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Ronin00

Shallows, Shallows, Shallows.

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Hopefully this is is the correct category.

I hope, with every fiber of my being, that the devs get rid of shallows. I recently just found myself in the port of Saint Nicolas with shallows on my left and right so ridiculously close together, and the wind blowing directly at me, that I couldn't get out of the bay. Not only that but this feature is more tedious than it is realistic. There are countless ports I have trouble accessing even though they have nothing around them. I once even had problems entering Bahia Honda due to shallows yet I was straight in front of it.

Thoughts? 

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Shallows is what stops you from sailing into the islands, so they can't get rid of them.  You can easily get out of St. Nicholas if the wind is against you.  You just have to make short zig zags.  This is a feature in my opinion.

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Real life is actually far more "realistic" than that.  Imagine being stuck for a week or more in a port because the wind was contrary to the port entrance.  This even happened at some of England's largest ports.

 

Personally, I like shallows.  They make it necessary to have local knowledge to operate into/out of a port very well.

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Real life is actually far more "realistic" than that.  Imagine being stuck for a week or more in a port because the wind was contrary to the port entrance.  This even happened at some of England's largest ports.

 

Personally, I like shallows.  They make it necessary to have local knowledge to operate into/out of a port very well.

 

In real life you would run aground on the shore. It's ashame that the "OW" fight lobby doesn't have that capability.

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Shallows suck! But for realism perhaps we should feed our crew and make sure the latrines are all clean? Oh, and the amount of ammo we use, and mutinies, and 1000 other real things we can do without for fun factor :)

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Shallows don't earn their keep yet, because a First Rate can attack and sink a brig that is sitting on a reef.

 

If water depth could prevent larger ships from entering instances, then they would be worthwhile.

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Real life is actually far more "realistic" than that.  Imagine being stuck for a week or more in a port because the wind was contrary to the port entrance.  This even happened at some of England's largest ports.

 

Personally, I like shallows.  They make it necessary to have local knowledge to operate into/out of a port very well.

I understand and agree with you on that, but in this game the wind constantly has a mind of it's own, there is no way to know ahead of time where it will blow from. As for the shallows, like I said, I was stuck sailing into a port that had it's shores going straight left and right, yet I was hitting shallows even though I was a few inches from the tip of the dock. No matter which way I turned I couldn't enter the port even though I was right next to it.

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Shallows is what stops you from sailing into the islands, so they can't get rid of them.  You can easily get out of St. Nicholas if the wind is against you.  You just have to make short zig zags.  This is a feature in my opinion.

No you can't, that's the thing I tried zig zagging but every time I turned my ship I was already hitting shallows without even moving, I was just flat stuck, even though I was "miles" away from shore, I was still hitting shallows on both sides simultaneously.

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Try hitting the home key and use WASD to look underneath the water.  When you see the actual contours of the bottom, you'll be able to spot a safe passage.  Some of my fondest memories of sailing were due to shallows.  I was exploring along the south coast of Cuba in a Bellona, and spotted two outcroppings of shallows just southwest of Cochinos.  I avoided the shallows and continued heading west... only to find that I'd stumbled into a huge bay of shallows, with no way to get through.  I had to tack my way back, directly upwind, then work my way many kilometers south before I could resume my journey.  That was the most memorable navigational hazard I've overcome, and it made arriving at my destination all the sweeter.

 

Lastly, the wind isn't unpredictable.  It rotates at a constant rate, continuously, both in instances and in the overworld.  The only time you don't know the wind is when you're in port.  And yeah, that's kind of annoying that I cannot tell if the wind is favorable for starting a voyage or not.

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No you can't, that's the thing I tried zig zagging but every time I turned my ship I was already hitting shallows without even moving, I was just flat stuck, even though I was "miles" away from shore, I was still hitting shallows on both sides simultaneously.

 

Have you seen a bathymetric graph of the Bahamas?  It's actually like that.  An extremely impressive bit of geology there.  They used to have dedicated "wrecker" cutters on the Bahama Bank that existed solely to assist ships in getting back into deeper water when (not if, WHEN) they grounded.

 

If shallows would translate into instances, that would be amazing.

 

This is a goal of the Dev Team.  They'd like the area you're in to be generated into the battle instance.

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I like the idea of Shallows but I feel they should be better represented in OW, ie. more visible (breaking waves etc...), and I certainly agree that shallows should be represented in battle maps, but then again so should the shore line.

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I hope they will stick with it and improve it. Get rid of the blocks and change them to more smooth curvey passages and have them be much more gradual changes.

