Is the UGG forum dead?

[David Fair]

Anyone have anything Civil War-related interesting to contribute?

 

 

[Lincolns Mullet]

I spent pretty much all of my spare time helping with the latest patch, so once that was out I took a break (and have been very busy!). I'm itching to get back into UGG though.

 

It's unfortunate that Civil War history has suddenly become a hot topic over a tragedy here in the US.  It's not surprising though.

[Jeremiah O'Brien]

I spent pretty much all of my spare time helping with the latest patch, so once that was out I took a break (and have been very busy!). I'm itching to get back into UGG though.

 

It's unfortunate that Civil War history has suddenly become a hot topic over a tragedy here in the US.  It's not surprising though.

It has nothing to do with history, really. It's a flag. People need to get past that and realize that flags are just pieces of cloth. But, as always, our society would rather make new, petty problems rather than focus on the real ones. It's quite sad.

[William the Drake]

I live in a southern state. I was born and raised in a city with numerous monuments and commemorations of Confederate leaders, in a manner that is very much prideful in nature. I, for one, believe that the reexamination of the importance and pertinence of these memorials and symbols is long overdue, as I have seen and heard the tension they can cause first-hand.

 

This said, GL has my full support for getting UGG back up and running; It is a superb strategy game that portrays the Confederate Flag in its historical setting.

As a corporation, apple has the right to remove content as it sees fit, and I believe what this is is simply an initial, reactionary purge, albeit rash, for anything that depicts the Virginia Battle Standard. If their is an appeals process, take it, and I think you should have little issue getting the game back up. 

[David Fair]

Jeremiah O'Brien,

 

The deaths of 9 black people shot to death while they worship in church is a "petty problem"?

 

Clearly you've confirmed your "Location at Sea" - possibly on a sea in a galaxy far, far away.

 

The flag you're defending as benign is steeped in 150 years of overt acts of terrorism, violence, and white supremacy propaganda.  

 

The South chose the bullet over the ballot box in 1864.  After the South lost a war, then it subverted the ballot box with 150 years of policy of racial injustice.  Unfortunately the symbol adopted by this movement was the Confederate Battle Flag.  Dylann Roof chose THIS flag because it represents his beliefs as it has also represented the beliefs of hate organization such as the KKK.  

 

This has everything to do with history, and the history of the Confederate Battle Flag in particular.  

 

This problem of racial violence is neither "new" nor "petty".  

 

Anyone driving past the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church displaying the Confederate Battle Flag and honking their horn is making a clear and undeniable statement in support of Dylann's attack.  Black churches are regularly threatened/attacked with burning crosses, Confederate Battle Flags, overt and obfuscated racism.  

 

Attempting to deny or mitigate the powerful symbolism of the flag is a shoddy argument given the history.  Particularly in the context of recent events.

 

The flag has its proper context in history of the American Civil War.  This is the only ground that that flag can be defended upon is the historical context of the 3 years while it was carried on the battlefield.

[soreloser]

The last I heard this is still the United States of America !  Able to show, say, or believe anything you d-mb well please !!!!!!

[David Fair]

One of the privileges of being an American is the right of free speech.  

 

Confusing that right as license to kill black folks under the guise of "free speech" is ludicrous.  

 

Individual rights of free speech are different from the responsibilities of state government to be inclusive and open to all.

 

Unfortunately the rebel battle flag has become a symbol of hatred and racial divisiveness - thus it fails to meet the standards as an appropriate symbol of government inclusiveness and openness.

 

soreloser, nobody expects people to change what they d-mb well believe.  Part of being American is accepting that there are people that lack the capacity to understand the nuances of the free speech dialog.

 

But it is reasonable to expect that people will exercise rights in a way that does not inflict injury or death on Americans that see the world differently. !!!!!!

[soreloser]

Mr. Fair .... you may have noticed there are quite a few people who SEE THE WORLD differently than you !  That scrap of cloth (C.S.A. flag) has become again a sign of rebellion... against media, government, and folks like yourself who want to force there way of thinking on others !  Good day to you sir.

[David Fair]

Soreloser, nice dodge of the issue.  

 

First of all nobody is forcing anything on anyone.  We are simply have a dialog in a civil war forum.  

