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Open world: Combat, Rules of Engagement, Damage, Bot combat AI discussions

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So... Fleets. What do we think of them?

 

Personally I like them. I find myself getting into more dynamic and bigger battles with my 2 snow escorts and managing them during the fight adds a new element of to the game.

 

Little trick I learnt, which is fun and looks great, is to give the "follow me order" and form a line with the fleet behind you. When you are ready to give your first broadside select "free mode" or "destroy" (if you have a target selected) and then conduct your broadside. While you are doing this the fleet ai behind you will turn and fire a broadside at the target as well. When you have finished firing your own guns look to watch your fleet mates fire theirs then select "follow me" to re form the line before they go all over the place.

 

There is a lot of micro managing in this, with hitting "m" and clicking, so if the devs could find the time to make this sort of stuff more user friendly I think it would be awesome.

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Fleets are a nice idea, but in my mind, make them a "must have" item in order to have a 1 on 1 with a similar ship.  In short, you create a system where you absolutely must not go anywhere near PvP without a fleet or you'll meet with someone who does, and you'll likely get creamed.

 

Anything that is an "option" that turns into a "must-have " due to game mechanics is a bad idea in my opinion.

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Yes fleets in a pvp game are simply annoying as hell. Sometimes they work very well and sometimes they are completely worthless in their behavior. However, it's almost to a point now where you have to take them out with you. I simply do not see what they are adding to the game. This should be about the abilities of actual captain players and as little as possible to do with NPC's in out fights. Maybe include them in a pve server but we certainly don't need them on a PvP server. Probably my biggest dislike in the game right now is the fleet mechanic. If I win or lose a fight should not be influenced by some computer controlled AI that I'm having to deal with in addition to another player.

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I don't have answers, only questions. Are we happy with this?:

Perfect tag:

4658712554aef322eb2fab7305281f2c.jpg

Instance positioning:

53ecc7843e2be00c30e96d0e814f6f69.jpg

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The above explains why I'm never scared of getting tagged in my traders, it's sooooo easy to mash a few keys and mess up their tag.

A perfect tag still requires you to be in a speedfit ship with chasers, in all other cases it's a hipshot in the dark.

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I don't see the problem, jodgi.

 

Weren't the relative positions flawless transposed into the instance? You're just running into the minimum starting distance. If it was any less, things just get silly, and we get the collision-sinking glitch again.

 

The real problem is the 9 times out of 10, a tag like that will result in the ships' positions getting swapped. I never tag closer than 2 shiplengths if I can help it.

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I'm not saying there is a problem. Tagging is hard.

I get tagged so much running around in traders by all the new guys, noone has ever been even remotely close to catching me inside the instances. I guess the positioning must be balanced around trincos and connies and new guys just have to suffer impossible odds in the tagging game.

Don't mind me, just reporting what I see...

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I'm not saying there is a problem. Tagging is hard.

I get tagged so much running around in traders by all the new guys, noone has ever been even remotely close to catching me inside the instances. 

Because of the clock, or because they were actually sailing slower than you?

 

I've never had the chance to tag a trader recently, and can't tell how important that 500-yard rule and speed penalty are.

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Because of the clock, or because they were actually sailing slower than you?

 

I've never had the chance to tag a trader recently, and can't tell how important that 500-yard rule and speed penalty are.

I've been tagged in TCutters and TSnows. I have been tagged by Cutters, mercs and snows. I haven't had to resort to counter-tagging or carefully going for best speed. Just lazily turn away from them at an non-shitty angle, wait for the instance, chuckle at the spawn distance and taunt them before alt tabbing to annoy someone on the forums while I wait for the exit timer.

This is what spurred this "report". If a perfect tag can be a challenge in the instance, it just seems PVP tagging is near impossible in these types of ships.

Like we've touched upon already; We can't have ships humping and flipping, nor does these spawn distances pose serious problems for trinco chasers or the even better connie chasers. People are prolly already sporting purple pellews on their trinco/connie.

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On the topic of AI Combat: Yesterday I had a situation where myself and both of my group members were attacked by an AI French Snow and Brig (mind you we are roughly a 3 hour trip from the closest French town), ok no big deal we could deal with it easy. As the battle rolled on they had reinforcements show up, another brig and Snow, ok still not a problem we can still win this. But as we had asked for backup from clanmates in teamspeak, they said the battle had closed, yet another round of AI reinforcements showed up for the French a few minutes later, well after the battle closing, now outnumbering us. I found it quite ridiculous that the AI Reinforcements were able to show up out of nowhere in such numbers considering we were so far away from French land, not to mention the ability of AI Reinforcements to join the battle after the battle join timer had run out, we were well out-numbered and it took us 45 minutes to finally win the battle. While I am all for fun battles, this was quite ridiculous. 

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Quick question for you guys:

 

If you are in a PVP battle and your opponent suddenly sinks in a very short amount of time with armor marginally depleted (on purpose) does this mean they logged out, disconnected or something? The reason I ask is because I attacked a  player trader brig and it sank much earlier than I expected. I was doing my best to not sink it to perform a cap like the many times before... this one seemed odd. The real downside was that despite my best efforts the ship sank and no loot obtained. I was hoping the obvious mechanic was to leave a a ghost ship with the cargo intact if one side of a PVP disco'd. Just curious if that is the case.

