HMS Surprise hauled out for repairs

[Surcouf]

It was completely derived from the original post, but to give a little more information. After I stop polluting this post. (Sorry to the author)

For the period of the American war of independence (1775-1783)

Built 130 boats of all classes.

Construction period: 1 to 3 years

Average constructions spread over the duration of the conflict: 16.25 boats per year

Of the 130 boats, 36 boats have not exceeded 1783 (end of the war)

Life "for the period" (from construction to radiation of the French Royal Navy) for 36 boats: 2 years and 2 months

In war, the life of a boat is very small, it is quite normal.

Note that I did not mention the boats already built or under construction at the beginning of the conflict.

For the period, the breakdown of boats built:

52 frigates

4 brigs and snows

13 corvettes

19 cutters

39 vessels

3 luggers

[William Hoste]

New to forums & the game, but I was crew on HMS Surprise for five years (main rail captain).  My work schedule no longer allows me the time to be involved as much as I was before, but I'm happy to answer any questions people may have about the ship.

Edited May 16, 2015 by William Hoste

[Welsh]

Shes a beauty.

[maturin]

New to forums & the game, but I was crew on HMS Surprise for five years (main rail captain).  My work schedule no longer allows me the time to be involved as much as I was before, but I'm happy to answer any questions people may have about the ship.

What's the hardest they've sailed her? Did she ever show any decent turns of speed? Is she considered top-heavy after having all the heavier upperworks and larger rig added to the original Rose?

 

Whenever it comes to extant sailing vessels I always want to waylay a member of the crew and extract a full sailing quality report out of them.

[William Hoste]

 

What's the hardest they've sailed her?

 

Not very, unfortunately.  San Diego isn't a windy place except rare spring storms.  We had fore and main royals aloft in 14 knots of wind in the channel outside the bay, and plain sail in 20 knots gusting to 24 off San Pedro near LA.  In her current condition, she wouldn't bear any high winds or heavy swells.

 

 

 

 Did she ever show any decent turns of speed?

 

For a 24 gun sixth-rate, no. For a fouled bathtub, fair. Getting enough headway to tack without wearing after missing stays or boxhauling was a momentous occasion.  However, Fox did over engine her pretty drastically. Fire up the diesels and get your water skis.

 

 

 

 Is she considered top-heavy after having all the heavier upperworks and larger rig added to the original Rose?

 

The rig itself is not much heavier than what she wore as the Rose.  Unfortunately, a combination of insufficient ballast, a very heavy bow after Fox's reconstruction, the missing flying jib, and the height of the foremast mean that she's almost always pressed down on her forefoot.  It's hard to make way when the bow is constantly trying to bury itself in the swell.  It also means she pitches famously in anything more than moderate seas.

 

She's happiest on a beam or broad reach.  Anything more than a close reach, she'll lose way and fall off.  Running before the wind makes everyone sick and the forepeak wet.  We flew our PORCELLA NOSTRA flag with good reason.

[maturin]

 

Getting enough headway to tack without wearing after missing stays or boxhauling was a momentous occasion.

You boxhauled her? I was under the impression that that was something of an emergency maneuver that put a lot of stress on the rudder.

[Ryan21]

We boxhauled Lady Washington all the time in battle sails with the Hawaiian Chieftain, the amount of stress is dependant on wind speed of course, the most intense boxhaul we ever did was in 20-25 knots in redwood city inside the San Francisco Bay during a battlesail.  

 

I have an article in an old magazine called pacific time machines that talks about when the Rose was built, the young man who had her commisioned negotiated with the shipbuilders in Lunenberg over the design and they sneakily hollowed out her bow section just below the waterline, significantly more than the admiralty design, to give her a much sharper entry and better speed capability.  She was built without an engine and on her first voyage she had only like 3/4's of her ballast onboard.  There is this great picture of her heeled right the hell over, cracking on with everything flying into Boston Harbour at over 11 knots, sending up a beautiful bow wave.  Right after the picture was taken they carried away the main topgallant mast due to the main topgallant staysail being set in wind gusting up into the 20's.  

