Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum

Recommended Posts

The plans says brigantine?

 

Edit: but the newly added second images shows a brig rig, got it.

 

It seems kinda implausible though. It has a lateen on the main mast while being dated 1775, the man at the quarterdeck seems to be holding a steering wheel, which would not be placed there.

The high rising bow sprit was more typical of an earlier era. I'm guessing this is a somewhat cheap model kit.

 

~Brigand

Link to post
Share on other sites

(The sail plan is indeed the type called "brigantine" in common multilingual terminology of this era.)

What makes it especially piratical?

The article about it mentioned about pirates that is all I know. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The plans are not in English, so remember that other nations use similar terms in non-similar meanings.

 

For example the French would call a small warship a Corvette, while the British would call it a Sloop-of-War.  I've also seen German plans that call a vessel a Fregatte (frigate), yet the British would say it is a small galleon.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems kinda implausible though. It has a lateen on the main mast while being dated 1775, the man at the quarterdeck seems to be holding a steering wheel, which would not be placed there.

The high rising bow sprit was more typical of an earlier era. I'm guessing this is a somewhat cheap model kit.

I think a 1775 lanteen yard is plausible for a non-naval vessel, probably from a conservative builder. At this point French ships of the line were switching to gaffs, but only recently.

 

The lanteen yard has some big advantages, such as allowing you to haul the mizzen sail to windward when coming about, and serving as en emergency replacement for a lower

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Until the 14th century, the lateen sail was employed primarily on the Mediterranean Sea, while the Atlantic and Baltic (and Indian Ocean) vessels relied on square sails. The Northern European adoption of the lateen in the Late Middle Ages was a specialized sail that was one of the technological developments in shipbuilding that made ships more maneuverable, thus, in the historian's traditional progression, permitting merchants to sail out of theMediterranean and into the Atlantic Oceancaravels typically mounted three or more lateens. However, the great size of the lateen yardarm makes it difficult and dangerous to handle on larger ships in stormy weather, and with the development of the carrack, the lateen was restricted to the mizzen mast. In the early nineteenth century, the lateen was replaced in European ships by the driver or spanker.

-From wikipedia

 

So, although certainly being phased out by 1775 for the more modern gaff sails, a lateen sail is not out of the realm of possibility for a vessel of this date.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, but that's Wikipedia. By the "early 19th century" the lanteen mizzen sail was long gone. 1775 is the end of the transition period for the yard. The sail disappeared earlier.

Edit: It appeared to be earlier that the brig carried a lanteen yard with a gaff-shaped sail. Brigand is probably right.

 

The proportions of the topsails and t'gallants look odd to me as well, although the cut of sails often shows me how little I know.

Link to post
Share on other sites

http://books.google.com/books?id=g7Jd_o6_s90C&pg=PA19&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

Seamanship in the Age of Sail, if you look on p. 37 you will see that a 1760's rig still had a lateen yard, though the sail itself did not extend forward of the mast.  By 1820, the yard had been replaced by a gaff and boom.  So, in 1775 this was still an entirely possible rig.  As for the top and topgallant sails, they do look a little odd.  However, they're not too far off to be possible.  If you look at the preceding pages, you'll notice that the upper sails slowly transition from more of a trapezoid shape to a rectangle shape throughout the evolution of the ships.  These are general rig changes of course, and riggers often tried different rig and sail shapes with differing levels of success.  For example, the reef in the t'gallant sails did not become standard, but it does crop up occasionally.  Additionally, the bow sprit looks like a fairly steep angle for the period, but maybe it was done so with the hope of avoiding damage in heavy seas or to better support the rest of the rig.  Are there any other sources that might validate this as an actual ship from the era?  Although not 'standard' by our perspective of the era's boats, it doesn't look so far off to not be plausible.

Link to post
Share on other sites
In France in the 1770-1790 years, the bricks are mainly snow. But I have never seen a sail like the plan for the brigs or the snow In France.
 
Three snows years 1760-1780:
 
Note that sometimes the snow are called corvettes, but it is an abuse of language.
 
You can see that the mizzen sail is rigged on a "horn" (I don't know the English terme) and not on an antenna and does not boom.

