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Open world, global map and related topics

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Please discuss all topics related to open world and global map here.
 

Question to everyone

what is to your opinion a comfortable time to travel from Calais to Cherbourg?

Or from London to Lisbon?

 

Of course taking into account that you, your crew, will level during this trip, and your cargo will be profitably sold at destination and danger awaits for you everywhere.

 


 

On the travel times, from Lisbon to London I would say, around 10-15 minutes, counting the occasional fight, 6-10 minutes without a fight.

 

It's hard to say an opinion, since I don't know how long a battle takes to finish in Naval Action.

 

Keep up building this marveillous piece of art!

Edited by slik

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First of all, very nice ship! I hope to see more and more ships arrive as game starts to grow. I am happy to see some nice land textures, but no plants or trees. :unsure:

 

 

Question to everyone

what is to your opinion a comfortable time to travel from Calais to Cherbourg?

Or from London to Lisbon?

 

If you guys played GTA5, the time in that game feels great. A full day in GTA5 takes 48 minutes real time.

One hour takes 2 minutes. Game time does not stop when pausing in GTA Online. I hope to have a nice 24 hour day in Naval Action, I would like to see sunsets and sunrises just like in GTA5. GTA5 made an incredibly detailed ocean, animation, reflection, colors, clouds, sun rays, day/night cycles etc... I hope you will take a lot from them. 

Anyways, here is my concept using Google map 20mi marker:

example.jpg

20 mi = 1 game hour

1 game hour = 2 real time minutes

A travel from Calais to Cherbourg will take: 7.3 game hours or 14.6 mins in real time with good wind ,and 10.95 game hours or 21.9 mins real time with bad.

Lets say default ship open sea speed is 10 for my calculations, ship will sail 20mi every/1 game hour, and 2 real time minutes. You can tweak ship speed: 0- - - - 5- - - - 10 - - - - 15 - - - - 20. For example 20 will be set for a very light and fast little boats, when 8 will be set for heavy slow moving boats etc. In my case 10 is default (middle). In battle actual stats ship speed should not effect Open Sea speed. Each type of ship should have preset Open Sea speed using a meter I shown or something similar. So, how to change speed and calculate time?

 

0- - - - 5- - - - 10 - - - - 15 - - - - 20  - Open sea speed meter

0- - - - 0.5- - - - 1.0 - - - - 1.5 - - - - 2.0  - Game hours every 20mi

 

 

SO, if 10 is default value for open sea speed:

 

10 Open sea Speed    10

20mi                            20

1.0 game hour            1.0

2 real time minutes       2

 

Lets say I am in a slow hauling boat:

 

8 Open sea Speed preset on my boat as default   8

20mi                                                                       20

1.2 game hour                                                       1.2

2.2 real time minutes                                              2.4

 

why 1.2? ship is slower so you select 8 on a OS meter, this means you have to increase time traveled by 2 (if 10 is default) opposite value on game hours meter, and also calculate minutes in real time in this case : when default formula 1.0=2 , 1.2=2.4 real time minutes (1.2x2=-2.4) if I am correct...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

good wind 7.3x2=14.6, that is where (1.0x7+0.3=7.3).

 

bad wind   10.95x2=21.9, that is where (1.5x7+0.45=10.95)

 

For bad wind, I simply increased game 20mi/hr from 1.0-->1.5 or +.5 for all when talking about each ship OS speed.

 

 

 

So, if I started a sail when it was 5pm on game clock, I would see a sunset and would arrive to destination port at night game time. Also, Storm, heavy wind etc, should have a small penalty to a speed. Example, when a player sails into a storm zone his/her speed will be -10%. or lets say +.005 to each OS ship speed stat. (including bad wind penalty when needed)

 

Let me know what you think. :D

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Oh, wow! I cannot beat Wind when it comes to map making, time and distance suggestions! You really make me feel dumb, in a good way :P

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Yes)) just want to make sure you will not miss it..hehe :D

 

Your timing and map calculations are awesome. 14 mins from Calais to Cherbourg will mean that i will sail  for 1 hour to Stockholm or lisbon. Don't you think it is too much?

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Your timing and map calculations are awesome. 14 mins from Calais to Cherbourg will mean that i will sail  for 1 hour to Stockholm or lisbon. Don't you think it is too much?