 

I have no doubt that when she was new as a sail training vessel in her Rose trim she was probably a significantly better performer.  Unfortunately the movie industry often makes very sad work of our beloved ships.  We are still fixing Lady from some of the "movie modifications" they did for Pirates.  They cut a number of gunports into her sides and afterwards they were covered up in a very slipshod manner, those sections of the bulwarks need to be re planked and caulked bad.

[Surcouf]

Welcome!

It's very nice to have a sailor like you onboard.

Assumes that all the data you can supply will be welcome for Devs.

If you can give us different speeds depending on the weather and the number of sails brought against the different gaits.

The times of the going about depending on the weather and types of sails are interesting.

What are the best sails for different caps (heading ?)

Reducing sail depending on the wind strength.

You see, many questions !!!

But all that you can give will compare these with the Devs already have.

(Sorry for my English)

[Destraex]

So when is the next movie with her and perhaps le-hermione!

[maturin]

We boxhauled Lady Washington all the time in battle sails with the Hawaiian Chieftain, the amount of stress is dependant on wind speed of course, the most intense boxhaul we ever did was in 20-25 knots in redwood city inside the San Francisco Bay during a battlesail.

I have an article in an old magazine called pacific time machines that talks about when the Rose was built, the young man who had her commisioned negotiated with the shipbuilders in Lunenberg over the design and they sneakily hollowed out her bow section just below the waterline, significantly more than the admiralty design, to give her a much sharper entry and better speed capability. She was built without an engine and on her first voyage she had only like 3/4's of her ballast onboard. There is this great picture of her heeled right the hell over, cracking on with everything flying into Boston Harbour at over 11 knots, sending up a beautiful bow wave. Right after the picture was taken they carried away the main topgallant mast due to the main topgallant staysail being set in wind gusting up into the 20's.

Do you have that picture handy? I can't find hardly any decent pictures of Rose.

[William Hoste]

I can't find the picture either, but it's an amazing shot. It used to be in one of the galleries on tallshiprose.org before their pictures site went down.

I have no doubt that when she was new as a sail training vessel in her Rose trim she was probably a significantly better performer. Unfortunately the movie industry often makes very sad work of our beloved ships. We are still fixing Lady from some of the "movie modifications" they did for Pirates. They cut a number of gunports into her sides and afterwards they were covered up in a very slipshod manner, those sections of the bulwarks need to be re planked and caulked bad.

Bingo. Fox crippled her, and the money hasn't been made available for heavy maintenance and upgrades. Apart from replacing the for and main jeers with the Rose's old rigging iron, and replacing the plywood blocks, very little has changed from the Fox rig.

Edited May 16, 2015 by William Hoste

[Ryan21]

I recall Captain Bailey talking about Rose awhile ago, saying that the last time he saw her many of her structural members are little better than sawdust, and it would be cheaper to build a new one.  I always dreamed of sailing on Rose, it broke my heart when I first got to see her in San Diego in the winter of 2013.  Let me get those pictures.  This magazine is my treasure, it also has an article of the building of Lynx and Lady Washington.

[Ryan21]

Alright guys, you ready for some hot and heavy Not safe for work photo action????

 

Here ya go

[maturin]

Wow, that's an awful lot of hulling showing!

 

Also, might that not be the weirdest sailplan in sail training history? Her maintopsail is furled with the t'gallant set. Were they trying to get as much air to the staysails as possible, while beating into the harbor?

 

I've seen one picture of a t'gallant set without the topsail in Harland, but it was for running dead downwind.

[William Hoste]

I recall Captain Bailey talking about Rose awhile ago, saying that the last time he saw her many of her structural members are little better than sawdust, and it would be cheaper to build a new one.  I always dreamed of sailing on Rose, it broke my heart when I first got to see her in San Diego in the winter of 2013.  Let me get those pictures.  This magazine is my treasure, it also has an article of the building of Lynx and Lady Washington.

 

I'd say that's a fair assessment of her condition.  The keel is structurally sound, but she's hogged 18 inches over the length of the keel.  The steel knees are heavily rusted, and the oak knees range from fair to poor condition. The frames and scantlings are the same.  The outer planking and weather decking are the parts of the hull most urgently in need of replacing, followed by the structural work Fox did.  The MMSD simply can't afford it at the moment, what with the construction of the San Salvador taking every available penny they have (which has led to many other financial issues for the Museum and in my opinion endangered other historic pieces of the collection). Unfortunately, if Surprise doesn't get what she needs soon, there won't be any point to doing it later.  To bring her back to good sailing condition would essentially require replacing the entire ship, piece by piece.  It's no wonder that Captain Bailey stopped answering the Museum's calls.

