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Laik

Why people don't fight.

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Recently there has been an increasing amount of posts by people who are getting disillusioned with the state of PvP in the open world. It deteriorated into (or likely was from the start) a constant game of cat and mouse which people are getting tired of to the point they started organizing duels just to get a fight. Many people are also avoiding PvP altogether after early unpleasant experiences or have been right from the start. While my intention is by no means to make everyone play PvP, I am quite surprised at how reluctant people are to engage in a fight often with an advantage.

 

The purpose of this topic is not to lament the state of the open world, which went live only recently but to compile the reasons for which the fights are not happening as often as they should in one place. I felt like there were a lot of good points being made in a seperate topics so thought I might make this topic something of a summary where everyone could post their ideas about why they themselves are reluctant to fight and what incentive they need.

 

Also this thread is about players who are PvP oriented, so players who are playing PvE only do not need to post here, since their reasons are obvious.

 

So let me start off:

Reason 1: Fear of being ganked.

I am reluctant to engage people from populated nations/groups because I know they always have friends close by who can easily turn a fight into a gank. So usually I will engage alone only when I stumble upon someone far from any port and don't spot any of their buddies on the horizon.

From the group perspective it's similar as above. It all comes down to not fear of being overwhelmed out of nowhere.

Solution: Part of it is already coming with 10 minute instance timers (which I feel should be 5 minutes). Also I hear there was a pretty good duel system in PotBS, which I haven't played but some people consider similar thing an excellent solution.

For the group fights, I wouldn't mind seeing a battle rating system balancing the battles, locking the instance for a side which already has an advantage (more balanced than proposed 3:1). People might object, saying it takes away an advantage from the more populous nations but I think that this is not where the population advantage should come in. While smaller nations are supposed to be hard-mode you still need to let people have fun in the game (and the number will be way more lopsided when the flood gates open). Therefore population advantage should matter on a strategic level by allowing power projection in many places at the same time (should be evident once some sort of conquest/territory control system is implemented). On the tactical level there should be no difference whether it's Dutch vs Britan or Britain vs USA. 

Another thing is the ability to see how many ships and of what nation are there in a port. It is realistic and also lets people know when they can safely engage (which they wouldn't do if there was any uncertainity - people are cautious by nature). Add the ability to see numbers in the instance for similar reasons. Right now you roll the dice whenever you join one. Let people know what they are facing and they will get bolder.

 

Reason 2: Insufficient incentives

I personally doesn't need any incentive to fight another player but I imagine many people when they have a choice of attacking a player or an AI will go for an AI for a very simple reason. More and easier XP. Obviously the XP grind is pretty much placeholder, but as in every MMO, when there is possibility to grind, people will grind, even though they say they hate it. So give them possiblity to grind more efficiently by engaging in PvP. In Sea Trials you could grind either in PvE or PvP and great majority of people grinded in PvP because the rewards were often bigger and it was obviously more fun. Also now I see a lot of those regular PvP players doing only PvE, for that very reason.

Solution: Obviously, bigger rewards for PvP. And for both, winner and the loser, so the loser is willing to fight another day despite being defeated. Also there was this excellent suggestion in another topic made by Neverlucky, giving 'cowardice' penalty

 

I invite everyone to post their ideas in a similar format and discuss/criticize mine. 

Edited by Laik
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Online players last night for me 17 :) with OW opening up to more people the number of opportunities will increase, constant complaints about lack of pvp in a map this size with at best 100 people and of late 20 online is really asking to much, what ever your views on the mechanics of it all are. I suggest people wait until the next patch and see what it and the changes offer.

 

17 people are not going to all meet without arranging it lol.

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1) No objectives worth fighting over.  They need some kind of incentive to draw players to a certain area, something everyone will want.  Also maybe offer faction points only accruable through pvp combat that allows you to buy nice stuff.  Even if you lose, you would still get some for participating, I dunno.