No, because in this situation you can make all players happy.

1. Those who like to travel at sea and enjoy long journeys. 100% chance of being attacked.

2. Those who like to speed up their travel but still enjoy some time at sea (-50%, 20% chance of being attacked  travel time token for sale at your store or aquired by doing dailys/ missions. Token spawns you half way through to a destination port, so your travel distance is -50%) 

3. Those who do not like to spend time traveling at sea (autopilot with warship escort feature , 0% chance of being attacked, player will not see how his ship sail, passive travel action.

 

Selling trinkets in your shop like GW2 does.

 

but this is just a concept, you can tweak all numbers into smaller values... if you plan to add massive world. The bigger the world the faster ships will sail on the Open sea.

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Question for the devs: 

 

So is sailing to point a to b going to be done in real or in game time same as battles? Just one big 3d rendered world. Which me personally I would prefer, not speaking for anyone else.

 

Or with will there be a map view like say Age of Pirates 2 and POTBS? Were only battle instances be 3d rendered with full detail.

 

Or will it be Zone to Zone?

 

Or Still to Early?

 

I know we had this discussion a few months back, but it was more just a feed back thread. 

 

Also like wind was saying GTA series and Elder Scrolls I think had a really good time system in place. 45 minutes to an hour is one day cycle. So signed on that Idea.

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Looks awesome!

 

I don't think 15 is too long from Calais to Cherbourg.

 

Uncharted Waters Online has some pretty long travel times and they are still in business.   I think London to Lisbon might be in the 14 minute range, depends on the prevailing winds and the players knowledge.   50min Lisbon to Calicut and you need a knowledge of the prevailing winds.  In fact, the ONLY thing I like about Uncharted Waters Online is the long voyages.  A day in UWO is about 3 min 15 sec and the open map is the same as the battle map, it seems arcadeish, at that speed.  Edit: I started playing again, recently, the sun and moon rising and setting, really gives the feeling of time passing, although for some reason the stars don't move.  I think the short days really seems to work, for travelling.

 

 

It depends if a player can log off in the middle of a voyage, if you can log off at sea, longer is better.

 

Activities are good on long voyages, like, sail trimming, fighting storms, fishing, lashing the foremast jacks, etc.

 

I think days can be real short on the big world map when no encounter instance is happening.

 

The sound of the Ocean, Seagulls, the working of the ship can be quite enjoyable.

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I'm all for Wind's time/distance proposal. In my mind it's the nearest thing to the perfect in-game timescale. Short hops like Calais to Cherbourg are brief enough to not be tedious, however long voyages like sailing to the West Indies or North Africa will still be quite lengthy. And I'm okay with this. A lengthy voyage will be more of an epic event for the captain and his crew, as more time planning will be required to undertake such a time at sea. Making sure enough food and fresh water is aboard, that the carpenters stores are well stocked, etc, etc. Having events like a mast being carried away during a storm, or the crew becoming sick will have to be taken into consideration if the captain does not wish to become stranded miles from anywhere. It also means if dev's introduce guilds then they will have to take member placement very seriously. If your guild's fleet is spread out and spends a lot of time away from home port, it will be very difficult to rally a defencive fleet should the port come under fire from an enemy guild. (This is of course total speculation, I have no idea if the dev's are planning on implementing guilds or how they will work if they do.)

 

All in all, great work Game Labs on another fantastic ship model. I look forward to the day NA goes live and I get to play with it!

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I found a solution to time issue.

 

Like in Guild Wars 2, players must first open all spawn points and then use them for a fee to travel long distances. We can use the same concept and divide world into sectors. Each sector will have a spawn point area. Players will start a day with 24 sector spawn points (gold tokens), spawn points regenerate 1 every hour and that makes 24/day. Players also can do a daily and refill let’s say 4 spawn points per daily or from a mission…etc.

Rules:

1.       Player can only plan a spawn point route from a port.

2.       Player must pay a fee. (To keep manual sailing and spawn point fast travel balanced.)

3.       End destination cannot be a port. (To prevent port jumping.)

So, let’s say I need to sail from London to New York. I go to a port, there I plan my route. 

London—Sector 1—Sector2—Sector3—Sector4—Sector5—[sector6] is my final closest sector to New York.

