Player roles discussions

[Spork]

After my initial reaction and post I went for a swim and had a thought:

 

This could very well be used to differentiate nations. As a (very rough) example:

 

Britain: Heavily tilted towards naval careers. The ships you sail, the missions you are assigned, the amount of crew are all based on leaderboards. Privateers are very strictly regulated and have a limited role. They are moderately rewarded for the taking of prized. Merchants are rewarded well for service to the navy but have little to no ability to sell non trading type ships to individuals with stiff taxation on any private sales. Guilds have little active voice in the direction that the country takes in International affairs, that's the kings job.

 

U.S.: Naval careers are encouraged but hampered by limited ship type availability. Leaderboards are less useful as the navy only has so many ship types. Privateers are integral to the prosecution of war aims and are well rewarded for prizes taken. Merchants are moderately taxed on sales of all ship types but have very limited regulation on what they may sell and who they may sell it to. Guilds have a moderate voice in international affairs. Woe to the President that disregards them too often.

 

Danmark-Norway: Small navy with limited growth potential for those that choose naval careers. Leaderboards rarely used. Privateers are nearly completely responsible for the prosecution of war aims and are richly rewarded for accomplishing contracts stated within their letters of marque. Merchants are only allowed to sell ships to the navy or privateers of their own nation but pay very low taxes on those sales. Guilds directly run the international affairs. The king serves as a conduit to forward the aims the guilds decide upon.

 

Remaining nations would fit somewhere in the spectrum between these nations. Neuts gonna neut, pirates gonna pirate.

[hoarmurath]

Captains.. 

 

There were several proposals on the Navy officer role and we would like to discuss it in depth here.  Just to keep expectations clear.  We are of course not saying or promising this will be done. It is just a discussion.

 

Proposed Navy roles

 

Naval officer

• Works for the Admiralty of their respective country. yes, this seem logical
• Receives salary - does not make money by selling ships. they should get prize money for captured ships
• Does not pick ships - ships are assigned by the Admiralty randomly according to rank and achievements. ships, as upgrade officers, should be bought with points. Influence in admiralty should allow you some limited choice over your assignments
• Cannot capture ships - ships are sent to Admiralty for admiralty points. ok, seem logical, as long as they get prize money
• Does not hire crew - crews are supplied by the Admiralty with ships Yes, why not, as crew doesn't have a skill level
• Repairs are provided by Admiralty ok with that
• Has to fulfill duties  - must fight, must accept battles wrong wording, they have to fulfill missions, not all missions for naval officers have to be about fighting
• Top rated ships are assigned based on leaderboards depend on what you call top rated ships. First and second rate, certainly, third maybe, fourth should be normally available for port/trafalgar battles
• Upgrades/officers and unique content can be bought from the Admiralty store for points. Ships for the admiralty stores are supplied by crafters. why not, but shouldn't ships crafted by player be easier to get access to? Or reserved if they so chose?
• Can buy ships for himself if he has money (but those will be limited due to low salaries) Is a naval officer sailing its own ship still on duty?

Basically a combat class that does not think about the cash and is always supplied for combat. Ideal for the player who is not interested

 

Privateer/Pirate

• Works for himself buying a patent. Lettre de marque, yes
• Patent costs money per month Why not
• Can capture ships for himself Seem logical, but.. see below on the "sail any ship"
• Have to hire crew and pay salaries for the crew and officers this too seem logical
• Have to repair ships he has to pay for repairs, ok
• Can sail any ship if he can hire and support the crew IIRC, ships captured should be submitted to admiralty who could take possession of warships, with the privateer given the estimated value of the ship in money. Shouldn't it be used to limit access to top rated ships?

Crafter (support role but both officers and privateers can be crafters too)

• Makes ships for the admiralty and privateers Yes
• The guy with money Fame, girls, everything, ok

 

Admiralty

• Buys ships and upgrades from crafters OK, but a crafting naval officer should chose to get less money and instead receive store point? Or be given privilegied access to its own crafted ships?
• Supplies ships and upgrades to naval officers according to fame ratings OK why not

The drawback of this system is the lack of freedom.

