admin Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Battle Royale mechanic exists in Arma and several other somewhat realistic games. Current problem of the circle is that it start shrinking early and is too fast in the beginning. Also there are no victory conditions.. Perhaps if BR difference of both sides exceed certain % (after destruction of most enemies) then victory is declared for the winning side and all participants can exit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlavDeng2 Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 A bit later than everyone else but here is the trafalgar video: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Battle Royale mechanic exists in Arma and several other somewhat realistic games. Hey, we know you like it, but it is particularly awkard and immersion killing in a sailing game. Plus, in last battle we were all having fun and actively fighting and instead had to stop what we were doing to either flee magic circle or just watch helplessly as it steadily pulled away from us and we got killed by the game instead of other players. Current problem of the circle is that it start shrinking early and is too fast in the beginning. Definitely one of the many problems. But even slower it still would have interrupted the natural flow of a battle where most (if not all) players were actively fighting.Also there are no victory conditions.. Perhaps if BR difference of both sides exceed certain % (after destruction of most enemies) then victory is declared for the winning side and all participants can exit. This is the real issue. Not sure if that is the ideal solution, but it would be better and function more naturally than the circle. Where was that thread where we were brainstorming other solutions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Sharpe Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) I agree with almost all of what akd said. Having that circle constrict during an otherwise fun Trafalgar was the single worst experience I've had in this game so far. Everyone was engaged and fighting, and yet about 50% of participants were killed by a game mechanic. I can't reconcile the direction of the devs on this: On one side of the spectrum, player ships within instances are allowed to repair sails 30% up to 3 times, vastly enhancing their ability to run from combat. On the other side of the spectrum, players participating in mass battles are corralled into an ahistorical battle royale circle, to promote close range pummeling at the expense of sailing acumen. I still believe Caldwell's suggestion of each ship having its own "battle activity timer" to be the cleanest solution, however if the devs insist on having a circle, may I suggest one of the following: ----- Proposal 1) A constricting circle exists, and if you are outside of it after the 5 minutes elapses you are considered "eliminated" from the BR calculations of who is surviving. You may still participate - but at a certain BR ratio, when one side achieves BR superiority, the battle is considered won. This marries the circle with another idea the admin mentioned here (a good one IMO) about a running BR calculation and declaring a winner at a certain point. Under this system, ships will still be highly incentivized to remain in the circle, as nobody wants to be "that guy" who costs his team valuable BR needed for the victory. However, the penalty is not as harsh and "gamey" as having one's ship sink magically and losing a durability. ----- Proposal 2) A constricting circle exists, however if your ship is outside the circle but making movement in a general direction towards the inside of the circle, the timer is paused. Players should not be punished for attempting to move back into the circle. If you watch the video of the last Traf, for 3 minutes I was beating upwind to try to get into the circle, which was moving at about 5 knots and I was moving at 6. The timer elapsed as I crossed into the circle and I was killed. Not only was I penalized for seemingly nothing in the first place (I was engaged with two enemy frigates when the circle started closing and decided I wasn't in the "action" enough), I remained penalized even as I did everything I could to rectify the situation. This is silly. ----- No matter what is chosen, admin is correct that the circle closes too fast, and begins closing too early. It also closes to an end state of far too small at the end of the battle. If the circle is to be kept (which I still argue is a huge mistake and will turn off many age of sail enthusiasts; Caldwell's proposal is the best to promote combat) then I would like to see something like Proposal 1, where the circle can influence the battle outcome, but not so directly influence the experience of a player actively engaged in combat. Or, not have the circle move at all, and have it remain at the dimensions present at the onset. This would not be so bad either, as at least maneuvers could be planned around something stationary. Edited November 4, 2015 by 'Sharpe 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laik Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Circle was introduced because people ran away from a fight to not lose their precious durability. Why not simply introduce a battle timer in the events like one in the open world? Possibly with longer duration (5 minutes?). I think this alone would solve a lot of problems without the need to introduce complicated and possibly flawed systems. Also there are no victory conditions.. Perhaps if BR difference of both sides exceed certain % (after destruction of most enemies) then victory is declared for the winning side and all participants can exit. I don't think this is the way to go. Why deny people a chance to achieve a total victory (like sinking all of the enemies?). Running issues are very much exclusive to the losing side, therefore