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'Hellas' Greek Frigate 1826 (With Plans)


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Hellas

Greek frigate

62 guns

1826

 

 

21_21.jpg

 

Characteristics:
Length:54 m
Width: 14m
Tonnage:1728 t
Draft:4.2 m

 

Armament of the Hellas:

48(16 pdr) + 16 carronades(42 pdr)

 

Sistership USS Hudson: https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=2412

From "History of the American Sailing Navy" by Howard Chapelle:

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"The Sailing Navy, 1775-1854" by Paul H. Silverstone:

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Also, from  "Register of Ships of the U.S. Navy, 1775-1990: Major Combatants"  by Karl Jack Bauer, Stephen S. Roberts

eb7767f46711deafcba7ab23fa8d0a29.png

"American Heavy Frigates 1794-1826" by Mark Lardas:

79509a5e6634648ea80b3cfb80f09fa8.png4cc8b605f460bd2eab729c1a52e7373c.png

 

 

Better resolution plans here: https://openlibrary.org/books/OL24398454M/The_history_of_the_American_sailing_Navy 

Her plans:

 

 

 

 

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Sources

:http://www.history.navy.mil/research/histories/ship-histories/danfs/h/hudson-i.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_frigate_Hellas

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ελλάς_Ι_(φρεγάτα)

 

Model: http://greekshipmodels.com/ships/fregata-ellas/

Model of the Hellas in the Greek War Musuem: https://imgur.com/gallery/gGxuH

 

 

Edited by Sella22
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So this is one of the post-war American 44s with the fully armed spar deck...

 

Which puts her at 62 guns. Interesting ship but not sure I'd put it ingame, would rather shadow the Constitution if there is a "very similar but slightly more powerful" version kicking around.

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As i stated above,no i couldnt find any on the internet.I can contact the Greek Nautical Museum but i dont think that the plans are going to be there.I will try anyway.
I guess our best chance is that somebody from the USA contact a museum or something and search for the plans of the USS Hudson because she is her sister ship.The Hudson was built for the Greek government but she was claimed by the USA when the Greeks were unable to pay for her.

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I hope the game has no ships with armed spar decks or spar deck bulwarks (Including England's razees, which are very much in-period for the game).

They are just an aesthetic disaster. And unlike the Santi, they had no serious design drawbacks that could make them a specialty item. Leander and Newcastle would be as common as brigs and rule the waves.

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Any idea if that blue/white paint scheme was at all historical (to any part of her short career)?  I'd probably trust the black/white scheme more, as the more common colors often indicate the less expensive and thus much more common ones.  But, it would be interesting for possible future custom painting of boats in the open world.

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I asked about the paint scheme where the scale model is exhibited and they said that the color scheme was by 90% black/white.They can't be sure because there weren't many sources back then,especially during a revolution.

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Waiting for more info from the Greek Navy's Department of history :D If I don't find any ship plans about this one I have an entirely Greek-built corvette that I will propose and chances of finding ship plans for this are higher.

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I hope the game has no ships with armed spar decks or spar deck bulwarks (Including England's razees, which are very much in-period for the game).

They are just an aesthetic disaster. And unlike the Santi, they had no serious design drawbacks that could make them a specialty item. Leander and Newcastle would be as common as brigs and rule the waves.

 

 

I hope they are in the game (not the Hellas or Hudson, speaking about Leander/Newcastle and Razees).  Cost and maintenance is how you offset them.  Could also make them a premium ship.  Razees are slower than a Trinc or Coni, correct?  Brigs are fast in this game, so it won't be like Mr Midshipman Hornblower.   Razee couldn't catch any of the frigates except a cerb.

Edited by Prater
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I hope they are in the game (not the Hellas or Hudson, speaking about Leander/Newcastle and Razees).  Cost and maintenance is how you offset them.  Could also make them a premium ship.  Razees are slower than a Trinc or Coni, correct?  Brigs are fast in this game, so it won't be like Mr Midshipman Hornblower.   Razee couldn't catch any of the frigates except a cerb.

Cost and maintenance will never, ever work as an offset. It's impossible to imagine any frigate more than 50% costlier to build and operate than your average 44. (Live oak aside.) Any realistic price increase will only ever be a drop in the bucket for power-gaming players.

 

If it's a decent sailer with superior firepower, players will pay any price, and the ocean will be clogged with super frigates. The only way you could have a hope of using cost to balance the ship 'ecosystem' is with exaggerated, exorbitant penalties. Eg, Naval Action's spar-decked frigates are ballasted with emeralds and sapphires, and thus cost 600% as much to build. At this point, there's no point claiming to represent actual economics and maintenance concerns at all.

 

Large spar-decked frigates had no drawbacks. As a class, they very quickly started outsailing most everything that came before them, with consistently good performance, solid handling and no quirks or shortcomings on a particular point of sail. They represented a major stride forward in naval architecture, with many old debates and theories about performance finally resolved. (This didn't have anything to do with the spar deck itself, of course.)

