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aethervox

Historical Range (Time Period)

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You make a difference, it just ends when the period is over is all. Else people will still be in the age of sail in ww2.

 

I suppose the goals of the game matter. I assume "naval action" is the primary goal. The rest of the world then exists to provide context and meaning to the various naval actions. "Production line?" To the extent players are even involved, it's to provide strategic context for the naval war, nothing more.

 

Anything that reads as "grind" seems counterproductive to me. YMMV.

 

There are basically 2 ranks that matter for players of the tactical game (using the RN, throw a couple more in for slop if you like). Lieutenant, and Captain. Unrated vs rated ships. You would mostly be a Lt, then once made post you'd get a post ship. In RL, that could be ANY post ship. 

 

For the game, in a world that resets, there is a simple mechanism. You have some global stats (I'll call it meta-rank) that cross each "campaign" reset. These stats change the range of ship you might be assigned.

 

When a new campaign starts, it's not like the world should be all unrated ships, right? It picks your starting rank based on your meta rank. So you made Admiral once? You will start the game with the server assigning you a rank based upon what the game world needs, up to, and including Admiral. You have only been an Lt? You'll probably be an Lt again, but your total "score"might be such that when a reset happens, you will either be an Lt, or a chance at Post Captain. Any Vet player will have a chance of starting any given campaign at a higher rank. Changes within those will be earned to keep the right balance of units (server dynamically tweaking what distinguishes you enough to get promoted). Within this, some will start the game as a Post Captain in a 6th Rate, others in an SOL. If campaigns last a few months, very few months you get to play a different role. heck, RN on campaign, French the next, merchant another, pirate another, whatever.

 

It;s not impossible, and has advantages, particularly if you want to have the game world advance over a long time frame technologically.

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You make a difference, it just ends when the period is over is all. Else people will still be in the age of sail in ww2.

 

Remember that Admin has said there will only be a date, and not a year displayed in-game. So people sailing the HMS Victory in 1939 will never happen.

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Some good points and interesting ideas there, tater :)

 

I suppose the goals of the game matter. I assume "naval action" is the primary goal. The rest of the world then exists to provide context and meaning to the various naval actions. "Production line?" To the extent players are even involved, it's to provide strategic context for the naval war, nothing more.

 

This part I agree with the most -- so much that all I personally really want from Naval Action is a multiplayer combat/"skirmish" model.

 

That said, if NA is to be a game I'd get involved with beyond that, I would still prefer a technologically and chronologically stable world without "resets" of the kind Admin floated earlier. For me it's a giant, jarring record skip.  :wacko: But as you said, YMMV -- and mine does on these particularly points.

 

I'd far prefer seeing any "resets" be under the guise of "Oh, snap! Peace broke out! The politicos just reverted all our borders to what they were before the war started!" For me, that doesn't break my suspension of disbelief, which I guess is really what the "resets" come down to for me.

 

As for meta-rank, while the notion itself seems all fine and good, I see a couple problems that would need to be overcome:

 

1) How does one assign ships at the very start of a game?

 

2) How (or should) the same players be prevented from dominating post commands after each "reset?"

 

... but those questions are perhaps better addressed in Method of obtaining vessels.

 

In any case, I'm still left wondering what gameplay sacrifices the dev team sees inherent in having a stable, unified, fairly narrow historic period. As I posted in Viable variety, there are lots of possible rôles to fill in any given time period -- and ships for just about every rôle in each discrete time period. I'd really like to understand where the devs are coming from.

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Some good points and interesting ideas there, tater :)

 

 

This part I agree with the most -- so much that all I personally really want from Naval Action is a multiplayer combat/"skirmish" model.

 

That said, if NA is to be a game I'd get involved with beyond that, I would still prefer a technologically and chronologically stable world without "resets" of the kind Admin floated earlier. For me it's a giant, jarring record skip.  :wacko: But as you said, YMMV -- and mine does on these particularly points.

 

I'd far prefer seeing any "resets" be under the guise of "Oh, snap! Peace broke out! The politicos just reverted all our borders to what they were before the war started!" For me, that doesn't break my suspension of disbelief, which I guess is really what the "resets" come down to for me.

 

As for meta-rank, while the notion itself seems all fine and good, I see a couple problems that would need to be overcome:

 

1) How does one assign ships at the very start of a game?

 

2) How (or should) the same players be prevented from dominating post commands after each "reset?"

 

... but those questions are perhaps better addressed in Method of obtaining vessels.

 

In any case, I'm still left wondering what gameplay sacrifices the dev team sees inherent in having a stable, unified, fairly narrow historic period. As I posted in Viable variety, there are lots of possible rôles to fill in any given time period -- and ships for just about every rôle in each discrete time period. I'd really like to understand where the devs are coming from.