Right now you can sail any ship you want and see and can buy or capture. In the defined roles scenarios most players won't be able 

 

When i craft, i like to use what i have crafted. Of course this doesn't mean i should sail anything i craft, but if i can craft something i can sail, i would like to be able to sail it... It's part of the fun...

[Destraex]

Edited my post a little. Especially with regard to groups and mission timeouts and penalties.

[Destraex]

So basically the naval officer gets everything for free and has to accept fights. It doesnt matter if you loose, you got everything for free anyways!

 

And the privateer has to work for all of it.

 

I love it! (but only if this combination for the naval officer will really happen.)

 

Puchu would you ever play a naval officer? I know you love your pirates.

[Magnum]

Merchant and Crafter would seem to me to be perfect for blending together into one toon, with Privateer/Letter of Marque another and NO a third.

 

So when you start the game:

 

1: you pick your nation.

2: you pick your three toons - one of each? two NO's and a Privateer? Two Privateers and a Trader/Crafter?

3: Play!

[OlavDeng2]

rated ship based on leaderboard? If i play 1 hour per  day in full pvp and win 4/5 on my battle i will not get reward when a guy making 5/15 victory playing 3 hours will get in front of me? Bwaaaa corean mmo on sight! It's like saying you don't care on player ability but just on time he spend on your game...

No hope for causals or random players to ever achieve their goal as there is alwais be people able to play more than them...

 

Not going in the good direction for the causal player I am

i doubt your right with your example... i would assume a person gets penilized for a loss as a result you would end up higher ranked with 4/5 victories than 5/15 victories.

 

also this comment "Bwaaa corean mmo on sight!" is childish and you cant tell how the game is going to be, like the admin said this is all a proposal, this could all change and since this is an alpha, even when it is implemented things can change.

[Hieronymous Alloy]

 

No hope for causals or random players to ever achieve their goal as there is alwais be people able to play more than them...

 

Yeah this is a concern too. A game like this -- especially, and I mean this kindly, given the fairly long development course this game has been on  since Sea Trials -- I play for a while, leave, come back later, etc. I like it but it's gonna spend months on the virtual shelf before I take it down again (kinda like Aubrey/Maturin, which I re-read every couple years). 

 

If I lose progress while I'm away or have my character harmed for inactivity that's going to blow. 

[Destraex]

P.s. My mate will probably play merchant while i play naval. How so we sail together?

[Alex Connor]

I do like the idea of careers, right now we're all playing privateer which instills the idea personal profit/protecting your own ship is more important than anything else. All these naval warships and no one is playing as the navy...

 

Naval officer

• Works for the Admiralty of their respective country.
• Receives salary - does not make money by selling ships. 
• Does not pick ships - ships are assigned by the Admiralty randomly according to rank and achievements. 
• Cannot capture ships - ships are sent to Admiralty for admiralty points.
• Does not hire crew - crews are supplied by the Admiralty with ships
• Repairs are provided by Admiralty
• Has to fulfill duties  - must fight, must accept battles
• Top rated ships are assigned based on leaderboards
• Upgrades/officers and unique content can be bought from the Admiralty store for points. Ships for the admiralty stores are supplied by crafters.
• Can buy ships for himself if he has money (but those will be limited due to low salaries)

Basically a combat class that does not think about the cash and is always supplied for combat. Ideal for the player who is not interested

 

Admiralty

• Buys ships and upgrades from crafters
• Supplies ships and upgrades to naval officers according to fame ratings

 

Some ideas,

 