2) Not enough players...sorry but sea trials was not enough with 30 ppl...what makes you think in a huge OW it will be enough?  Let's see what happens with 500-1000 ppl.

3) Everything to lose, nothing to gain for the underdog.  I mean you lose dura, pay huge repair bills if the person wants to be a dick about it.

4) People's mood and RL stuff.  Not everyone wants to pvp 100% of the time, it doesn't mean they don't want pvp normally.  

 

I logged on today while WFH, I just wanted to run logistics (moving ships to diff outpost) so I could kind of semi-afk sail, a dutch player in a trinc kept engaging me, I finally turned around and smacked him down.  Other times I am shopping for either a ship or modules or proper cannons.  I don't like fighting with crap loadouts really, because you know the ppl who engage on you are going to have decent loadouts.  Other times I get out of a huge battle and I'll have like 10% hull left on both sides and ppl just start chasing me and trying to keep me in battle even when I tell them in OW I need to repair first if they want real pvp.

 

I think they should put something in like if you win a battle with lower BR, you gain a dura pt.  I'd imagine ppl would try abuse that mechanic...maybe just not apply it against starter lynx or ships with only 1 dura.

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Just one suggestion to ad to the list

1. Navy missions. 

Would be nice content to have in the game. Navy missions could be PvP oriented. Let the player "borrow" a ship from the nations navy for the duration of the mission. The mission itself will grant xp and gold.

The navy mission can for example include fights between nations where players are matched in balanced match-ups.

 

Would maybe not solve but help with two things. More PVP options, also for the people who are afraid to loose their ship. With a borrowed ship you can have a bonus if you do not loose the navy ship but not loosing any f your own if u go down. It would also give people with less time on their hands the possibility to sail larger ships even if they do not have time to "grind" for one.

 

I think some people avoid PvP also because they "can not afford to" loose the ship at the point. I have been short on time due to a lot of IRL stuff lately. I found myself avoiding PvP at one point. That is when I was down to 2 dura on my trinc. I did not want to risk the modules so I tried to stay away from PvP until i captured a few AI:s and found a new Trinc.... Simply becuase if I had lost my tric at the point I would not have had money enough to buy a new one....

 

Navy missions could also solve this. That is a means to earn gold in PvP even if you lost your own ship or can not afford to loose it at the time.

 

regards

 

KM 

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Guest raat

Honestly, because of the lack of players willing to pvp or just the lack of players, I've stopped testing until everyone is let in.  I've tested enough of the AI all the way up to and well within a Bellona and Commodore rank.  Hopefully, that will address the issue.  But I agree with the sentiment, real blood-pumping, pulse-racing, sweat-inducing PvP doesn't exist in the current Open World.  It's either chase or be chased.

 

I didn't think people would need incentives since, to me, this is a PvP game AND right now, we're only testing and no one will keep anything they own anyway, but I guess I was wrong...Perhaps, incentives are the answer.

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Agree with the posts especially Laiks and Booyaah. PVP is at the heart of the game and we need to find ways to encourage it and ensure balanced matches. I haven't had a good fight since since Sea Trials. Like the idea of borrowed ships and I guess this is what the skirmish button will eventually be about.

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Personally I will fight PVP but only under my own terms - not when surprised and not when downwind. Surrendering the initiative from the start is not the way to win battles.

 

Of course other players probably feel the same and so PvP fights are rare.

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PVP is a big part but so is economy, so with the two together that is the heart of the game, which people seem to lose sight on.

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Cat and mouse happened in real life, most players will only focus on players weaker than themselves and so these players try to run those with larger ships who run might really be looking at testing OW out and have done there fair share of PVP and PVE battles so are not so interested in that side of the game at the moment. Then you get those who just don't like PVP, some like the thrill of the chase, some are just trying to get away while some are just moving to a better position or closer to port or allied ships in the hope for a better out come. When I think PVP I think people trying to avoid conflicts till they find someone who they want to fight, or maybe they avoid you because they no your good or for other reasons.