I have to pay:

100doubloons X sectors

100X6=600 doubloons.

In this case I have used 6 sector spawn points 24-6=18

The spawn point in New York sector is still far from a port, so I still need to spend 15 mins sailing to get there.  I do like this really much…tell me what do you think.

 

Thanks.

 

 

index.jpg

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Hmmm one thing I was wondering about. So say we do have a massive sand box style map, which would be really cool. A world 3d rendered. What happens say if you get sunk. It would kind of suck for some people, getting sunk then having to be sent back to your point of orgin then that you just sailed say 15 to 20 min from, plus have to repair your ship. Or maybe players could simply re-spawn at the nearest freindly port, which probably would work best.

 

Wind I do like your time compression idea that sounds like what I would want. But I'm not sure if I would want to pay in game DBLs just to spawn somewhere, unless it was set up realistic like. Like say booking passage. So say for example I want to travel from England to the Caribbean, I could go and book passage. If it is a huge map though I think spawn points may just have to be added in large expanses of water regardless, for people who get sunk.  People may grow really tired of traveling for 15 or 20 minutes then getting sunk then having to start over again, so there may just have to be spawn points put in place. If not we may end up with an even worse situation then was in POTBS, were only like 15 % of players are true pvpers and  the rest just hang out were its safe. Because they don't feel like getting sunk and wasting 40 minutes of there time just to get sunk again.

 

Another solution is to have the ability to own more the one ships and leave the at different locations and be able to telliport to them at will. From the sound of it naval action maybe a much larger map. So that might not even be a fix all, so spawn points too.

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Another solution is to have the ability to own more the one ships and leave the at different locations and be able to telliport to them at will. From the sound of it naval action maybe a much larger map. So that might not even be a fix all, so spawn points too.

 

That is an excellent idea for making a larger map more interesting.   

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If you make the distances to small you will ruin factional and territorial warfare, 
the reason eve works is because its big enough to sperarate people, making enclaves of different guilds and local conflicts
another aspect is the economy, if the world is to small it will negate price differences and the need to transport goods. pve will become grind stuff yourself to build make stuff yourself. no transport contracts and less interaction.

if the trip from stockholm to lisbon is less than an hour you can imagine that 1 guild gets control over anything, and whenever you're attacked you're gonna have his friends jump you in minutes.

to make long distances interesting you just have to fill it in. if theres a lot to do in northern europe you dont have to travel to the mediteranian or the carribean. and what is more fun, do a 10 minute haul from cherbourg to calais 6 times or do occasional long trips to lisbon?
and if there is 30 ports on your way to lisbon vs the 6 you pass in the english channel?

small travel times makes for an uninteresting map that you get tired off fast too.

smaller maps also makes for easier gank spots and hotspots, and as i said earlier, its easier for 1 guild to dominate

ideally you would have a large map with long travel times from end to end, but enough content that you wouldnt want to travel from end to end all the times, but base yourself out of some point.

but im a slow player and enjoy the travelling in games

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Wind.. I like your second idea better. Its a difficult balance. I want it to take time to reach other "sectors" but I dont want to be forced to sail for an entire day to cross the ocean. That will bore me to death and I will quickly loose interest. It would likely mean that I would only play in one corner of the global map and not many. I dont think its smart to design a game that discourages players from exploring the map. So... the spawn points would be nice additions especially if you could choose to use them or not so that players who like to sail long distances can. I think it would be reasonable, within a map zone, to take upwards of an hour to cross it using a slower ship. i.e. One end of the Med to the other. There has to be real distance and real time to make the open world map meaningful.

 

Free spawn points could also be a perk to subscribers as well.

 

Another variable would be payed passage to other ports. Port to port. With this addition you could base different ships in different theatres and pay for passage to join your ship whereever it may be.

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I think potbs speed is good, map wise, so if your going to use a bigger map, higher the gen os speed?

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I thought travel times in POTBS were way too short, it didn't feel like a journey and nothing happened unless you attacked something.   Just my opinion.

 

However, if players like me could "beat to quarters" and go into battle mode at any time without enemies around, we could slow the journey down, without forcing other players to sail too long.    Maybe we could shoot at barrels and work up our crew while were at it.

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I thought travel times in POTBS were way too short, it didn't feel like a journey and nothing happened unless you attacked something.   Just my opinion.