it's the winning side that suffers the frustration. Better way to handle a system like this would be, in my opinion, to allow only the victorious side to leave without penalty (like losing the prizes) after the victory is declared (to save time in the instance of someone purposefuly running to frustrate opposition) or remain in battle and try to finish the job (battle timers included, to prevent people staying in battle then leaving when they are about to sink). Or better still is a zone around a single ship.... if that ship is not involved in combat at X radius or in Y time a counter starts to warn the player his ship will flounder and sink soon. What about people who get demasted and are left far behind the fight? These is potentially frustating and easy to game I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelSandwich Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Unfortuanly your second proposal is not solid sharpe. I mean, when i get out of the circle ill just point my nose towards the wind and drop sail to 20% and wait for the circle to close in even further. I'll be outside the circle yet i won't die, since i am trying to get back, all be it with 20% sail. Noone will ever be able to touch me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admin Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Exit timer would solve most of the problems of the battle circle. The only problem that will stay is potential tagging of heavier vessels by light ships. For example.. enemy fleet instead of engaging sails away from you forever, but their light vessels keep your front ships tagged. If most of your fleet exit at the crucial moment your front ships will sink without being able to do anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 For events / port battles, put the timer on teams, not individuals? found my post from previous discussion: All or nothing wins is the core motivation behind this behavior. Even with battle circle, all or nothing wins still encourage griefing. You make it harder to run or avoid combat, but given all or nothing conditions, then a player that is faced with certain and quick defeat if they fight and no possibility of retreat is still encouraged to draw out the match as long as possible to maximize time consumption and frustration for the winning team. Battle circle is just an ugly bandaid for the core problem. Instead of battle circle, why not add combat timer for teams (rather than individuals). If it runs down without combat (i.e. if no players on one team are engaged in combat for X minutes, possibly with a range threshold), players can exit and team with advantage is credited with a win. If someone wants to run and save their ship, let them, just acknowledge that retreat is a form of defeat. Give XP and gold bonus to winning team so that fighting and then retreating is not as advantageous as fighting and winning. p.s. timer should probably not kick in until 10 minutes or so into match or until after first combat, just to make sure teams have time to form up and maneuver some if they chose not to charge right in. Also, there may need to be a penalty (court martial!) placed on players who join matches and then eventually exit without fighting, or after dealing or receiving only token damage. There will inevitably be people who intentionally grief their own team by not helping. Battle circle doesn't solve this and it was seen even in sea trials. Battle circle just draws out their eventual punishment (durability loss) while still ruining the match for both teams (their own team is denied help, the other team is held in the match until they are hunted down.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admin Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Tomorrow we will make it stay fixed size until last 5 mins of the battle and will rework it fully after port battles. But IT WILL decrease a lot during last 5 mins. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlavDeng2 Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Tomorrow we will make it stay fixed size until last 5 mins of the battle and will rework it fully after port battles. But IT WILL decrease a lot during last 5 mins. even if it decreases a lot during last 5 min, it is better than people having to start running away from it after 30-45 min Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlavDeng2 Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Got video up of the latest trafalgar, that ring is a very annoying issue and hard to get that one right 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandonchat Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 The Trafalgar of 7-11-2015 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admin Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 We could not switch the battle circle fast (it would have required to rebuild the client) so we just changed the battle timer to 55 mins. When circle of death starts you will be able to exit the battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques de Montagne Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Thank you! Last time is was already fine, as you can notice by the lack of the usual complaints, still this will remove some of the undue stress from the captains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlavDeng2 Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 Video of saturdays trafalgar is up, sorry for cutting it early but want to avoid politics on my youtube channel 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques de Montagne Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) What did you guys think about the last two Trafalgars? There have been lots of changes - two hotly debated topics have been the balance and the circle of death mechanics. While I am at this... 1. What would increase your fun in those battles with the current game mechanics? 