ideally, she should be balanced by being available at same the level and with the same price tag as a 64 or 74 gun SoL, not by another big frigate which would make our line-up even more 'top-heavy'. I mean, we currently have just one real 18-pounder frigate...

 

Anyway, for future reference, here are some 24-pounder frigates in our timeline (with plans available):

 

Pourvoyeuse (french, 1773)

Consolante (french, 1775)

Bellona-class (swedish, starting 1782)

Pomone (french, 1785, designed as a large 18-pounder frigate, upgraded to 24s in british service, base for Endymion)

Vengeance (french, 1793)

Résistance (french, 1794)

Freja (danish, 1793, designed as 18-pounder frigate, Gover 24-pounders in british service 1809-1815)

Forte (french, 1794)

Endymion (british, 1797)

Egyptienne (french, 1799)

Rota (danish, 1801)

af Chapman (swedish, 1803, not sure if she carried light or long 24-pounders)

 

Bold: designed as 24-pounder frigate and carried long 24-pounders throughout her career (some carried 18-pounders during peacetime, like Endymion and the Bellona-class, though)

italic: designed as 24-pounder frigate but permanently downgraded to 18-pounders at some point.

 

I tried to cap at ~1800, the french, spanish and british launched a couple of 24s in the mid-1810s and early 1820s, but these became obsolete rather quickly with the developement of the new 30-pounder frigates with a completely armed spar-deck, starting 1822. And if we allow these, then balance really goes to hell.

 

That being said, I´d love to see the Téméraire-class razée Romulus/Guerièrre  - 'an excellent frigate, remarkable for her sea-going qualities' - with 28 french 36-pounders (~ 40 british pounds) ingame at some point.  Just for shit and giggles, you know

 

reason for edit: trying to get my accents aigues and graves right...

Edited October 11, 2015 by Malachi

[LeBoiteux]

I guess we also must fill in the gap between the 12-gun Pickle and the 18-gun Brig, not just in terms of number of guns, but also in terms of design and type of rig.

 

For example, the brigantine La Vilaine (1740) posted by Brigand : http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/2498-player-selected-ship-2015-suggestions/?p=54125

Edited October 11, 2015 by LeBoiteux

[BungeeLemming]

It would be great if we can have one more 74 in the game. Why?

Well because the Bellona is a light 74 in regards to others which were actually armed with 32pd | 24pd | 12pd.

Bellona would be the more nimble but lesser hitting ship.

 

On the other hand we still badly need frigates in range of 12 pd armament. Which should be the workhorse of every nation.

[Malachi]

Hm, we do have the Belle Poule and the 'frigate' has the size of a 12-pounder as well.

What we really need is a proper french 18-pounder, like Sané´s Virginie-class:

 

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/82108.html

 

Beautiful, elegant vessels and very common during the end of our timeframe (1790-1815).

I personnaly would prefer a frigate of Forfait´s Seine- or Gloire-class, though, but that´s just me.

 

Seine as captured:

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/82022.html

Model of the Gloire

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66607.html

 

And a genuine british 18-pounder design like the Lively- (HMS/USS Macedonian) or Amphion-class would be nice to have, too.

I can live with a Leda for the time being, though

Edited October 11, 2015 by Malachi

[akd]

 

On the other hand we still badly need frigates in range of 12 pd armament. Which should be the workhorse of every nation.

Well, we have two apparent 12pdr frigates in game (Belle Poule and Frigate) that have instead been given 18pdrs (and 12pdrs on their FC/QD!).

Also, which 74s carried 24pdrs on their upper deck?

[Zeekoning]

 

I understand the British ships are discouraged, yet I feel this is the only frigate that can really rival Constitution.

 

HMS Endymion, 40-guns, 1797, 26x24pd, 14x32pd carronades, 2x9pd

What about the ship suggested by jodgi?

 

From Steel's thread of Dutch ships:

44-gun, unknown, 1807

This ship had 28 X 24 lb cannons, and 16 X 36 lb carronades.

[maturin]

That's not really a modern frigate. More like an obsolete two-decker, only with the guns moved up a deck.

[Snoopy]

Well, we have two apparent 12pdr frigates in game (Belle Poule and Frigate) that have instead been given 18pdrs (and 12pdrs on their FC/QD!).

Also, which 74s carried 24pdrs on their upper deck?

 

There were a couple of 24pdr 74s although the vast majority of them were not.

examples:

brit:

HMS Mars (1794)

HMS Centaur (1797)

HMS Courageux (1800)

HMS Plantagenet (1801)

HMS Bulwark (1807)

HMS Kent (1798)

HMS Ajax (1798)

HMS Revenge (1805)

HMS Colossus (1803)

HMS Warspite (1807)

french:

Vétéran (1803)

Cassard (1803)

 

The french ships are one-off boats that had their 24s removed after a while (but there are older french 74s with them). There was probably a price to be paid for these guns on a 74 and it is of note that the French Temeraire 74s (which were large boats for a 74) never had them except for the two exceptions above.

[Wicked Mouse]

meanwhile today we have maus as a tank in game and a bunch  of other unhistorical shit...

It's all historical, they all exist, so donno what you're talking about

 

 

And I'd very much would like to see the Fluyt class ship in the game. Not because it's an awesome war machine or has such an awesome looking stern. None of that. But because it's such a unique looking ship that was used a lot during the 17th century and I bet well into 18th as well, since it was such an efficient cargo ship. It needed little crew to handle and had to pay less toll at the Danish straight to the Baltic Sea.

[Zeekoning]

That's not really a modern frigate. More like an obsolete two-decker, only with the guns moved up a deck.

Well, I would have mentioned the 56 gun Unknown as a non-British ship that could compete with the Constitution.  However, I do not know what armament it would carry, whereas I could find the armament for the other ship, which had a slight advantage in firepower compared to the proposed British ship.

 

56 gun Unknown

[SteelSandwich]

It's all historical, they all exist, so donno what you're talking about

 

 

And I'd very much would like to see the Fluyt class ship in the game. Not because it's an awesome war machine or has such an awesome looking stern. None of that. But because it's such a unique looking ship that was used a lot during the 17th century and I bet well into 18th as well, since it was such an efficient cargo ship. It needed little crew to handle and had to pay less toll at the Danish straight to the Baltic Sea.

Talking about dutch merchantmen...

 

[Alex Connor]

It's all historical, they all exist, so donno what you're talking about

 

 

And I'd very much would like to see the Fluyt class ship in the game. Not because it's an awesome war machine or has such an awesome looking stern. None of that. But because it's such a unique looking ship that was used a lot during the 17th century and I bet well into 18th as well, since it was such an efficient cargo ship. It needed little crew to handle and had to pay less toll at the Danish straight to the Baltic Sea.

 

I do like Fluyts, they've got a great deal of character and were tremendously important during the 17th century, but have to point out that once the deck width tax loophole was closed (1702 if I remember?) the Fluyt as a type disappeared almost overnight, replaced by wall sided barks (Kattschips and Bootschips).