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Like most I only really did PvP in Sea Trials and I lost my ship more often than not - even in a winning cause.

 

The main issue in OW is that most fights will always be unbalanced and because of the cost, running is expedient once its obviously a losing cause or you are likely to sink by staying, whether its PvP or PvE. Having said that the best fights I have enjoyed recently both involved PvP in inferior ships - once I stern camped a Surprise in a Cutter whilst it was distracted with bigger targets, then ran and captured one of its prizes (a Cerb) which I took with me, and secondly I got caught by a Trinc which beat me up badly but I eventually escaped close hauled in my Surprise which looked touch and go for a while - know your polars!

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Sense being in OW, I have sailed solo, almost completely.  My RL friends are ether still in Sea trials, or didn't get in when the opening was available.   I agree with all of the above posts,  PVP in sea trials was a blast,  and I really look forward to PVP in OW (at some point I hope to have a little extra gold).    I am not a supper sailor, and in sea trial, would loose my ship 75% of the time during the battle.   The cost to replace my current ship vs the incentives to pvp are not high enough with the current system.    Every PVP I have been in has been stacked against me, this leaves me little option but to run.  I would much rather and would be happy about it to turn and fight, if the cost was not so steep.  I think that if gold was based more on damage done, with a bonus for winning or something like that, it would not be so bad, and I could turn and blast 2 or three enemies a few times before going down.

 

Just a note:  I have fought more times than I have run, just because I do not like running (I have been sunk more times than not, and that's okay I learn something everytime).  I just feel that in the current design running makes sense way too often.

Edited by DesertRat

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Solution: Part of it is already coming with 10 minute instance timers (which I feel should be 5 minutes). 

 

I completely agree with it being lowered to 5 minutes. 

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Hello everyone. (sorry I use the Google translator)

 

Fighting is one thing but end up with a six against other players it quickly becomes irritating as I have seen it only yesterday. If nothing is done against this kind of daily aggression in the OW, many will leave this dimension of play. If the only answer is to do the same thing, it will turn to ridicule and for me this game will have no interest. Why not establish a contract-style like Eve Online on those who practice ganking? Or NPC fleets protection against these abuses.

Beat me I agree, commit my vessel against another but to see two systematically being attacked by "types" that have as sole purpose to ruin this game NO. Unfortunately this is what could happen if some run after the kills, the best ratio etc ...

Sincerely JGdV

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All I can say is yes obviously people are concerned about getting ganked but that is not totally the case for people not wanting to PvP other players. Another reason is that they just don't want to lose their ships and people are aware that their PvP skills are not as good as the other player, these are both reasons that will stop people from just attacking other players in OW. I am also pretty sure that in OW if you do PvP you get a bonus for that. :)

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I broadly agree with most of the posts here, but also think we should wait and see what happens when more players come in and what the next patch brings.

 

Those who don't wish to pvp should choose Neutral as a Nation.

 

Until you make the penalties for losing much less harsh, and you actually gain something from fighting all you will ever see for the most part is ganking (trying to ensure win through superior numbers) and running.

 

Simply because people like to win, so will do what they can to try and ensure a win.

Likewise people don't like losing, especially without any real incentive to fight if disadvantaged and in fact only penalties for doing so, will absolutely ensure they run or surrender.

 

This is a shame because the Trials were great fun and I played daily for months, for hours every day, had great fights and fun non stop.

 

I like OW, but those who are yet to join it should be aware that in it's current format it isn't that much fun, it is much more of an experience, that I think will get better with each patch.

 

You're not going to be hopping in and having fights for fun with other people and making progress due to that, which is what Trials were.

Trials were World of Tanks in ships with fights lasting 45 mins or so instead of 10 mins.

It was simple, easy to understand fun, with progress guaranteed, win or lose.  

I'm assuming skirmish mode will cover that at some point in the future. Whether you progress or not doing so I don't know.