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You probably rammed it during your attempt to not sink it, and it sank due to lack of crew to fix the leaking.

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You probably rammed it during your attempt to not sink it, and it sank due to lack of crew to fix the leaking.

I could see that if it actually took time to sink... like every other situation where a ship sinks from a leak AND the fact that I  never got close enough to do any ramming.

 

I guess the essence of my question really is... if a person exits the game is their ship up for grabs or do they just sink? I can see it as a major potential for abuse if the latter is true. Especially when attacking trader ships.

Edited by PiraticalBanditti

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Im having a problem whit OW PvP battles lasting way too lonbg  because people keep fighting at maximum range and shooting only masts, i was tied for 3 hours in 2 Battles.

 

Our small group was doing some missions when we spotted spanish players and decided to try out some PvP, thing ended to that the sPaniards in much faster ships just didnt engage but kept firing at maximum distance whit ball to our masts.

We couldnt catch them and they didnt let us run away either, just opened another battle again whit similar tactic... SO BOORING. In the end i told other pop out when they can lets just suicide in so we can get to sleep as it was 2am...

 

Honestly this felt like beign trolled. I can understand port battles to take up to 2hours, and even that is LONG. You cant honestly say peoples should have 2-3hours stright for just one match. That is way too much.

 

My suggestion is to have gradually whit the time a circle closing in the battle so you can leave thru the border.

 

I just dont feel to do any pvp at all if it all is firing enemy masts at maximum distance for hours, leaving you whit like 200xp. Not worth it.

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I have read a subject in the section "Tribunal" on use of exploits, and I want to express the opinion on it. For a start, the offer on making the button with a question, you want or not to join fight, isn't credible.

This button will be used to the detriment of game. For anybody its not a secret that British never attack the opponent near their cities until they become advantage. The opponent, in turn, doesn't attack British near their cities because British, causing a reinforcement, get this advantage also. But what if the opponent wants to reach to British for the sake of more or less fair fight? On the one hand they can't attack. With another - to wait until British become twice more, is silly. In this situation the decision has to be made taking into account wishes of both sides. I believe, free attack of "guests" without fear to get double advantage on "owners" side can become the first step to a solution.

I would offer a package of measures for elimination of this problem:

1. The used reinforcement call immediately closes fight for allied players, but should be available 30 second above player joining timer end.

2. Near hometowns the period in which allies will be able to come to the rescue of gank victims has to be longer than usual two minutes for defenders.

3. At the same time the cumulative rating of defenders shouldn't exceed 120% of a rating of attackers. When this limit is reached during 2-5 minutes, the prolonged timer stops ahead of schedule.

4. Forbid basic cutters and other low-level ships to initiate fight with the opponent, whose group rating by 200 times (200 for cutter, but less for bigger class ship, like snow, brigs etc in progression) surpasses his personal battle rating. Cutters shouldn't be able to join large fights at all, no matter what.

5. To add the local channel of the emergency help which will be always foreseeable and available to reading in chat. This channel of the victims of gank will be able quickly to notify on their situation.

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My suggestion:

 

Remove Entry-timer on PvP-battles completely. If one side reaches br of 2:1 lock this side until the other side brings more ships in, to max of 25 ships per side.

The timers that where implemented to prevent ganks doing quite the opposite right now. Yesterday at Coqibacoa there where like 15 pirates in the harbour, as soon

as some dutchies started a mission around there or a tagged a fleet they all jumped out of the harbour and into the battle without the chance of reinforcing the battle.

Make PvP-Battle-markers visible all the time give them different colour.

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Quick question for you guys:

 

If you are in a PVP battle and your opponent suddenly sinks in a very short amount of time with armor marginally depleted (on purpose) does this mean they logged out, disconnected or something? The reason I ask is because I attacked a  player trader brig and it sank much earlier than I expected. I was doing my best to not sink it to perform a cap like the many times before... this one seemed odd. The real downside was that despite my best efforts the ship sank and no loot obtained. I was hoping the obvious mechanic was to leave a a ghost ship with the cargo intact if one side of a PVP disco'd. Just curious if that is the case.

He escaped a previous battle, where he probably rammed something..

 

James Thompson.. 2 points i would like to make about your case.

1. Dont go pvp with mission ships!! Like EVER... that live oak/stiff ship wont catch a thing.

2. The problem is the huge heel elevation you get when firing the upwind broadside. So, when you chase them downwind, they can shoot you at 2-3x times the range you can! To fix that you have to turn your masts the proper way.

 

Next time when that happens, just split with your guys.. They will go for one ,then you can surround.

Edited by DarkspaceII

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Regarding combat and Rules of engagement:

 

If an enemy player engages in a Mission or Epic spawn event, I would like the option to join the battle where I am in relation to the player. For example if I am right behind a player, he joins a mission; I should be allowed to join him in that mission right be hind him with out having to sail back out and joining at the reinforcement distance.