 

An ostrich sees the world differently than me as well, but I don't think that's a  logical argument for suggesting I don't understand that others see the world differently than me.  Let's hold that truth to be self-evident.

 

Your post is a bit curious - suggesting that a government building should fly a flag that represents rebellion against media, government, and folks like myself seems a bit counter-intuitive.  Are you suggesting that the government should rebel against the government, media, and folks like me?

 

Hmmm, I thought we had a representative democratic government that is inclusive.

 

I get it - quite a few people don't approve of an inclusive government that accepts racial diversity.  

 

While I don't agree with all that democracy implies maintaining civil relations seems like a reasonable goal to respectfully disagree on issues.  

 

I applaud the multiple uses of the flag and the diversity in the meaning it has for various folks.  

I defend absolutely your right to see in the flag what you want to see.

 

It is healthy to have a dialog and rebel against media, government, and folks like myself who tolerate multiple perspectives on the use of symbolism.

 

But the issue is not what you or I see in the flag or even the multiple interpretations of the flag.  

 

It is about flying the flag on government buildings; where, for a large minority segment of the population, that flag represents oppression, slavery, white supremacy, etc...

 

Why do they see it that way?  

Because 13% of America's citizens were at one time slaves.

Because the KKK flew that flag in Selma Alabama on Bloody Sunday March 7, 1965.

Because folks like Dillon Roof photographed himself with the flag then murdered 9 people in Charleston.

Because there are hundreds of terrorist acts carried out on a racial basis against American citizens under that banner.

Because as a nation, we subscribed to the notion, that "all men are created equal."  

 

 

In high school I kept a Confederate flag in my room - but I've taken it down - there is just too much baggage associated with that symbol for my taste.  I guess I'm guilty of growing up and having a view of the world that acknowledges there are people who don't see the world the way I do.  I strive to give others respect for their perspectives as well.

 

I respect your right to continue to fly the flag regardless of what you see in the flag.  

It doesn't matter to me if you are a white supremacist, an ostrich, or a civil war enthusiast - good on 'ya mate. 

 

Good day to you as well and have a wonderful Thanksgiving.  

 

God bless America and the folks of all races who serve in uniform to protect this nation.

[David Fair]

Can anyone enlighten me on the connection between the CSA battle flag and a rebellion against the media?

 

During the entire Civil War the Confederate Government never censored so much a single glyph in the media.  

 

Robert Rhett's, Charleston Mercury Newspaper, railed against the Federal Government for more than a decade prior to the Civil War.  Once the Confederacy was formed he railed against the Confederate Government, Jeff Davis, a long list of incompetent Southern generals (including, in Rhett's rhetoric, the King of Spades - Robert E. Lee).  

 

It wasn't until a regiment from the Army of Northern Virginia was assigned to duty in Charleston that Rhett's printing presses were silenced...smashed by the soldiers who had had enough of Rhett's blathering against the cause for which so many Southerners gave their last full measure of devotion.

 

Conversely, the Union suppressed the media routinely during the war.

 

So if follows that if you are looking for a symbol that represents the repression or suppression of the media that you would identify an appropriate banner with a historical factual connection between the symbol and the act of media suppression.  

 

Seems like a logical argument.

 

If the theme of rebellion is important then the "Don't Tread on Me" flag or the American Flag in the "Betsy Ross" 13 stars, might fit your desired rebellion symbolism without the implication of white supremacy.  

 

Alternatively, flying the 35-Star Union Flag of the Civil War, possibly even upside down, might convey your desire to suppress and rebel against the media.  The Union routinely censored the media.  It's generals including Meade and Sherman silenced individual reporters and the media generally by physically tossing them out of camp or breaking up their printing presses.

 

So it follows that these flags have more of a historical connection and a nexus between your issue and the historical significance of the banner.  

 

So why not choose one of these flags?

 

Need a more contemporary flag?  No problem!  How about the Alaska state flag for the Palin'ites out there. 

 

The Confederate Battle Flag is not related to or relevant historically vis a vis suppression of the media or a popular rebellion against the media today.  

 

So, I can only suspect that the reason to defend the Confederate Battle Flag in a 'revolution against the media' context is because THAT flag means something broader than the simple list of issue you've outlined above.