 

The days of seeing in excess of 200 people online in Trials are long gone.

I was fortunate to see over 350 online on some days and had loads of good times.

 

Maybe next patch and opening up OW will see those numbers again. Maybe not.  In OW the most I ever seen was 70 or so. Usually it's 25-30.

 

I don't think I will ever see more than 500 online regularly even after release, unless the devs intend to make the game a lot more newbie friendly prior to release, and a certain number of people on these forums desist with trying to be forum die hard bad asses all the time, because they are able to play 23/7 and start thinking of the longer term success of the game and compromise somewhat in order to achieve it.

 

The devs may not ever wish to make it so and could be very happy to cater to a much smaller niche audience, getting a couple hundred people online at a time. I really don't know, and that is entirely up to them.

I'll still play it if they go that route, but it would be a far richer world with more fun and more people online to me personally, so making the game as accessible as possible early on with faster rewards and gains for early play is vital.

 

Bottom line though it is still very early to say exactly what is going to happen, and I will wait and see, carry on testing and reporting bugs ,and carry on posting with the majority of average/normal people/players in mind and not what I can personally do. Which is basically play a lot of hours daily should I wish. Most people cannot do that.

Edited by DraigUK
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people are aware that their PvP skills are not as good as the other player

Now that you mention it, I think this is very important. So...

 

Reason 3: Lack of possibility of training in a safe enviroment.

I imagine many people would like to PvP but they feel they are not skilled enough. I myself took a long while too adjust to the new ballistics introduced with the Open World. I still don't feel quite proficient with the gunnery, not nearly as proficient as I was in Sea Trials, which makes me less confident of my ability than I was back in the Sea Trials. That is also one of the reasons why I was reluctant to PvP early on and I would love to have a skirmish room to practice with my friends in an equal enviroment, without fear of losing a ship and having to sail all around the caribbean just to find this one player that could be a good practice target.

Solution: Obviously, give skirmish room as soon as possible. Maybe Sea Trials duel room-style. I imagine why devs might be reluctant to give it to us early on. They want us to test Open World, not sit in the duel room. However, the duel room would give us a possibility of testing the Dmg Model 4.0 thoroughly.

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pvp conflicts are quite rare at the moment, with only 50-60 players in OW, and if you belong to a faction that is not in the center of the Antilles, then there are even less pvp fights.

 

I also notice the absence of good manners in Open World. There is rarely a "hi" oder "gl" or other nice gestures when matches begin, no "gg" or "gf" to show respect for the other side after at the end of the battle. The climate here is quite cold, very competitive, the old Sea Trials spirit is gone.

 

Does anybody feel the need to conduct a battle while being handicapped and where the player does not respond to basic communication? I won´t give such a guy the satisfaction of an easy win. Can´t imagine anyone who does.

 

But all will change in future, at the point where more players will join

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I also notice the absence of good manners in Open World. There is rarely a "hi" oder "gl" or other nice gestures when matches begin, no "gg" or "gf" to show respect for the other side after at the end of the battle. The climate here is quite cold, very competitive, the old Sea Trials spirit is gone.

 

Not sure what battles u have been in but at the end of most battles i fight there's an exchange of ggs etc etc.

 

Also i would like to see some kind of room where we can test damage model 4.0.

Edited by SCL

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There are several potential solutions to this problem (some with benefits and drawbacks)

  • Add PVP honor kills requirement to the progression as a first step encouraging players to pvp more
    • honor kill - victory over the enemy of equal or higher battle rating
  • Force some battle rating equality like in sea trials (despite potential outcries of hardcore sandbox fans)
  • Add escort duty asap

Adding skirmish is not a solution at this stage. This will take many captains off the map. And we won't be able to test the OW properly. We already know skirmish is fun and works. It will be reinstated in the game before the release in some form.

 

 

and please don't get upset with the current state of the map. we also find it hard sometimes to separate testing and playing. We are currently testing and it does affect playing for some players.