 

Regarding Bots:

 

They are too accurate. Showed a pavel my stern at 500yds, he hit every shot.

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They are too accurate. Showed a pavel my stern at 500yds, he hit every shot.

Totally agree!

At this momemt (I guess since the damage model (more leaks) has been changed) PVE is absolutely unattractive. I'm not sucessful, because the accuracy of the AI is godlike, even a heavy frigate has problems with two far smaller ships and battles with 135 xp are far below my rank ...

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*Does a Mission against a Navy Brig while using a Cerberus*

 

*Thinks to self "I got this"*

 

*10 minutes after engaging, my ship is on fire, lost 7 cannons, half hull for left while none for right, and you see me in a corner sucking my thumb and thinking about what i'm doing with my life.*

 

This actually happened btw*

 

Except for the last part of course*

 

Okay, so I get that they wanted to increase AI skill and damage to (Hopefully) get rid of easy gold and exp grinding. But when it comes to fighting a Brig or higher, and they have 99% accuracy, somehow better reload time than you do (talking about fighting the same type of ship you are using), being able to bring my hull down a quarter in 5 hits when it took me 9, them being able to turn on a dime, it just gets so frustrating...

 

And from what I was told by my friends (they are using Cutters, Privateers, and Pickles) they were having the same problem while fighting against the same ships they have. It's becoming a usual for me and few of my experienced friends to keep playing Midshipman, Ensign, and Second LT missions even when we are Post Captains due to all of the problems I described above. I do have however heard that they decreased accuracy for lower level AI's (I hope)

 

What me, my friends, and possibly others in the Naval Action Community is just to add more of a balance to AI's. You don't have to Nerf them till bare bones, but at least decrease the accuracy and turning speed on them. Let's be honest, I don't think a crew of Pirates( that are realistic not that well trained) are able to hit your ship with 99% accuracy. Decrease the accuracy for the pirate AI's (70-80% accuracy) in missions but not in the Open World. Just tweak AI for nations (France, Britain, etc.) enough to keep realism in play ( instead of 99% change to somewhere around 85-90%).

 

I am fine with the turning speed (considering that you can find an easy way to counter it) but the reloading speed is a problem that needs to be fixed.  Too many times have me and my friends been caught off guard when the AI are able to reload about 2-4 seconds ahead of us ( fighting against our own type of ships, a Cerberus and a Renomme). This minor annoyance is easily turned into a major problem when you add it in with the 99% accuracy and the current damage done by the AI.

 

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Totally agree!

At this momemt (I guess since the damage model (more leaks) has been changed) PVE is absolutely unattractive. I'm not sucessful, because the accuracy of the AI is godlike, even a heavy frigate has problems with two far smaller ships and battles with 135 xp are far below my rank ...

 

Pretty much, today I was coming out of a mission and got ganked in my BP by two Surprises. I made both of them retreat (because nobody actually sinks in PVP) after getting both their hulls to 0. If I fought two AI surprises in my BP I would sink, almost certainly. The AI is literally better than the average PVPer in PVP2.

 

On the topic of missions, there's a problem with the difficulty of the 350 -> 650 crew rank jump. Right now the 350 crew rank missions are too easy and the 650 crew missions are absurdly hard, often putting you against a Bellona. The missions literally jump from two Niagara's to a Bellona. Perhaps when more ships are added it would be good to have another rank in between the 350-650 jump? Also with mission difficulty, it would be good if it scaled with the number you have in your fleet, because right now the normal missions are more suited to two player fleets. Soloing against two smaller AI ships is generally significantly harder than a 1v1 with a bigger ship.

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My two cents: bots' IA now is balanced to give a good challenge without being too much overpowered,

 

What I still find rather excessive is the IA precision in sniping at long distance.

 

PS: and it's true that IA bots in mid/high level missions are much better at fighting than the average player you may meet in small scale PVP

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PS: and it's true that IA bots in mid/high level missions are much better at fighting than the average player you may meet in small scale PVP

 

well, the bot has spended all his life doing that  :rolleyes:

 

Some bot (specifically thinking on big belly traders now) are quite thought in boarding actions due mainly to marines abuse  , so you need quite an advantage in numbers to take them up.... but as that is compensated by their uneficient use of boarding option the final result seems right.

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My suggestion:

 

Remove Entry-timer on PvP-battles completely. If one side reaches br of 2:1 lock this side until the other side brings more ships in, to max of 25 ships per side.

The timers that where implemented to prevent ganks doing quite the opposite right now. Yesterday at Coqibacoa there where like 15 pirates in the harbour, as soon

as some dutchies started a mission around there or a tagged a fleet they all jumped out of the harbour and into the battle without the chance of reinforcing the battle.

Make PvP-Battle-markers visible all the time give them different colour.

Ive been arguing for this all over again... +1

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Hi Folks,

please make it impossible to flee a battle when you are near to the enemy. (best within a circle shown when you try to flee)

Without chasers it is nearly impossible to catch a ship within the short time given by the battletimer, even when your ship is faster. 
 

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