 

However, if players like me could "beat to quarters" and go into battle mode at any time without enemies around, we could slow the journey down, without forcing other players to sail too long.    Maybe we could shoot at barrels and work up our crew while were at it.

 

 

Now that is a damned good idea sir, and I love the idea of practicing as they did back in the day with barrels, however I believe the devs are not planning on adding skill trees (which was a previous question of mine) for captain or crew, which makes barrel practice a little unnecessary. I guess the argument would be why shoot and waste time/ammo on a barrel when you can do the same on an NPC? Unless you the captain (player) wanted to enhance your aiming skills without risking your ship... perhaps this would be a good introduction mission for new players?

 

Edited: Devs are planning on putting in skill trees. My bad.

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Potbs travel were really boring and then 1 hour travelling make you feel you play for days... So it really depend how you make people feel into the sea. If it's interesting with storm, creef, battles, ships to rescue, animals to eat (whales, dolphins, big turtle?)etc, you can afford to get long travel.

I would not appreciate to be stick in front on my screen pressing Z the all way waiting hours to join a points. It's something that can make the game boring.

 

So to answer your question we may need more information like the size of the map or how it's going to be, OS battle without instance or instance like in potbs? With the answer we will be more able to answer you.

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i agree that Potbs long distance travel could be boring. That is why I never became a Free Trader but long boring travel was very much a part of real life sailing. I think it would be best if we could choose the long sail or the other activities listed above with the exception of weather which must be dealt with when encountered. I for one would get irritated if I had to go fishing three times a voyage, deal with a storm everytime I took to see, and had to fight all the way to my destination. This may give some the sense of accomplishment over bordom but would double the time it takes to get to where you want to go.

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I agree with Wind and Meatpukk. If you are going to travel a long distance, it should feel a bit like it. To make time pass there should be something else to do while on the ship. The ship has a plotted course and the crew will maintain that course, while you as the player do something else on the ship (minigames?). 

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I'm going to disagree with everyone here. 

 

I think having long journeys for the sake of long journeys is a bad idea. There'll be noting to do on the open seas except watch your ship bounce about in a looped animation. I can't think it'd be any more interested than watching a loading screen for 15 minutes. Long journeys work in Skyrim, GTA and guild wars because there's things for the player to do. These things are absent on the open seas. 

 

I think that 15 minutes from London to Lisbon is much too long. It would mean a journey around the cape to India would take... what, 8 hours? That's a long time to be staring at your screen not doing anything (Trust  me, I'm an accountant, I often spend 8 hours staring at my screen not doing anything). 

 

As for Winds idea with the Tokens... I'm not sold. It feels too gamey and will appear to laymen as an avenue to introduce micro-transactions. 

 

I'd think that shorter trips around europe should be in the few minutes mark. Perhaps 5 minutes between London to Gibraltar. I know this seems short, but just sit ther for 5 minutes reading this message for an idea of how long it is when not filled with activity. This would leave the really long journeys (high risk, high return) to India and South America to be an investment in time without being prohibitive to all but the most hardcore players. 

 

Failing that. I'd prefer an "World Map" view (perhaps styled in 2d 18th century map to save costs) that would allow for faster travel (like Sea dogs).

Caverio_map_medium_res.jpg

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considering this will one day be an open world multiplayer game, you have to balance the travel time.
it should enforce trading, split up the map for different factions.
if you dont have the time to to the extreme trips, split it up into smaller ones, or hire someone to do it for you.

another way to please the people with low attention span or the ones with little time on their hand is to let the AI sail your ship while you are doing something else in another one.

btw if you make a trip from london to gibraltar 5 min, at lets say 12 knots. that would make it 1 nm(1852m) 
making the whole european map roughly 3x3 km. you can shoot at paris from london with muskets, and stand with one foor in africa and one in europe over the "strait"

you shouldnt have to travel to india if you dont have the time there should be plenty to do in europe, or the carribean

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btw if you make a trip from london to gibraltar 5 min, at lets say 12 knots. that would make it 1 nm(1852m) 

making the whole european map roughly 3x3 km. you can shoot at paris from london with muskets, and stand with one foor in africa and one in europe over the "strait"

 

This is the type of comparisson I always like :)

Let's extend it a bit. The distance between London and Gibraltar is about 1324 Nautical Miles (source).

