Chance to Change History

[JonnyH13]

Before reading this is not meant to be a complaint, just a question on how to have a chance to win.

 

Unless it is just me it seems like it is very hard if not impossible for the union to win this map against a competent confederate general given that they are outnumbered and have poor quality troops (besides the Iron Brigade.  Speaking of quality I wonder how the first day would have went if 2nd corp came instead of the 11th).  It is obvious that holding Oak Hill is futile and holding Oak Ridge also extends the line where it can easily be outflanked and crushed and weaken the line as a whole.  The same thing can be said to Seminary Ridge to a lesser extent but if that and everything north of it falls the Union lose (13000 Vp to 9000 Vp).  

It seems to be implied that the Union must destroy the confederates as they come in piecemeal but that task is difficult because of how hard it is to puch the confederates off Herr's ridge, the unpredictable reinforcements, the fact that Johnson's division(I think) may outflank and surround the Union army as they attack, and Early's division coming in to take Culp's Hill late game via attack between Benner's Hill and Wolf's Hill which is heavily forested.  If there are enough Union forces to prevent Early from taking Culp's Hill then the other locations such as Seminary ridge would fall.  

 

I have played as the confederates several times and all I had to do was wait for all of my reinforcements(besides Early) and then make a massive push mid-game to force the union general to weaken defenses around Cemetery and Culp's Hill which made them prone to an outflanking attack by Early.  There is also the possibility of an effective attack from the southern portion of Seminary Ridge using Pender's Division.  There are so many possibilities for the confederates and so little troops the Union has to defend so many positions with.  Any advice?  Please point out anything I missed if I did miss anything.

Edited March 17, 2015 by JonnyH13

[No Pasaran]

I had an opponent a few months ago (MP) that reinforced Oak hill VP area (1000pts), i had to fight em brigade's and burst em as they presented a real threat to my rear and all the VP area's conquered!

This took up a fair bit of time to dispose of these brigade's ultimately i failed to gain the ground where i could have captured VP's.

 

So in conclusion if the union don't mind sacrificing 2-3 brigade's the union stand a good chance of getting that Victory. Or you just hope that ur opponent is cautious.       

[RichardMcCor]

Thats a tough one. A top player was commenting in a different post recently about how to best win as Union. I made this summary of what he was discussing. Any errors or issues in this interpretation are mine not his.

 

If I get a chance to play this scenario tonight as Union i'll note what I do and send it out with advice on best locations for the ARTY.

 

Remember you get lots of reserves in this one so "No Pasaran" example of sending your early troops to the northern Oak VP's is good. Your later reserves will come from the south and be able to hang onto the south ones.

 

Union best advice(from a different scenario to this one but still valid)

 

- Reserves - You normally have more reserves than the CSA. You must use them to your advantage

       i) Move your reinforcements to where they are needed. Don't let them sit and wait

       ii) Use all available reserves to flank fast

- Arty - Can inflict heavy casualties when placed well 

      i) Manually change ammo of arty to ensure max damage (shell vs canister)

      ii) Deploy to strategic locations with aim to inflict many casualties , esp up high

      iii) Flanking fire is key, put your arty where they can enfilade

- Charge - Don't just let the CSA come at you

      i) Does not hesitate to charge at the right moment (watch for your opponent to start to waver)

[The Collectors Showcase]

Again a too polite way to describe a serious weakness in the game.

I play this map all the time as Union, it is difficult for sure, it illustrates the problem with Union vs Confederate moral. Confederates are programmed as cyborg warriors. Never dying or running off the map even after losing half their strength. Union units basically cannot attack. The morale is so low They can Only defend, or block its that simple.

You can win as Union but you have to be Very shrewd and experienced and on top of it all Lucky! I don't bother playing confederate anymore as it's just too easy. Union is for advanced players only, but your correct the game has serious flaws in regards to balanced engagements. It's a simple fact. But you got to just love the game! It really is a lot of fun. A union victory on this map is like three wins in a row. So it's worth a go.

 

[Nick Thomadis]

In the upcoming gameplay & AI patch any left over balance issue in multiplayer should be resolved, so all maps would be more balanced. 

[Aggressive_Kunst]

I think its difficult to adjust balance, if you change unit quality here (only option because it should be historically accurate), you change the balance of all 1.day scenarios.

 

I guess best way would be to change vp amounts.

Maybe cancel oak hill, decrease Herr Ridge, Lutheran Seminary, rise culps hill or cemetary hill or similar.

 

Historically all vps but culps and cemetary were worth 0p

[David Fair]

Interesting...I've never seen vps mentioned in any historical account of the battle or seen any reference to vps in any of the reports in the entire command chain in either army at Gettysburg.

 

Why talk about "historically" and vps in the same sentence?

 

Gettysburg was about destroying one army or the other - who held Culp's Hill at Gettysburg was irrelevant to both Lincoln, Davis, and the war effort.

[Aggressive_Kunst]

Well, iam refering to the historical happenings.

All positions but culps, cemitary and the roundtops had no strategical importance in the end. Which theoretically means all worth nothing.

Of course the armies weren t fighting for vp but for position.

[Nick Thomadis]

Of course in any battle, the capturing of a hill does not give in reality any victory point but has strategic importance that must be measured in a game.

Because hills matter in this game, to have victory points for meaningful locations it is I think not bad. In gameplay it helps to create the branched scenario system, helps AI to understand if it has to attack or defend and forces players in multiplayer to not camp but act. 

[David Fair]

Hills provide tactical advantages on battlefields.  They have nothing whatsoever to do with military strategy.  Neither Meade nor Lee instructed their armies to go to Gettysburg and sit on Culp's Hill as the strategic point for winning a battle at Gettysburg.

 

UGG is a tactical game.  The vps are tactical metrics for your game engine.

 

It's your game!

 

But military terms should be used properly.  There is a vast difference between a tactical advantage gained by taking a hill and that hill providing a strategic advantage for an army.  Meade's strategy was to take ground that was advantageous and fight a defensive battle.  This strategy could have been accomplished at Pipe Creek, or Gettysburg.  There were numerous lines tactical positions that could have been chosen at Gettysburg - Seminary Ridge line - for example.

 

There is nothing magical or strategic about Culp's Hill per se - it simply offered the best tactical advantages remaining to the Union after the loss of the Seminary Ridge line.

[davidgcox]

regarding the importance of cemetery hill, it has been said "it's the only position."

[Lincolns Mullet]

Unfortunately VP's are a standard game element thats necessary, as Nick pointed out, for various reasons. Meade and Lee were able to focus on destroying the other army because there were greater political and strategic implications that we, as players of UGG, do not have to worry about. If there are no VP's and both armies hold defensible positions in a scenario, there is little incentive to be the first one to attack. It'll turn into trench warfare.

And the VP's are very valuable in programming the AI so that they behave somewhat realistically.