 

One, using ww2ol as an example, they play campaigns til one side "wins" the map. It goes from Summer 1940, to 1945 in terms of available units. Campaigns last weeks, a few maybe months, I cannot recall. That's for 4-5 years of "game time."

 

If this went 100 years, a single "map" might take a few years in the real world. Certainly months. Just use whatever the time compression assumption on the map is, and do the math. This is not a super frequent reset.

 

1. The game would look at the nation states, and their extant navies, and populate them as well as possible with active players. If 5% of Post ships are SOLs, the rest 5th and 6th rates, then 5% of people of the right meta rank get posted to SOLs, the rest get frigates. If there are not enough Lts for all the unrated ships, then some of the people with rank for Post ships might get a Brig. they can still rank up, it will change every time. Server has some weighting, plus random (assign points to get each, and you have weighting +- some random number.

 

2. You might start with a 2d rate one campaign, and a Brig the next. Even with high "meta-rank" it just widens the range of possible ships you might get to include the biggest. Maybe it's a normal distribution… dunno, whatever the distribution needs to be based on players ranks and actual ship populations in the various navies. Players might know that an unpopular (to play) navy might have a better chance of getting a better ship. Such dynamic balancing can help populate all the nations. Heck, the % chance of each class of ship for a given player might be right at the login screen for the first session of a new map. You can see for each nation what kind of unit is the best, and what "better" unit you have a better shot at starting with.

 

In ww2ol, there were times of day (always a problem with a global MMO, BTW) where it was prime time in Europe. Except for brits, and the small number of french, virtually every other player in europe played German exclusively. Americans played both sides (US as a country was not in the game originally at all, UK, France, Germany). So during euro time, the Germans would roll the map. Playing Allied stank, a few guys facing many germans. US prime time balanced things out, though sometimes allies might have the edge in numbers. Numbers always win in games and RL. How does one balance this in the persistent MMO model with no death (yeah, this is OT to my OT thread). Still worth thinking about because there is a time range, AND certain nations. If the RN is super popular, pretty soon even in the most realistic world of consequences, no one aside front he RN will want to leave port.

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One, using ww2ol as an example, they play campaigns til one side "wins" the map. It goes from Summer 1940, to 1945 in terms of available units. Campaigns last weeks, a few maybe months, I cannot recall. That's for 4-5 years of "game time."

If this went 100 years, a single "map" might take a few years in the real world. Certainly months. Just use whatever the time compression assumption on the map is, and do the math. This is not a super frequent reset.

1. The game would look at the nation states, and their extant navies, and populate them as well as possible with active players. If 5% of Post ships are SOLs, the rest 5th and 6th rates, then 5% of people of the right meta rank get posted to SOLs, the rest get frigates. If there are not enough Lts for all the unrated ships, then some of the people with rank for Post ships might get a Brig. they can still rank up, it will change every time. Server has some weighting, plus random (assign points to get each, and you have weighting +- some random number.

2. You might start with a 2d rate one campaign, and a Brig the next. Even with high "meta-rank" it just widens the range of possible ships you might get to include the biggest. Maybe it's a normal distribution… dunno, whatever the distribution needs to be based on players ranks and actual ship populations in the various navies. Players might know that an unpopular (to play) navy might have a better chance of getting a better ship. Such dynamic balancing can help populate all the nations. Heck, the % chance of each class of ship for a given player might be right at the login screen for the first session of a new map. You can see for each nation what kind of unit is the best, and what "better" unit you have a better shot at starting with.

In ww2ol, there were times of day (always a problem with a global MMO, BTW) where it was prime time in Europe. Except for brits, and the small number of french, virtually every other player in europe played German exclusively. Americans played both sides (US as a country was not in the game originally at all, UK, France, Germany). So during euro time, the Germans would roll the map. Playing Allied stank, a few guys facing many germans. US prime time balanced things out, though sometimes allies might have the edge in numbers. Numbers always win in games and RL. How does one balance this in the persistent MMO model with no death (yeah, this is OT to my OT thread). Still worth thinking about because there is a time range, AND certain nations. If the RN is super popular, pretty soon even in the most realistic world of consequences, no one aside front he RN will want to leave port.

1) I'm reading a lot of 'you are given' in this. Do I have a say in the ships I sail? What if I don't want a brig? I think players should be allowed to choose, purchase and outfit their ships with complete freedom. To give a more realistic feel to the game, perhaps naval captains are assigned officers, where as privateers and merchants have to hire them.

2) Up time and down time is as you say, just a part of gaming. To get around this in EVE, alliances would try to recruit a wide range of players spanning multiple time zones. Perhaps societies in Naval Action can do the same?