• Instead of fixed assignment of ship, let players either request a type of command (frigate/SoL etc) or pick freely from available commands, based on their admiralty points (reputation?). (preserves choice/freedom)
• Was common for captains to be given command of a ship they captured, especially as reward if smaller ship captured larger opponent.
• Prize money from captured ships (2/8ths value only, other careers get the ship to sell)
• Navy supplies ships in "standard" condition, upgrades must be purchased from prize money (this is historical)
• Required to accept battle with any opponent of comparable force at penalty of (sizable) reputation loss, but not to throw away frigate fighting a 74 (of course, if you fight 74 and win the rewards are substantial)
• When you lose lose a ship the reputation used to get that ship will be returned to you, minus some for circumstance of loss.
• Lose an equal fight, moderate loss of reputation. Get ganked, a small penalty only (to prevent people just throwing away ships). Might even gain reputation if you put up a heroic fight. Lose to a weaker enemy, heavy loss of reputation.  
• Reputation loss from running from an equal/weaker opponent is as heavy as being beaten by them (gets people to fight)
• Restrict Naval officers from trade? Only a small quantity of personal cargo allowed, so that a Naval officer wishing to trade would be better using another character.
• Cannot become pirate due to crew loyalty (piratical actions will get you relieved of command and kicked out of navy instead)

The concept is that a naval officer serves their nation, and is provided with ships/men to do so in accord with their rank/reputation. In return, they are obliged to engage the enemy in any fight they have a reasonable chance of winning (but not obliged to throw ships away when hopelessly outgunned or outnumbered) 

 

Possible idea, works with but not required for above. If defeated, you are sent to nearest naval base (not every port is a naval base). Admiralty keeps this base supplied with ships/upgrades, etc, so we could have 1 dura ships and still have fast turnaround between fights. This puts a good captured ship (taken from player) on the same footing as a ship built by your nation, right now using a captured ship is a big disadvantage (even if it's a ship with good mods and 5 slots).

 

 

Privateer/Pirate

• Works for himself buying a patent.
• Patent costs money per month
• Can capture ships for himself
• Have to hire crew and pay salaries for the crew and officers
• Have to repair ships
• Can sail any ship if he can hire and support the crew

 

Separate Pirate from Privateer, flesh out both?

 

Privateer

• Letter of Marque (cost?)
• Owns ship, and captured ships
• Gets full prize money from captured ship (unlike Naval Officer)
• Pays for ship/repairs/crew
• Can buy insurance on ship (partial)
• Ships restricted only by cost (very unlikely but in theory you can own and sail a 1st rate)
• Can trade without limitation
• Can go pirate with ship

Naval officers serve their country first, and seek fame/fortune second. For a Privateer these priorities are reversed. Their preferred targets are merchantmen, more valuable cargoes with less of a fight, and they have no obligation to pick fights with warships (plus bigger risk from loss than a Naval Officer). Between this and the cost of buying/manning a large warship, the preferred ships of a privateer are sloop/schooner to frigate, anything larger would be overkill against merchantmen and probably not even as good at catching them.

 

Pirate

• Can attack any target
• Can use any ship taken
• Life of subterfuge and deception, can use false flags and papers even to enter enemy ports.
• Crew get shares of prizes taken instead of wage (have to strike a balance between crew size with the value of target taken)
• If crew becomes unhappy with you not taking prizes risk of mutiny and being marooned 
• Restricted from trade/building ships due to lack of resource ports (unless good at disguise)
• Can buy pardon, become privateer or merchant (but not Navy)
• Risk of getting hung if captured? Unless you can bribe your way out or escape.

Similar to privateers in that they will prefer smaller ships and targeting merchantmen over going head to head with the navy.

 

 

Crafter (support role but both officers and privateers can be crafters too)

• Makes ships for the admiralty and privateers
• The guy with money

 

Crafter  Merchant Captain/Shipwright

 

• Shipbuilding, unrestricted trade, contracts with Admiralty to build ships etc
• Can hire escorts (but not initiate combat when being escorted)
• Can send ships off on AI trading runs
• Build trade empire

Most points of privateers apply to merchant captains, indeed there is no formal distinction between a trader holding a Letter of Marque and a Privateer. Some players will focus on Privateering, some on trading, some will mix roles, perhaps running cargo but taking prizes of opportunity.