Add a depth sounding system in the form of a man sounding the depth.

Also give ships a queue when they try to get into a shallow water port if they are never going to make it.... a shore signal or something, a flare advising no passage.

 

Most of all damage the ships or beach them requiring ships to pay to get off the sand or have a friend tow them. 

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There's a huge area of shallows SW of Jamaica down towards Honduras/Nicaragua....real pain in the arse to go around or through even in a Lynx.....seems too big an area to be justified in my view, for what it's worth :).

 

Anyway, the concept of shallows, narrow channels into port, wind against etc I don't have any problem with per se. They give good flavour. I do however agree with the OP that there are time when you get stuck against the dock between shallows and cant dock or move....surely that close to the dockside there would be enough water to allow one in?

 

Unless.....it's low tide? Are tides in the design I wonder? Another level of seamanship will be required then :)

 

Edit: Like the idea of being able to swing the lead and take soundings.

Edited by Normalguy

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:P Shallows suck - and sailing against the wind sucks - having to bother with manual sails is also sucky.

And reload times??!!! What's with that? Surely it'd be better to have instant reloads and perhaps even lazer cannon?

Edited by mouse of war

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No you can't, that's the thing I tried zig zagging but every time I turned my ship I was already hitting shallows without even moving, I was just flat stuck, even though I was "miles" away from shore, I was still hitting shallows on both sides simultaneously.

 

 

Yes you can, I've been through that port plenty of times with large ships.  I've had to zig zag in sols at that port.

 

 

I understand and agree with you on that, but in this game the wind constantly has a mind of it's own, there is no way to know ahead of time where it will blow from. As for the shallows, like I said, I was stuck sailing into a port that had it's shores going straight left and right, yet I was hitting shallows even though I was a few inches from the tip of the dock. No matter which way I turned I couldn't enter the port even though I was right next to it.

 

 

The wind does not have a mind of its own.  You can always predict it with 100% accuracy, because it does the same exact thing 24/7/365.  It moves the exact same amount every few seconds.  It is an unrelenting and unchanging force.

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I hope they will stick with it and improve it. Get rid of the blocks and change them to more smooth curvey passages and have them be much more gradual changes.

Add a depth sounding system in the form of a man sounding the depth.

Also give ships a queue when they try to get into a shallow water port if they are never going to make it.... a shore signal or something, a flare advising no passage.

 

Most of all damage the ships or beach them requiring ships to pay to get off the sand or have a friend tow them.

Quite often, ships were able to get themselves off. Either through lightening the load, waiting for the next high tide, etc. While sometimes other ships were employed, most often a ship that grounded was able to get itself unstuck, though it may have had to wait up to a month for the next full tide.

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I hate the idea of shallows as well, its a good idea in theory, but how its implemented its mainly just a nuisance with no positive benifits, its just there to frustrate players and eventually even the most happy go lucky role players will tire of them.

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I hate the idea of shallows as well, its a good idea in theory, but how its implemented its mainly just a nuisance with no positive benifits, its just there to frustrate players and eventually even the most happy go lucky role players will tire of them.

 

 

How are there no positive benefits?  A person who has local knowledge of the shallows can easily trap or escape from those who don't.  That is a huge major plus in my opinion.  What other local knowledge can there really be except for shallows?  It is the one thing that is hardest to map accurately and can mean the difference between getting away or getting caught.

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Here is my take on shallows: They are, just as wind and weather are,  a very much integral part of the age of sail and should absolutely have an in game function. This is a feature beyond the "realism v gameplay" argument. I realize that that attempting to enter a shallow bay against the wind can be frustrating, but these are fundamental hazards faced by the captain of a sailing ship. If you are stuck, go to a different port and come back when the wind is favorable, it does not take long for the wind to clock around. In the Caribbean shallows should play a prominent role in certain areas (Bahamas, etc.). For example pirates could sail out from a shallow anchorage in their fast, smaller privateer or brig to attack a large merchantman or run into the shallows  to escape a navy frigate. Shallows should put limits on the larger ships (SoLs) and confer an advantage to the smaller ships (Lynx, cutter, etc).

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How are there no positive benefits?  A person who has local knowledge of the shallows can easily trap or escape from those who don't.  That is a huge major plus in my opinion.  What other local knowledge can there really be except for shallows?  It is the one thing that is hardest to map accurately and can mean the difference between getting away or getting caught.

It all sounds good from a message board setting, but in the actual game all I see are people rotating just outside of many ports and I've literlly never seen a single instance of a great escape because of them, it seems like 99% of the time they won't have any benefit to any player.

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