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I completely understand the point about skirmish room. I suppose that was just my unhealthy drive for duelling speaking. Also I am perfectly aware we are just testing things, however enjoyment encourages players to test, don't forget about this ;).

 

About battle rating equality. I myself am very much in favour of forcing it, despite being quite infamous for abusing the player numbers in my favour. However not complete equality. Say one team being able to have at most 50 % battle rating advantage? This would allow people with numbers to still have their advantage while also leaving the possibility for the underdog to turn the fight if they play well. Obviously the % would need tweaking, 50 % is just an educated guess. This could be a good compromise (instead of mentioned 3:1 advatange limit, which solves nothing).

 

Honor kills. I like the idea, this would certainly incite people to fight their fights XP wise. I would also love to see it augemented by penalty for running from a fight where you have the upper hand/equal chance (an idea I really like, though some people might disagree).

 

Also, there could be a bonus not only for a victory against an opponent of higher battle rating, but also for attempting to fight one. Let's call it a courage bonus. Leaving the player who's being attacked by a bigger ship 2 options: 1. Strike colours, save money, be acquitted during court martial because of no chance of winning (no reputation/xp penalty) 2. Fight their fight, lose a ship, but gain a reputation/xp bonus. This would make the loss less bitter for a person on the losing side and not deter him as much from fighting the other day.

Edited by Laik

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  • Add PVP honor kills requirement to the progression as a first step encouraging players to pvp more
    • honor kill - victory over the enemy of equal or higher battle rating

 

In the navies you were obligated to actually earn your keep. If you and you ships weren't put to action at some point then something was wrong and action was the fastest way to progress up the list. How about you rework the rank system so that your XP slowly depletes with lack of action. Only during in-game time, not real world time.

 

So that if I attack and sink a bunch of ships I get 200xp, over the next 5 in game hours my XP reduces at a rate of 20xp per hour....?

 

 

I would also love to see it augemented by penalty for running from a fight where you have the upper hand/equal chance (an idea I really like, though some people might disagree).

 

Also, there could be a bonus not only for a victory against an opponent of higher battle rating, but also for attempting to fight one. Let's call it a courage bonus. Leaving the player who's being attacked by a bigger ship 2 options: 1. Strike colours, save money, be acquitted during court martial because of no chance of winning (no reputation/xp penalty)

 

I like the idea of an all seeing navy board handing out the credit and scorn. Rather than actually giving you the XP figure after a battle, telling you how well you did win or lose and then telling you how you're perceived by your peers and those above you is much more desirable.

 

This should only be the case in navies however where you were obligated to earn your keep. I maintain that Pirates, Merchants and Explorers acting outside of the navies should not have ranks. Possession and finance should be the motivation here.

 

  • Force some battle rating equality like in sea trials (despite potential outcries of hardcore sandbox fans)

 

Do this and there is no need for an open world, you might as well just make an arena style game. I'm sure this isn't lost on you though.

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Admin 

 

If I understood correctly the point for OW is try the mechanics of the world map and damage model 4.0 too.

 

I think the best way is:

 

1.- Deactivate the duras in this stage of testing.

 

2.- Make cannons and modules much more available in all shops.

 

3.- (Optional) Low a bit the module and cannons prices.

 

That way, ships with infinite duras, cheap repairs and shop articles more accesible, many people will not run of PvP and they will test the map too.

 

Anyway the duras is a economic stuff (you need earn gold for replace a sunken ship) and economics is not in the game now like a testing subject.

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Do this and there is no need for an open world, you might as well just make an arena style game. I'm sure this isn't lost on you though.

 

We do know this. We have some ideas how to solve this though.

 

Regarding battle equality it is of course never going to be equal (and it was not fully balanced in sea trials).

In reality most famous battles did not have 3x difference. And solo ships always ran from squadrons. The main question is how to motivate captains in engagements where the difference of forces is not drastic. 

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