 

Characters may switch careers. Money carries over, progress partially carries over but you will lose some progress in old career even if you switch back, so constantly jumping around is not a good idea (better to have separate alts for different careers). The only hard restriction is no ex-pirates in the navy even if pardoned, and no taking admiralty owned ships out of the navy (except by capture).

[Destraex]

Alex in reality most naval missions were more like naval missions. They are one and the same. Navy ships often got told to patrol and hunt in a particular area for a particular period and that's it. No other restrictions.

Privateers also had their orders from their owners\financiers and they were generally the same as similar sized naval vessels.

Although Naval Missions were a lot more varied.

 

If we are going to be this restrictive then merchants can only ply routes assigned by the company owners as well.

[Balsafer]

3rd rates were pretty common ships I do not think they should be heavily restricted and I hope that is reflected with how the Devs are planning to limit ships.

[Magnum]

I think 3rd rates will be for Naval Personal only, and should be very useful for them to do missions in.

 

I hope a small navy might have a few while a larger navy would have a couple dozen up to the 100 or so that the RN had.

 

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https://books.google.com/books?id=I59v6rkg8egC&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq=fleet+size+europe+navies+1800&source=bl&ots=XTcGp4Im36&sig=U8rg2WN5NQjY_DpfSg6Dvj7VVRA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEcQ6AEwB2oVChMIh4qLmOztxwIVypqICh3mDgAt#v=onepage&q=fleet%20size%20europe%20navies%201800&f=false

 

[SeamanStaines]

I agree with the division of naval officers from the rest as I think it provides an opportunity to solve one of the biggest divisions amongst players concerning unequal combat. I would suggest navies operate unrestricted amongst other navies i.e. unequal combat permissible. The non-navy players have game mechanics imposed to prevent or equalize unequal battle instances.

[Magnum]

I agree with the division of naval officers from the rest as I think it provides an opportunity to solve one of the biggest divisions amongst players concerning unequal combat. I would suggest navies operate unrestricted amongst other navies i.e. unequal combat permissible. The non-navy players have game mechanics imposed to prevent or equalize unequal battle instances.

 

Actually if you are chugging along in your trader snow and an enemy Naval Frigate comes upon you - historically you would be toast, why shouldn't you be so in game?

 

I think we will see a shift in our views of ganking - when we have missions to perform and CONSEQUENCES to them not getting done, the Navy boys won't just be looking for anyone they can gank - they will have missions to get done. Also I really hope we see a reduction in 1st, 2nd and 3rd rates scouring every corner of the OW for prizes.

[Alex Connor]

Alex in reality most naval missions were more like naval missions. They are one and the same. Navy ships often got told to patrol and hunt in a particular area for a particular period and that's it. No other restrictions.

Privateers also had their orders from their owners\financiers and they were generally the same as similar sized naval vessels.

Although Naval Missions were a lot more varied.

 

If we are going to be this restrictive then merchants can only ply routes assigned by the company owners as well.

I did not mention naval missions? 

 

You are provided with ships to wage war, and the only order is to seek and and destroy the enemy wherever they may be found. And since you've only got that one order, failing that order by running from an encountered enemy you should reasonably be able to destroy is punished. Also no running around with a warship full of cargo, because your orders are to wage war, not trade.

 

Privateers don't have orders (at least if the captain owns the ship). They are simply waging war for profit. Merchantmen are more common than warships (10 to 1 at least, even in nations with large navies), carry more valuable cargoes and put up a lot less resistance. Most privateers will therefore hunt traders and avoid the navy, and sail ships suited for this.

[Blackjack Symons]

I think 3rd rates will be for Naval Personal only, and should be very useful for them to do missions in.

