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DeRuyter

Double shot Range

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I know there has been discussions about double shot previously. See locked thread here:

 

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/2123-double-shot-op-or-not/?hl=double+shot

 

However I still think the range of double shot is overstated. From my reading double shot was only used at extremely close range – pistol shot range or less, generously 50 yds. By double shot I mean what we have in game, i.e.; double round shot rather than round behind grape which was used in quarterdeck guns, but also for extremely close action.

From what I have seen in game and experimented with in PVE it seems you can hit with double out to 200+ yds. I just saw a post about using long guns can add 50-100 yds to the range as well.  It certainly seems that loading double is very common in the game at the moment.  I am hopeful the DM 4.0 will take care of the accuracy, but I would think that even if you managed to hit at longer ranges the damage would be minimal due to the small charge used and angle (The RN proscribed a 1/3 charge for double shot - AFAIK).

Anyone have any thoughts on the range of double?

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Muzzle velocity would only have been between 900 and 650 fps, less than that of a carronade. Only in larger sizes would it have a useful penetration, and that only against lighter scantlings than the waterline wales of a Ship of the Line. You couldn't expect a 12pdr to be effective against heavier ships than a light frigate though even at pistol shot range.

Because it would be subsonic, it would lose velocity relatively slowly, so could be useful against upper sides at up to 5-600 yds, if effective against the target's thicker portions close in, and when the ball strikes home.

Accuracy is poor because of high variation in velocity between the two balls, and from shot to shot, and interference in bore. Some of the error in range is because the balls have different velocities (one near the upper and one the lower boundary), but they can also have inconsistent and wild lateral and vertical variations depending on the contact points between muzzle and the two balls. Only at pistol shot or musket shot ranges (25-200yds) could accurate practice be relied on.

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You would typically only double load the 1st broadside too, correct?

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Judging by the powder/shot use of Consitution, and the utter failure of 18pdr armed frigates to penetrate at pistol range over protracted frigate fights against her, I'd guess at rather common in close in fighting. 18pdr ball fired full charge should easily perforate anything.

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You would typically only double load the 1st broadside too, correct?

That's what I thought too, but I'm no expert on such things.

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double shot too accurate specially long range double shot from long guns down wind. Please nerf.

Edited by Chromey

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Basically right now since double shot has decent range then there is very little reason to use ball especially if you're a lighter ship fighting a heavier ship.

 

In short most people will use double shot because there are very little disadvantages.

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Double shot in this game is overpowered.  I like the two responses at the following link.

 

In practice, double-shotted cannon were only used at extreme short range. Quite apart from the question of the ratio of powder charge to shot weight, the two cannonballs would interact with each other in an unpredictable way during firing, making accurate aiming all but impossible.

Royal Navy regulations of Nelson's time prescribed a maximum powder charge (using the new 'cylinder' gunpowder) of one-third the weight of the shot being fired. A single 24-pounder gun would therefore be fired using up to 8 lb of gunpowder. For shorter ranges, smaller charges were used.

In exceptional circumstances a half-weight charge might be used - 12 lb in the case of the 24-pounder. In practice this was rare, because it was felt to be too wasteful of gunpowder. A one-third charge was sufficient to breach the hull of most warships if fired at a range close enough to ensure a hit.

Larger charges were not used, since they risked making the gun recoil uncontrollably and break the cables securing it in place, if not burst its barrel.

This meant that doubling the weight of the shot (by loading two cannonballs) could not be accompanied by doubling the amount of powder used. In fact, Admiralty regulations actually prescribed using less powder when double-shotting a gun. A 32-pounder cannon used 10.6 lb of powder for single-shot and 8 lb for double-shot; a 24-pounder 8 lb for single and 6 lb for double. In other words, 1/8 the combined mass of the two shots instead of 1/3 the mass of one. The reason seems to have been simply that double-shotted guns were normally only to be used at very close range anyway, so a larger charge was unnecessary. Concern for excessive recoil may also have been a factor.

A 32-pounder cannon had an extreme range of 2640 yards (2400 metres); a 24-pounder 1980 yards (1800 metres). Point blank range for both cannons was about 400 yards (365 metres). At 400 metres, only 13% of shots fired would hit within a one metre diameter around the aim point. In practical terms, the range of a double-shotted cannon would be about half those numbers. The first ball to leave the muzzle would travel about 100-150 metres further than the second.




As I understand it double shotting would only be done at point blank range, around 50 yards, as it was very inaccurate. I don't believe extra powder was used as this would be dangerous - barrels burst occasionally through wear so they wouldn't risk it.

With the energy being transferred to both balls you are going to get a muzzle velocity of around 70% of a single ball, but it's not going to transfer evenly so one will probably be going a little faster than the other. With a flight time of almost half as much again as a single ball you have more than double the drop due to gravity. So yes, maybe 100 yards would be effective against a ship of the line, but at that range you aren't going to get another volley in so you might as well wait until you are closer.

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hey devs please nerf double shot range like it says in that article of foghorne. Also add fire effects and different type of sinking. Thanks!!!

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This is how I picture double shot

 

BAJAuqH.jpg

The question then is how should the game depict range?

 

Close range double shot = 0 - 100 yards

Long range double shot = over 100 yards

Single shot close range = long range double shot

 

Why invent carronades if a long gun can act like a carronade with double shot and a long gun with single shot?  Why would a first rate carry carronades if a long gun would be more effective?  The accuracy of double shot out of a smoothbore cannon was very poor.  And everything I researched has carronade double shot with one ball and grape shot not 2 balls.  Wish I could find more information on double shot.

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