 

To think a few years ago they were in the process of finding, purchasing and restoring all of the Rose's original deck guns and getting the studdingsails and booms out of storage.  Not to mention the spritsail and trysail.  Unfortunately, the cost to rebuild her is too great for anything to be done, and by replacing her the Museum would lose the claim to fame tie-in with the film.  With our captain now having left the Museum as well they can't sail her, and she'll more than likely remain a dockside attraction until something major happens, for better or for worse.  I'm glad I got five years sailing with her and an excellent crew, but I wouldn't hold your breath for major developments.

 

Also, might that not be the weirdest sailplan in sail training history? Her maintopsail is furled with the t'gallant set. Were they trying to get as much air to the staysails as possible, while beating into the harbor?

 

I'd say that' probably pretty accurate.  We practiced this in case we wanted to sail out of San Pedro one year, but we never ended up doing it.  She would never have pointed up far enough to make it worth while anyway.

[Ryan21]

I would have doused the main topgallant, and the main topgallant staysail, and set the main topsail in that situation.  Those two little sails put huge pressure on the topgallantmast together, especially in any kind of real sailing breeze like in the photo.  And the main topsail would likely provide more thrust than both of the little sails together.  It could be that they simply hadn't run the sheets and gear for that sail yet, in that photo she only is just getting to Boston from Lunenburg for the first time.

[Ryan21]

Here is a quote from the article that makes me smile every time I read it.

 

This is the designer of the ship

 

"She arrived off president roads in a brisk and squally northwest wind, having outsailed the motorship supposed to tow her, and proceeded to beat up into Boston Harbour, logging 11 knots close hauled with little stern wave (vindicating my shortening of her run) and tacking without difficulty.  There was some hitch in the gear that prevented bracing the course yards to the intended limit, and too few in her crew to see properly to her topgallant yards, so she looks a little haywire in the photo's.  Her speed and handyness in light flotation and with no propellors to drag was impressive, however, and startled some yachts that attempted to escort her in.  But the new rigging was visibly stretching and the state of her upper spars looked more and more precarious with each tack, especially as she continued to carry the big maintopgallant stays'l, which I had warned about several times.  At last there was a sharp squall; she heeled quite a lot--perhaps 15 degrees or more-- and the maintopgallantmast broke about three feet above the cap of the topmast."

Seems to have been quite a flier in her youth

[Surcouf]

How sad to read what you say about the state of the Surprise. When I think that country like the United States manages to maintain a frigate USS Constitution and the USS Constellation but also great battleship of WWII, I dont have understand that restoring a beautiful small frigate is impossible...

Even the small country of old France is to rebuild a big frigate of 12-pdr. OK it took us 18 years to do but damn she is crossing the Atlantic to visit the Americans.

Why drop the Surprise ???

It's really sad ...

And if you bring the Surprise on the east coast by road and you make a transatlantic to France in Rochefort, with a American good team and the volunteers who built l'Hermione maybe we could do something?

[William Hoste]

It was a great opportunity while it lasted (also got to sail Californian, and I was invited on Lynx​ a few times while she was out here).  Unfortunately, it's as much political within the museum as it is financial.  Not sure if it's something I want to get into on a public forum, but anyone interested can PM me.  

[Ryan21]

Unfortunately theres almost always a political side to these things.

[maturin]

"She arrived off president roads in a brisk and squally northwest wind, having outsailed the motorship supposed to tow her, and proceeded to beat up into Boston Harbour, logging 11 knots close hauled with little stern wave (vindicating my shortening of her run) and tacking without difficulty.  There was some hitch in the gear that prevented bracing the course yards to the intended limit, and too few in her crew to see properly to her topgallant yards, so she looks a little haywire in the photo's.  Her speed and handyness in light flotation and with no propellors to drag was impressive, however, and startled some yachts that attempted to escort her in. 

11 knots and not just close-hauled but pinching right up against the wind. That does the heart good; even the real frigate with a professional crew couldn't have asked for better.