 

I hope a small navy might have a few while a larger navy would have a couple dozen up to the 100 or so that the RN had.

 

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https://books.google.com/books?id=I59v6rkg8egC&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq=fleet+size+europe+navies+1800&source=bl&ots=XTcGp4Im36&sig=U8rg2WN5NQjY_DpfSg6Dvj7VVRA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEcQ6AEwB2oVChMIh4qLmOztxwIVypqICh3mDgAt#v=onepage&q=fleet%20size%20europe%20navies%201800&f=false

 

Wow. In 1810, Britain accounted for 50% of the world's fleets by displacement. That's insane.

[Johny Reb]

The drawback of this system is the lack of freedom.

Right now you can sail any ship you want and see and can buy or capture. In the defined roles scenarios most players won't be able 

I appreciate the attempt to make the Naval Officer role my historically accurate but I have some minor concerns that I hope will be considered. First, though, I haven't read anyone's response so sorry if I repeat a recurring theme.

 

I'm concerned mostly with a true loss mechanic if ships are given away free and the lack of game play freedom if we are only allowed one character.

 

If the cost of replacement or some other form of true loss is not a part of loosing a fight then I think the class will develop into a pvp class but not a great one. The thrill of the best pvp games is not the ability to easily return to the fight but to know you have something to loose. The pve players often speak of not wanting to loose their hard earned ship. Well, pvp'ers also don't want to loose their ships either. The pain that the pve player and the pvp player that is felt is closely related. Only the willingness to loose their ship is different. So, in my opinion to make this class great then their needs to be some type of loss that is well designed.

 

That loss may be found in the availability of ships in the admirality to a particular Captain. Loosing a fight may mean you are reduced to sailing a frigate instead of a Connie. That would be true loss for the pvp'er but how do you balance that I don't know. The question is, how many fights must be lost in order to see a drop in the available ships. If the loss is to quick then it won't be fun but if the loss is to slow then there will be no loss mechanic at all making Naval Officer class pvp less than exciting for anything but large scale Port Battles.

 

The second concern is the number of characters or ships I am allowed to have. Heading in a more historical direction would make sense to allow only one ship per Captain but this limits the fun of the game and can make it quite boring if you are the guy with the mortar brig... if only one character is allowed. If this idea is implemented then please let us have more than one character or one boat. I really don't want to be told to leave a Port Battle because I don't have a rate and I don't want to be stuck in port with a rate because sailing alone in one is very dangerous. Both = boring game.

 

Your last sentence is satisfied by allowing more than one toon. I can raise one NO to be a frigate Captain and another to command a ship of the line. My third toon could be a privateer or a crafter.

 

I also think crafters should simply be crafters. Naval Officers aren't in the trading buisness and therefore shouldn't be crafting stuff. Privateers could probably get away with transporting some goods here and there at a limited rate, mostly due to their ship selection. Also, I think something like "Merchants" sounds better than calling them "crafters."

[William the Drake]

Can't believe I missed this topic, better late than never I guess.

Anywho, to start I will argue that the Naval Officer get a bit more freedom than admin has suggested

 

• Does not pick ships - ships are assigned by the Admiralty randomly according to rank and achievements. -> NOs can purchase their own ships, but also have access to stronger Naval Variants/refits (i.e. Navy Brig)
• Does not hire crew - crews are supplied by the Admiralty with ships ​-> Can hire custom crew for a higher price, otherwise Admiralty will provide a low-skilled press-gang crew at no charge
• Repairs are provided by Admiralty -> (Are we talking about kits or in-port repairs? In-port repairs yes,  a certain # of kits can be bought at a Naval discount)
• Has to fulfill duties  - must fight, must accept battles ​-> Missions will be given. Some can be ignored, others cannot. 
• Top rated ships are assigned based on leaderboards - Rates are assigned on activity and Mission Completion/success. Basically the most active and willing to accept mission from the Admiralty. 