2. What would be great to have beyond the current features? See also Booyah's http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/7473-trafalgar-event-room-improvements/ 3. How do you like the current balance, should battle rating or number of players be the decicive factor? 4. Would you like a similar, second weekly event? It didnt work before, what do you think would make it work? 5. What made you stop attending the Trafalgars or why do you think people do not attend them? Edited November 16, 2015 by Jacob de Montagne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlavDeng2 Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 1. I think the games are too much about just rushing in now, decreasing the fun, it is too much of a brawl and too litle tactics(i think) 2. definetly allowing us to take care of balance somehow 3. Battlerating is definetly important, i would like to see a tightning of the match making however i am afraid we will leave people out again, this could all be fixed by allowing us to do the balancing 4. i personally think it would be cool but dont think we could do it with the current amount of people 5. i am always there but i find them less fun now that it is all rush in than before when we did line fighting, i feel tactics arent important enough now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlavDeng2 Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 (edited) Ok here comes the suggestions from this trafalgar: 1. Stop with the nation match making, just do what we had in sea trials, dont care about specific match making for keeping nations in one team, it messes up the match making massively and is not balanced nor fun, and i dont want people to be left out 2. second option, allow us to vote one person to be the match maker, if this person has the majority vote he can choose who goes on what team to get a good battles 3. higher the battle rating of 1st rate by about 100(or more) or something, it is way too low and messes up battle rating the same goes for the third rate, bellona and pavel except not as much.. 4. again, a larger circle with it decreasing massively in the last moment. 5. short the players by ship they are sailing again, from big to small(santi at top, yacht at bottom) This Match Maker is not fair, not at all this is shitty match making and should never happen Battlerating for Enemy: 4850 Battlerating for us: 4520 However, even though we had a smaller battlerating, our quality of ships is lower Their ships of line : 4280 Our ships of line: 2650 Ships of line are not comparable to frigates, they destroy frigates, and further on that topic, first rates destroy the bellonas and pavels, this does not seem balanced what so ever, sure the battle rating is similar, the ship quality is vastly different. edit: this is all gotten together with the help of people on the teamspeak, but do note that these are my opinions. Also, thank you konali for the picture o/ Edited November 21, 2015 by OlavDeng2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelSandwich Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 (edited) From the image Olav posted, the following BR can be extracted: 6 Santi 1980 / 2 Santi 660 3 Vic 900 / 3 Vic 900 0 Pavel 0 / 3 Pavel 810 2 Bell 560 / 1 Bell 280 3 3rd-rate 840 / 0 3rd-rate 0 0 Connie 0 / 5 Connie 1250 3 BP 150 / 1 BP 150 0 Frig 0 / 3 Frig 450 1 Surp 100 / 0 Surp 0 1 Priv 20 / 1 Yacht 20 Total BR is 4820 V 4520, which is fine. YET! When you count the BR of the SOL's: 4280 V 2650. It is simply outrages that connies have such a high BR that they are counted as an equivalent to a SOL. EDIT: Or SOL's such low BR! Connie = 250 Pavel = 270 Bellona = 280 Does anyone seriously think in a large line battle like the trafalgar of tonight, that a connie is nearly exactly equal to a Pavel? Or a Bellona? With that said, reintroduce the ability to see which ships are in queue, it's needed in order to pre-balance the groups. Edited November 21, 2015 by SteelSandwich 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 It was really bad bad balancing. The Connie's BR is only half of it though, both first rates have a way too small BR to represent their utter 'OPedness' - they need to have at least twice what they have now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlavDeng2 Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Video of the trafalgar... it was definetly not fun 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niels Terkildsen Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Just as a side note. I really don't like the medieval French and English flags used right now: how about having each side use the flag of the nation that's most numerous? In case the same nation dominates both teams (which is unlikely), perhaps use the second largest nation's flag for one of them; or an alternative would be, in that case, to use other flags like the current ones or the pirate flag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karacho Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 (edited) Its remarkabel how you can ruin a nearly perfect system. In sea trials the battles did feel really balanced and big battles were always fun and interessting. Skill and Teamwork did really matter. Its a pain to see the struggle now. Edited November 23, 2015 by karacho 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tac Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 (edited) Excellent trafalgar last night,most enjoyable and considerably improved from the last few. Edited November 29, 2015 by Tac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlavDeng2 Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Here is a video of the last trafalgar: Dont know when brandon will be uploading his. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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