3) Numbers most certainly do not dictate the outcome of a battle. They are a factor, but things like equipment, logistics and tactics all play just as strong a part as numbers.

And lastly, we may be getting slightly off topic here.

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1. Naval characters do what they are told, or face court martial. 2. It is a constant struggle to balance forces, and when players "role play" a specific character, their initial choice of nation will decide the rest. 3. "quantity has a quality all its own."

 

On topic, time will also decide what you get. If a certain type of vessel was not in service in 1680, but was in 1780, then you should not get it 100 years early. The rating of ships changed over time, as did the armament. The game either needs to stick to a more narrow timeframe, or somehow have technology evolve over time. Heck, even simpler things like gunlocks instead of linstock had to be introduced, then slowly adopted. I think if we bothered to really look into the differences in ships over time it would become clear that they need to adapt over time (which time limits the game, functionally). There is zero point in ever using a type that is grossly inferior because it is 120 years out of date. The Age of Sail was pretty long, but not static technologically.

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I know I've said it elsewhere, but I'm gonna go ahead and say it again :)

'Age of Sail' naval action combat module. No dates, no constraints.

Open world multiplayer sailing game of whatever sort it ends up being. Please date it. Set a period. Study it, model it, immerse me in it. Give it depth and life, coherence and intelligence, variety and wonder. Make me want to spend time there, and make me want to sail there, and sail then.

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i agree with braggy if i dont have much time but want some naval action i hope into the multiplayer or matchplay modul and get some fine quick 1vs1 for fun with a friend or someone i know.

if i want to explore and just want to enjoy sailing i go onto the open map.

 

but back to topic  maybe we can get divrent servers for diffrent periods:

 

-golden age of piracy in the carebean yes i know its geting a litle dull after done alot of times but some peole love white powder beaches and palms

-the atlantik coast of europe and the US for napoleonic war.

-baltic for some old 1600 battles with sweden and dutch russians

-british channel 2 versions one with napoleonic age and one with the first british vs dutch wars

 

this will mean we dont see some old galeons facing ,,modern,, SoL`s

 

maybe we could start with the napoleonic wars and simply add the other locations and time periods like some expansion or major patches of other games

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i agree with braggy if i dont have much time but want some naval action i hope into the multiplayer or matchplay modul and get some fine quick 1vs1 for fun with a friend or someone i know.

if i want to explore and just want to enjoy sailing i go onto the open map.

 

but back to topic  maybe we can get divrent servers for diffrent periods:

 

-golden age of piracy in the carebean yes i know its geting a litle dull after done alot of times but some peole love white powder beaches and palms

-the atlantik coast of europe and the US for napoleonic war.

-baltic for some old 1600 battles with sweden and dutch russians

-british channel 2 versions one with napoleonic age and one with the first british vs dutch wars

 

this will mean we dont see some old galeons facing ,,modern,, SoL`s

 

maybe we could start with the napoleonic wars and simply add the other locations and time periods like some expansion or major patches of other games

 

With this, what would happen to a payers assets, or even the players character? Would characters swap between servers and take their assets with them? Would characters be able to swap around but the assets remain on one server? Or will we need a new character for each server?

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i'm focusing more on the match play modul we are geting first with not so deep focus on your avatar.

just you controlling the ship. but i think this discussion doesnt really fit in here

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Hello all!

 

My first post! So what is the exact time period setting for the game? I know its "Age of Sail", but is there a more narrow focus?

 

Since the United States is a nation in the game I'm assuming its post 1776 era?  or Napoleonic?

 

Thanks!

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Glorious Age of Sail sums it up very nicely. The only problem it is a different period for everyone.

What we know is where we end. Just before times of heavy standardization and appearance of iron sides and engines - around 1830

Where we start we don't know exactly.

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To define the time frame and the possible ships is probably one of the hardest things to decide on. What would be the biggest compromise between realism, maximum variety of ships and game balance is the question?

 

Some ideas to contribute to the brainstorming process

 

-for campaign and the normal game, why not take a rather later start date, e.g.1800-1810 with +/- 10 years as a benchmark for the ships that are available. This era should give a maximum amount of competitive vessels

Speaking of the campaign, this is independent from the political setting. I´m aware of the ongoing changing of borders/island ownership during that time, but to have an 1800 ship in a 1750 caribean setting will only bother realism fanatics. To have an 1800 ship in a 1530 geopolitical setting would be too much of course.

 

-for PvP only the possibility to offer ships from different eras, like a Mary Rose https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Rose, a Santa Maria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Mar%C3%ADa_%28ship%29, a Brederode https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_ship_Brederode, the Russian Shtandard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtandart_%28frigate%29  or the swedish Kronan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronan_%28ship%29

– all mainstream ideas, but smart guys provided plenty of ideas in the sea trials sections, so there is no shortage of possible ships and ideas.