 

One of the most fascinating conversations I've ever had was with a man who stated he was a confirmed member of the KKK.  He quoted scripture that the natural condition of the races was ordained by god.  Interestingly, though he could quote scripture, he couldn't find where exactly in the Bible this proposition was actually stated.  We looked for over an hour.  Many of this other arguments seemed equally flimsy to me.  Did he use a computer?  Yep!  Was he using and Intel microprocessor?  Yep!  Why was he embracing technology from a company run by an immigrant Hungarian Jew for his racial tirades?  

 

Silence...

 

What I admired about this man was that he had the intellectual integrity to admit he was a racist.  Secondly, he had the courage to stand up and state his beliefs.  He did not cower behind illusory "masses that disagree with you."  He proudly stood up and stated, "I'm a racist and this is how, "I SEE THE WORLD!"  It made no difference to him that Catholics, Jews, and people of all races contributed to the technology base that he lacked the creativity to invent himself; but used freely to spew his vitriol.  

 

At the end of our conversation he acknowledged that few of his arguments were illogical or had no basis in fact - but he was still proud to be a confirmed racist.  To this day I'm puzzled by his basis for believing in his natural superiority.  

 

Part of ending the divisiveness of the Confederate legacy is to have the intellectual integrity, honesty, and moral fortitude not to skulk behind some ethereal "there are masses who see the world differently" obfuscation.  

 

It is high time for America to "man-up" for a debate on the use of the Confederate flag in government.

 

I admired the KKK for standing up to endorse flying the Confederate Battle Flag on government buildings in South Carolina.

No action by any other group could more clearly and effectively frame the issue on the use of that flag.  

By taking their racial hated to the street it left little room for debate on the symbolism of the flag.

The agenda of the symbolism was exposed in the light of day and the flag came down.

Bravo for Apple for making a stand for their beliefs as well.  

 

Note - From a marketing perspective the KKK needs a serious reexamination of their public message.  

The best thing they could have done to preserve their beloved symbol on government buildings is to remain silent.  

Unfortunately for their cause they seem to lack the political savvy to know when silence is their best policy.

 

It is funny how much the debate on the flag is reminiscent of the Civil War.  150 years ago slavery was a Constitutionally protected fact.  The only way to abolish slavery was by Constitutional amendment; requiring 2/3 Congressional approval.  

 

By firing on Fort Sumter and continuing to fight long after the cause was lost the South may have done the "honorable" thing - but they lost all that they valued for their continued obstinance.  As the butcher's bill mounted so did the North's determination to crush the fact of slavery, the Southern slave culture, and the economic basis for slavery.  

 

For those of you interested Robert E. Lee's letters are very interesting reading - particularly his writing after the Civil War.  His family's slaves just didn't seem to understand how much better off they were under the slave system; and this honestly seems to have confounded the general.   Lee struggled after the war with his notions of evangelical Christian beliefs.  God rewards those following his word; and punishes those who fail.  The South was about as thoroughly punished as was possible at the end with Union armies marching unopposed anywhere they wanted to go.  Lee devoted a significant amount of ink and paper to reconciling his religion with the defeat of the South.

 

This reading really makes you feel sorry for the man.  

 

After the war General Johnston was on a riverboat where he heard a number of young men boasting about how they would whip the Union in a rematch.  The men were all of military age for the conflict and Johnston inquired where they had served during the war.  Each of the men boasting had been exempted from serving on account of their families owning more than 20 slaves.  Johnston was quick to criticize men who were absent in war but indefatigable in defeat.  He informed the men who he was and stated the only reason they had not been whipped is that they hadn't served.  He stated that as a general he and his men had been thoroughly whipped - as badly as a man could be whipped and survive.  

 

Johnston relates that he was glad to see the banner furled and wanted no further part of revolution.  

 

I've worked with a company founded by a Croatian and staffed with many native Croatians - anyone with first-hand knowledge of revolution is very cautious regarding the appeal of revolution and revolutionary symbolism.

 

There are more effective (and logical) methods to respond to the media than the Confederate Battle Flag.

 

Cheers...