 

The ugly spar-decked razees like Leander and Newcastle won't be the fastest, it's true. But if they are relatively slow, it's only because the devs are mostly modelling the very fastest frigates of the Age of Sail: Leda-class, Renommee, Endymion.

 

 

My main concern is that spar-decked English and French frigates that are just barely inside the time period (French 30-pounders, for example) will show up and dominate with their superior qualities and dismal 19th century brutalist appearance. The same goes for American SoLs and their European contemporaries.

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I'm often told that Eve proves my point, with hideously expensive Titans everywhere, dominating the game to the point where only masochistic grinders can be competitive. But I've never played, so it's all hearsay to me.

Anyway, I'd forgotten some of the facts underlying my concerns.

The British razeed 74s were quite successful, with frigate-like performance without the heavy rolling and heel. But it's Leander and Newcastle that are really gamebreakingly OP. Fourth rates with the broadside of an 80-gun ship, equal to the fastest British frigate (Endymion), as long as there is enough wind. In the two definitive sources on British and French frigates, only Leander and Renommee were claimed to hit 14 knots. And these two spar deckers handled better in rough conditions, too. It would be quite a shock to be run down by one in your Trinc.

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Titans aren't everywhere, they are only brought out for major battles, and if someone brings them out without escort, easily killed by scores of smaller ships.

 

United States Class (Constitution) was supposedly faster than the Leda class frigates IRL correct? and isn't in the game.  Leander took part in the War of 1812 if I remember right, I just think it should be in game.

 

All ships have strengths and weaknesses, pros and cons.  Make them premium ships, that would cut down on number too.  There's plenty of things that can be done to make a ship not so numerous.  Cost, manufacture difficulty, manufacture time, maintenance, etc.

Edited by Prater
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I like it. Normally I don't like flush-deckers, but there's something about this one that I find attractive...

 

Yeah I know what you mean.  It has a very, very unique look to it being a two-deck ship with flush decks.  This is one I think would make an excellent addition.

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I've never seen a report on Connie's speed that comes from a cited source. The figure of 13 knots is scattered around the internet, which is a sort of speed ceiling that many fast frigates reach but few exceed (by much). The equal of Leda-class or slightly behind.

Making the best ships premium is the very definition of Pay to Win and may result in howls of outrage.

I'm just really concerned that building everything possible on the extreme end of the time scale is going to make me a patsy for sailing anything older. Leander runs down and massacres the 3rd Rate Ingermanland, for instance. If it goes far enough, historical stats will be jettisoned. Far better to balance at the shipwright's drawing board.

At the end of the day, I don't want an endgame dominated by hyper modern post 1813 designs. I also want Constitution to be exceptional, whereas a lack of builder's discretion will render her quite ordinary.

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Titans aren't everywhere, they are only brought out for major battles, and if someone brings them out without escort, easily killed by scores of smaller ships.

 

United States Class (Constitution) was supposedly faster than the Leda class frigates IRL correct? and isn't in the game.  Leander took part in the War of 1812 if I remember right, I just think it should be in game.

 

All ships have strengths and weaknesses, pros and cons. 

 

I'm not sure how it is by now, but cap-ship proliferation was (two year ago?) a serious problem. The number of supercaps alliances were able to field was used as a deterrent. It made sure big alliances stayed on top while smaller alliances were crushed. After you have build your 50th titan, they are not so precious any more and you can start having fun with the next batch, they did.

 

To illustrate the issue:

I like small ships (you my have noticed that I like small ships here, I liked small ship in EVE Online as well) and I like scouting. So, fleet commanders liked sending me out there in my 'big bad' dual prop Taranis interceptor.

 

On some Friday, I was scouting ahead for a fleet which may or may not turn out big enough to jump in enemy null-sec for an fight that evening. I gate in, system after system. racing to my strategically pre-placed gate bookmarks until I get noticed by some drakes (no problem) and I jump the next gate.

In the next system, I run into 2 supercaps (two Nyxes and a Revelation), waiting for me. These guys are bored and start chasing me. They predict my route or get intel on me and jump after (or ahead) of me. After 10? minutes or so of frantic racing and jumping (another revelation and a machariel had by now joined in)., I'm tackled and webbed after getting caught in a bubble resulting in me riding the clone express back home.

In other words, some guys choose to chase (one of) the smallest ship in the game with some of the very biggest ones.

 

So, will the most outrageous cost make sure people don't use the biggest ships all the time? In the beginning: sure, after a while? After a while, they are just expensive toys, used to trash boredom on whatever they come across.

 

~Brigand

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@Maturin: While pointing out something before it can potentially become an issue is good, I don't think there's a lot of sense in panicking right now. I mean, if the Leander's introduction into the game would prove to be truly game-breaking, perhaps the devs will have the sense not to introduce it. 

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