 

The ships from older eras probably won´t be competitive against more modern ones, but would offer some players or super pro´s (those guys that have achieved everything in game) a new flavor. These ships could be offered for special accomplishments or you could buy them for real cash – generating extra resources for the devs without endangering the balance and alienating the playerbase. Dedicated players would buy them for sure.

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Its clear still not absolutely decided, but to see 16.ct galleons would be to outdated, many details of those are quite medieval-renaissancelike, and so i think (its my opinion ;)) the ships should be at least 'mid-baroque'. Also the Sovereign of the Seas would be (for me) to early. Like months ago written, about 1670-18XX would be ok. Anyway i will get no heart-attack if i will see a Hanse-Kogge :D

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... Anyway i will get no heart-attack if i will see a Hanse-Kogge :D

 

I will! ;)

 

But with a nome-de-guerre like mine 1660 onwards would be nice - still, looking at all those beautiful ships on the wishlist, how will the devs/servers separate the baroque ships from the Napoleonic ones (= not to end up in a game similar to "War of Thunder")?

 

Darn: It is "nom de guerre" = which shows that i am only good at French wine!

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I will! ;)

 

But with a nome-de-guerre like mine 1660 onwards would be nice - still, looking at all those beautiful ships on the wishlist, how will the devs/servers separate the baroque ships from the Napoleonic ones (= not to end up in a game similar to "War of Thunder")?

I am really nosy in which way the devs will decide.

But please get no heartattack, your Avatars 'heart' looks to sweet for that! ^^

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Glorious Age of Sail sums it up very nicely. The only problem it is a different period for everyone.

What we know is where we end. Just before times of heavy standardization and appearance of iron sides and engines - around 1830

Where we start we don't know exactly.

I have idea that fits well and will give you a little extra time to decide where to end this. Inverted career developmentTM!

We start with the Victory and then we develop, going back in time. What will be the final content? Maybe galleons, but maybe Greek trireme ;-)

 

Edited/added:

Please, do not meditate on this proposal too seriously. Sorry, it was just a joke.

:ph34r:

 

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If you are going to have older ships that cannot compete with the newer ones... how does this make sense?


I mean if we are starting with the constitution available how then do people go for older less heavily armed vessels from further back in time?


 


Please tell me the answer is not "balance" enabling clearly inferior vessels from the 1600s to beat clearly superior vessels from 1800s with smaller cannon.


I mean the main difference would have been armament right? Before 1700 I don't think they had carronades either. 


 


Be very interesting to see what is done to say the least. The older ships do look a lot more ornate and shiney. 


 


I am happy for now just to have the napoleonic world recreated and to be captain jack aubreys doppleganger for the frenchies. The frenchies get such a bad wrap.


Or maybe I will be a spanish el capitan. Such masters of ship design!


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@Destraex, i also 'hope' there are not to much funny possibilities only because some folks would like rafts (with 'shirt'sails) and others (space)ships. All are surely able to swim in water.....

" I :wub: my houseboat, please implement it in the game, ....here you get exact construction plans "

 

Sure, i exaggerate..... :P

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For the open map we initially thought of all players starting at 1600 something and then researching and developing their fleets using science, economy and trading to 1820. But it will still create situations where Constitution could sail alongside Galeons.  We cannot get around this puzzle yet by not dropping some historical accuracy in favor of gameplay. 

 

Another idea we thought about was similar to what DOTA2 has but on a slower scale - where players start at certain very early time period until they win the map. And after map is won everything resets including port positions and resources, all property players gained.. Nations and clans that were slower in development would sail older ships. (in dota your skills level within the match only - after match ends you start again)

 

If you get enough players I guess you could have two open worlds in different periods. People could swap between the two. But would their be enough ships by that stage?

This would allow friends to choose the same world as other friends without separating them by levels.... would also allow two periods to be grinded separately side by side.

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@Destraex, i also 'hope' there are not to much funny possibilities only because some folks would like rafts (with 'shirt'sails) and others (space)ships. All are surely able to swim in water.....

" I :wub: my houseboat, please implement it in the game, ....here you get exact construction plans "

 

Sure, i exaggerate..... :P

You do not exagerate

I believe they had barrels with cannon in POTBS. 

 

 

Not sure if these were a joke mod. But they are the sort of thing that turns a population away and leaves it to the scrubs.

jrb.jpg

500px-Jury-Rigged_Barrel.jpg

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it doesnt have a cannon there are a couple of these small fun objects a flat raft with some sails a longboat some yachts and some fish cutter.

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