[soreloser]

Whew! All that!     One post has you saying ... I applaud the multiple uses of the flag and the diversity in the meaning it has for various folks.   I defend absolutely your right to see in the flag what you want to see.    

 Maybe I'm wrong but it seems in next post you've lumped any one who doesn't see it as you do into one bunch.  Racist, white supremacist , terrorist etc.

 My feelings are hurt !!  Maybe we should take down the U.S. flag then I would be appeased !!

 As far as the media is concerned I'll leave you with this. 

 Joseph Goebels stated (I believe this true of todays gov. & media propaganda)  Tell a big lie long enough, it becomes the truth !!

 

      I do plan on a great thanksgiving.   The very same to you and yours !!

                                                                                                                         G.B.A.    Only here can we this .  (At least for a while yet)

[David Fair]

The Forum is a place for interesting discourse regarding the Civil War and its relevance to current events.

 

I am honestly interested to see a well-reasoned response on the connection between the CSA battle flag and a rebellion against the media.  

 

It doesn't matter if you response is from the perspective of racism, avian, or avant garde.  

Lump yourself into whatever bunch appeals to you.  

 

You seem to have entirely missed the question or simply dodged - again.  

 

Is it possible for you focus on an issue and answer a direct question?

 

It's OK if you can't respond intelligently to this question. I know it's a tough issue.

 

I'm genuinely interested in understanding the connection of the Confederate Battle Flag to a revolution against the media.  

 

Joseph Goebels did not fly the Confederate Battle Flag in his propaganda campaign.  

How is your Goebels quote relevant?

Goebels was talking about state policy methods of manipulating the media - not inciting a popular revolution against the media; which you stated was your reason for adopting the Confederate flag. 

 

Your Goebels quote is simply a Red Herring.

 

Not sure why your feelings are hurt...perhaps it's a side effect from the dye in the Red Herring?

[soreloser]

Perhaps Mr. fair if you would open the field of view on your tunnel vision you just might be able to make a few connections... and be enlightened !

Pure and simple, the C.S.A. battle flag stood for rebellion against an overbearing, oppressive government.  A great source of pride to most southerners and some northerners also. 

Lincoln didn't talk to the general public about freeing the slaves until a year into the war.  Why you ask !  Because he knew, if they knew, they were trading there lives, lives of there sons and husbands to free a few blacks he wouldn't have had an army to fight with !  His excuse for war until then was save the union...

Lincoln said that if he could have saved the union and not freed one slave he would have done it.

My feelings being hurt !  That was sarcasm .  But I guess you can't see that through that skinny little tube you look through.

Lumping myself into a group ... I choose white and proud of it .  No better or worse than anybody else ... Just proud to be white !

To take down the stars and bars to appease a few blacks who may have there feelings hurt is wrong, just plain wrong !

[David Fair]

I appreciate your answer and the fact that you aren't skulking behind nameless masses regarding your 'white pride.'

 

An honest response was all I was asking for.

 

However, you've still not made the any connection between the Confederate Battle Flag and the media.  Can you shed some light on the connection?

 

Note that:

 

The Confederate States of America was hardly an un-oppressive government or a symbol of non-oppression.

 

It's foundation was based on slavery and the oppression of one-third of the Southern population.  

See for example Alexander Stephens "Cornerstone Speech" which states this proposition directly and precisely.

 

The compulsory draft for all males was implemented by the CSA - oppression of the white male population that led to more than 100,000 white Southerners abandoning the ranks, the cause of the South, and their flag during the course of the war.

See Sam Watkins in his chapter on "Corinth" for example regarding the 20 negro exemption from the compulsory draft that brought the first wave of desertion from the armies of the Confederacy.

 

Southerners stated "I'll fight for the South" but not for the right of the rich to keep their slaves.  

Rich man's war - poor man's fight.  

 

Robert E. Lee requested permission to shoot any deserters - which was too big of a step in the direction of oppression even for the South.  When Lee posted sharpshooters behind his battle lines they also refused to shoot deserters.  

 

In the end the South's white population was under one of the most oppressive governments in history.  

First in its founding by subjecting its black population.

Then oppressing the white population as popular support for the war waned after Antietam.  

 

So the argument that the CSA battle flag represents a government that was somehow benign, unobtrusive, and not oppressive is silly.