If you could sail this in 5 minutes, you would sail at 29,424 km/hour (18,288 Mile/hour) or 8.2 km/second (5.1 Mile/second).

In other words, you would be sailing at: mach 24.

 

you shouldnt have to travel to india if you dont have the time there should be plenty to do in europe, or the carribean

Logical solution that satisfies both travel speed and boredom counter.

 

~Brigand

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I don't see the point of paying someone to play the game for me, or even having the game play itself for me. I don't' think that very many people will be willing to play a game where your choices are abject boredom or having the game play itself. 

 

In game design fun is more important that realism every day of the week. 

 

In terms of travel speed, is the world map going to be real life sized? The equation you did above assume the gameworld is the same size, which I really doubt.  Essentially discussion about travel speed comes down to 2 decisions.  Modes of travel, and world size. 

 

Modes of travel: Are we going to allow a "world map view" which allows time to be compressed and long journeys to be shown in a shorted time. 

 

If yes then: World size is a non issue. You can make the game world as big as the earth, or as small as Kerbal. 

 

If no then: World size matters, as all travel will be done in real time from a ships POV. In reality, Cook spent 3 years on his first voyage to Australia, Anyone wanting to spend the same time ingame to do the same thing is .... (IMHO) insane. 

 

Really expecting a player to spend 15 minutes babysitting his ship while it sales a (relativly) short distance is going to alienate a very large audience.  DO me a favor, watch this full vid, all 15 minutes of it and then tell me you'd be ok with that being 1 journey in-game, and tell me how preparted you'd be to watch it again for the return leg.

 

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if you think sailing is boring shit, in a game where one of  the core mechanics are sailing. I dont know what you see in this game.
i could easily watch 15 minutes of sailing, ocean, a detailed ship, scanning the horizon for dangers etc. and if i think the long hauls are boring i can just tab out for a while
this isn't a singleplayer game, you can't ignore travel time.

look at eve, over 300k people are playing a game where "your choices are abject boredom or having the game play itself."

you must see past the "fun" in the traveling, and look at the concequences long/short travel times have.
short travel times make traveling trivial and the world accessible
long travel times can make the trip tedious, but facilitates trading, a good economy, interesting world(if made right). and probably the most important factor is the political metagame it creates. this will be a game that has a pvp element, it needs to be balanced for that and short travel times will ruin factional open world games.

about the world size. no one said it was going to be real world size, or that it should. Brigand made a comparison to give your idea some perspective.
if we scale the world you would see how big it would be in my post. with europe being 3x3km
english channel would probably fit 1 ship etc
and im guessing the map will be limited to europe and expand from there as the game progresses you wouldnt have much room to do anything. 

and as i've said before, what is more "fun" spending 8 hours doing ONE trip to india and back with cargo, making you a shitload of money.
or sailing the 5 minute trip from gibraltar to London 1000 times to feed an oversaturated market, at almost no profit

if you hate long travels, dont travel that long. if the game has enough to do in each area, long distance hauls will be for the players that want to take high risks to get high profit
again look at eve. you have people mining locally for corporations inside the regions, then you have haulers taking that to the trading hubs where other corps use those resources locally

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This is the type of comparisson I always like :)

Let's extend it a bit. The distance between London and Gibraltar is about 1324 Nautical Miles (source).

If you could sail this in 5 minutes, you would sail at 29,424 km/hour (18,288 Mile/hour) or 8.2 km/second (5.1 Mile/second).

In other words, you would be sailing at: mach 24.

 

 

 

Ok, so the opposite is:

1324nm  (according to your source) at 13 knots is 101.84 hours. 

Which is about 4.24 days 

Given WInd's suggestion that a day should take 48 minutes, then the above journey should take 3.4 hours.  

 

Do you have 6.8 hours available to you to do one relatively short-distance low-margin trade round trip?

 

Ok, lets talk about going to India, which is a journey of 10 702nm (Cape Hope).  At 13 knots thats 823.23 hours

Which is 34.3 days

AT 48 mins to an hour, that's 1, 646.46 minutes

27.5 hours. 

 

To do a trade run you need to be awake and at your PC continuously for more than a day? Just to get there, never mind the return leg?

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