I suggested my own system for classes and skills a while back. I think the more specialization we can offer, the more dynamic the game can be. : Skills, Specialization, and How the Player Plays.

 

As far as the Privateer/Pirate role, I think Privateering should be a more unique and fleshed out system than the one it was in PotBS. Concerning what is presented here,:

• Works for himself buying a patent. -> Only Priv must buy his patent
• Patent costs money per month -> Priv only
• Can capture ships for himself -> Pirate Only. Privs must list their captures in a prize court and will get a % commission from it, along with all cargo captured.

I think a unique Letter of Marque system could do a lot better than a simple Privateer class in this case. It could provide a clearer role for Privateers.

[Ronald Speirs]

Well this got crazy god knows how to make everyone happy, i dont like the proposal, i want the freedom to do what ever as thats all apart of the adventure, if i want to help my nation i will, if i want to craft i will, if i want that ship i will go get it, i dont really want to chop and change between roles, i know it will be more realistic but it can be to much of a good thing and to restricting, keep it simple as simple is easy.

[Ned Loe]

First of all, how many characters can you have per account? If more than 1 then this will work fine. I can lvl up Naval Officer who will sail big ships and then lvl up my Trader who will do econ in trader ships. However, if you can only have 1 character active, then we will have a problem. I would start creating ship trees for each class similar to World of Warships.  

[Magnum]

I remember in the sandbox with the tonka toys by little brother always wanted to be super organized with everyone in the sandbox helping him build a world of his vision .....

 

I ignored him and did what I wanted to do, which was to race tonka trucks and crash into what he built, sometimes he would get mad and quit.

 

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seems like where we are headed here.

[LeBoiteux]

OP's old suggestion about player roles was interesting IMO, especially the carrier of Naval officer (opposed to the current in-game 'carrier' one could call 'Privateer' (who buys his ships and earns money))  :

On 9/9/2015 at 12:05 PM, admin said:

Captains.. 

 

There were several proposals on the Navy officer role and we would like to discuss it in depth here.  Just to keep expectations clear.  We are of course not saying or promising this will be done. It is just a discussion.

 

Proposed Navy roles

 

Naval officer

• Works for the Admiralty of their respective country.
• Receives salary - does not make money by selling ships. 
• Does not pick ships - ships are assigned by the Admiralty randomly according to rank and achievements. 
• Cannot capture ships - ships are sent to Admiralty for admiralty points.
• Does not hire crew - crews are supplied by the Admiralty with ships
• Repairs are provided by Admiralty
• Has to fulfill duties  - must fight, must accept battles
• Top rated ships are assigned based on leaderboards
• Upgrades/officers and unique content can be bought from the Admiralty store for points. Ships for the admiralty stores are supplied by crafters.
• Can buy ships for himself if he has money (but those will be limited due to low salaries)

Basically a combat class that does not think about the cash and is always supplied for combat. Ideal for the player who is not interested

 

Privateer/Pirate

• Works for himself buying a patent.
• Patent costs money per month
• Can capture ships for himself
• Have to hire crew and pay salaries for the crew and officers
• Have to repair ships
• Can sail any ship if he can hire and support the crew

Can't it be adapted to the current state of the game ?

For example, I like the idea of the following game mode : the player is given one ship at a time he does not chose nor owned -- a ship 'lend' by the Admiralty -- and a mission. Why not the most 'plain' ship without upgrade, nor books...

• If he fulfills it, he earns XP and embarks a new ship randomly chosen between all the ships in-game (meaning the new ship can be smaller than the previous one) and he gets a new mission while the admiralty recovers the previously-used ship. Etc.
• if he doesn't fulfill it, he embarks a smaller ship and gets a new mission.

It could be a temporary carrier, meaning the officier can become a privateer whenever he wants and vice versa.

At the end of his carrier, the officer has no ship, only his earned XP (or why not also a pay ?).

This officer carrer could also be unlocked after a given rank.

 

Edited December 11, 2018 by LeBoiteux