 

I'm not sure you can honestly characterize the fact of slavery in America and its legacy of Jim Crow as "a few blacks who may have there feelings hurt."  But here we reach the chasm between our perspectives.  

 

This discussion has not been about "tunnel vision" but as Lincoln said regarding the oppression of America's black population, "there is the rub."  And so racial tension continues to simmer in America.

 

I remain ignorantly yours,

 

Mr. Fair 

[Mr. Mercanto]

The last I heard this is still the United States of America !  Able to show, say, or believe anything you d-mb well please !!!!!!

Last time I checked that Confederate flag tried to destroy the United States of America.......

[Mr. Mercanto]

I appreciate your answer and the fact that you aren't skulking behind nameless masses regarding your 'white pride.'

 

An honest response was all I was asking for.

 

However, you've still not made the any connection between the Confederate Battle Flag and the media.  Can you shed some light on the connection?

 

Note that:

 

The Confederate States of America was hardly an un-oppressive government or a symbol of non-oppression.

 

It's foundation was based on slavery and the oppression of one-third of the Southern population.  

See for example Alexander Stephens "Cornerstone Speech" which states this proposition directly and precisely.

 

The compulsory draft for all males was implemented by the CSA - oppression of the white male population that led to more than 100,000 white Southerners abandoning the ranks, the cause of the South, and their flag during the course of the war.

See Sam Watkins in his chapter on "Corinth" for example regarding the 20 negro exemption from the compulsory draft that brought the first wave of desertion from the armies of the Confederacy.

 

Southerners stated "I'll fight for the South" but not for the right of the rich to keep their slaves.  

Rich man's war - poor man's fight.  

 

Robert E. Lee requested permission to shoot any deserters - which was too big of a step in the direction of oppression even for the South.  When Lee posted sharpshooters behind his battle lines they also refused to shoot deserters.  

 

In the end the South's white population was under one of the most oppressive governments in history.  

First in its founding by subjecting its black population.

Then oppressing the white population as popular support for the war waned after Antietam.  

 

So the argument that the CSA battle flag represents a government that was somehow benign, unobtrusive, and not oppressive is silly.

 

I'm not sure you can honestly characterize the fact of slavery in America and its legacy of Jim Crow as "a few blacks who may have there feelings hurt."  But here we reach the chasm between our perspectives.  

 

This discussion has not been about "tunnel vision" but as Lincoln said regarding the oppression of America's black population, "there is the rub."  And so racial tension continues to simmer in America.

 

I remain ignorantly yours,

 

Mr. Fair 

As always, right on point David! 

Just to add to these comments, the Confederate government also arrested scores of political dissenters and suspended the Writ of Habeus Corpus (yet only the Union government is criticized for these actions). Furtherstill, many of the states, Tennessee, Virginia, and Georgia most egregiously, suppressed anti-secession portions of the population in order to force secession on Pro-Union citizens. These citizens were often also opposed to the slave power aristocracy. Having been forced into secession by this oligarchy, they were thenm as you pointed out, forced by the bayonet to fight for it. 

But yeah, other then that.....

[David Fair]

So I've looked up this "white pride" rhetoric...

 

It seems it was started by Don Black, formerly a Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, as a rebranded white supremacist slogan to draw in a broader spectrum of the white population in the white separatist, white nationalist, neo-Naxi, and white supremacist movements.  The demarcation line of this group seems to be that they advocate non-violence; but widely embrace racial intimidation.

 

White Pride is often coupled with the Nazi flag and the CSA battle flag - so the symbolism of hatred seems unchanged.  Also when you google the images of white pride many of the images don't align with your statement that 'white pride' is:

 

"No better or worse than anybody else ... Just proud to be white !"

 

So if this is true what's with the parades and the flare toting skin-head whites intimidating the black folks on their way to worship in their churches?

What about statements like, "Beauty IS skin deep!"

The agenda of racial hatred is so pervasive in this rebranded "white pride" that it is blatantly clear that "White Pride" has little to do with equanimity among the races - as you've stated above.

 

I'll choose to live my life with racially tolerant tunnel vision rather than succumb to living with hate over the color of people's skin.

 

Life's too short for this racial hatred nonsense.