 

Sounds like they couldn't get the topsail to set properly because the lower yards wouldn't brace around far enough. Probably the usual problem with the futtock shrouds and forestay getting in the way.

 

Does Lady have to fiddle put carthings on the shrouds or slack any of the lower yard gear in order to brace sharp up?

 

 

 

Even the small country of old France is to rebuild a big frigate of 12-pdr. OK it took us 18 years to do but damn she is crossing the Atlantic to visit the Americans.

Small country or no, France has a certain advantage here. In France it is normal to spend public money to support your culture and preserve your heritage. The only American heritage that gets government funding is the tax cut.

[Ryan21]

The only government funded ship in Canada the Bluenose two has become a complete debacle, poorly managed, orginal rebuilding costs estimated around 5 million and now they have spent 20 million and climbing, on a fishing schooner....  It pains me, and the people who live in Nova Scotia who's money the government has spent.  The Canadian public that know about tallships usually are not willing to spend public money to fund them, we only have a small handfull in the country anyway.

 

The Lady has Catharpins setup on the lower and topmast shrouds, when the shrouds are slack you bowse the catharpins in with lashings, frap the lashings and then you set up the shrouds.  If you want to brace the course as sharp as possible cast off the lifts, let it hang in the sling only and brace away, if the lifts are made fast you get a slight tourniquet effect of the yard canting slightly and not wanting to brace all the way.  

[maturin]

The only government funded ship in Canada the Bluenose two has become a complete debacle, poorly managed, orginal rebuilding costs estimated around 5 million and now they have spent 20 million and climbing, on a fishing schooner.... 

I've got the inside scoop on that SNAFU. Apparently the government in all its wisdom hired an engineer instead of a naval architect, who promptly went about creating a boat-shaped 'structure' capable of surviving a meteor strike. Grossly overweight because they used some tropical hardwood, and a steel rudder that weighs several tons. It is almost impossible to steer her because it takes several men to move that enormous rudder, especially when the boat is heeling. Because, obviously, steel isn't buoyant. They've quietly admitted that they've ended up with an unsailable vessel.

[Ryan21]

Its ludicrous.  Really frustrating to me as a Canadian.  Not only did they use tropical hardwoods on the structural components, they chose to have the belowdecks lavishly furnished in solid bloody exotic hardwood trim, if you see pictures below decks she looks like she was fitted out to be a Rockafeller's yacht, not a faithful replica of a fishing schooner.  Sadly most of our tallships in Canada have this tendancy to reflect more of millionaire yachting culture in the way they are built, manned, and operated than simply preserving our naval heritage.

 

The other thing that makes me nuts is WE built the Rose, The Bounty, the new American sail training ship Oliver Hazard Perry, but they all end up in America.  It's like Canada is allergic to period square riggers.  The real irony of the Oliver Hazard Perry is that it was originally built in Ontario and was supposed to be HMS Detroit, the flagship of the British squadron in the battle of Lake Erie, fighting against Perry.  But the project was yet again poorly executed and had bad public opinion, they didn't get the government grants they were looking for and after close to 20 years all they had was a partially built steel hull.  So logically we sell it to the US for a song, and now she is rigged and ready to go as the largest fully rigged ship to be built new in "America" in the last hundred years, and of course re named after the Commodore that defeated her.  

 

http://www.ohpri.org/

 

Read this article, it makes me feel even less patriotic than I usually feel about Canada, which isn't much to begin with.  Similar time frame to L'Hermione, but was obviously in the wrong hands from the start.

 

http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/story.html?id=5588ff0c-4885-4ea0-87a1-6029ee6db8c6

[maturin]

Wow, I wasn't aware of the origins of the Perry. Talk about adding insult to injury.

 

Back on a happier note, I thought I'd point out that Rose sailed into New York harbor even faster than we imagine, in historical terms.

 

Because of how the British measured speed using the log, Rose's rate of sailing of 11 knots would have been recorded as closer to 12 and a half knots by a period crew. It's hard to find sailing quality reports of a ship reaching that speed, especially for such a slight wee thing as Rose. So they built a damned fine frigate, although I'm sure the lack of ballast and weight might've helped.