 

brick_13.jpg

 

brick_14.jpg

 

brick_15.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

My first comments where on the fact that the topic title says brig where the plans say brigantin. By the last quarter of the 18th century, in Northern Europe, the terms brig and brigantine described separate rigs, although the terms where still used somewhat interchangeably. I don't know when the split in terminology appeared in the Mediterranean. The rig as shown would, according to the terminology we use now, be called a brig.

 

Some more comments on these plans in the OP. The lateen (or settee) sail was retained a lot longer in the Mediterranean than in other European waters. It was used up until the early 20th century by fishermen in both Greece and Turkey to supplement their engine. As such, I think it is reasonable to assume that other, larger vessels in the Mediterranean also kept the lateen yard and sail longer than their contemporary northern European neighbours.

 

The rig as shown in the OP has both a top and topgallant set above the lateen sail. I've never seen a rig with a top gallant set over a settee sail, on two masted vessels. This doesn't mean it isn't a possibility, but it does make me suspicious. Given that the dimension of the top gallant are quite generous, it makes me a bit more suspicious. The plans show a hull shape that seems about correct for the time period. The steering wheel is however in an unusual location and the tiller is very short, it looks suspiciously close to a late 19th century setup, when the relieving tackle ropes had been replaced by steel cables, etc. And last, the bowspirt & jib boom are steeved up at a steep angle, which was far more common in the 17th century. Given that the plans look like they belong to a model kit, I'm inclined to think that the image presented to us, may not be completely historical correct.

 

 

It is generally accepted that the gaff sail spread through Europe from Holland. The gaff sail has most likely evolved from the sprit sail, which was in very wide use in the Dutch Republic and is known to have existed as early as 1475. If you move the boom of the sprit sail steadily up, you get a less top-heavy construction which can spread the same amount of sail. Continue doing this and after a while you get a gaff sail. The earlies mention of a boom I have been able to track down is on a painting of the Royal Cork Yacht Club from 1720.

 

The brigantine evolved from the small vessels and not from the ship (more on that later). The bilander has been mentioned in this thread and the rig it set is most likely a predecessor of the brigantine. (the bilander itself is however a type of rig + hull: the bilander had no transom but a round build stern). The for-and-aft rigged two masted traders still set square topsails and commonly also flew a for course. So the brigantine rig is more or less a logical result from the rigs which were around at the time. The boom on the main sail (but not between the masts) was already in reasonable common use (I think, but haven't confirmed yet, that it saw its earliest common use on the Baltic Sea) at around the same time the ships lateen sail was cut in half.

 

However, these early gaff sails were used only on inland and coastal vessels, the ships (three masted) invariably had a lateen set on the mizzen. By the 1750s the lateen sail was cut in halve, but the lateen yard was kept for another 30 or so year. The earliest gaff sails on a ship had no boom, the boom was only introduced quite a lot later.

 

Then we have the snow, which is -contrary to what may seem logical in the 21st century- non-related to the brigantine (or brig). Their history is separate: the snow evolved from the (three-masted) ship. And interesting enough, the snow still sailed with a loose footed gaff sail in the times the brig, which evolved from the brigantine, had become a rig which typically included the use of a boom.

 

The brig is most commonly know to us from its use by the Royal Navy, which strived to standardised all dimensions of their vessels, for as much interoperable parts as possible. To this purpose, they choose to make the main sail of a brigantine a bit smaller and set a top gallant of the main mast. By doing this, the main mast of a brigantine was dimensioned the same as the mizzen of some larger ships. (yet, on a ship the mizzen is smaller than the fore mast and on a brig the main mast is the aft one). As such, the snow and brig slowly grew closer towards each other. The difference between a brig and a snow can be hard to spot, and a lot of mis-naming has happened through the ages, not uncommonly to the annoyance of those who sailed them and knew the difference.

 

 

 

 

Note:

When I write lateen sail, I typically mean either a lateen or the settee sail, when I write lateen yard, I mean the lateen yard with half sail.

Generally accepted evolution of the lateen -> gaff sail (for ships):

11r3syb.gif

From left to right: lateen, settee, lateen yard with half sail, loose footed gaff (boomless gaff), gaff with laced foot.

 

 

~Brigand

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Oooooh yes !

 

That's why the snow is in France Often called Expired small corvette, Because There Are three masts.
 
Also Note That in France, the rawboat of vessel vessels (and Type of Vessel) with livardes are on the Atlantic coast and a lateen sail in the Mediterranean.
 
The French vessel vessels in 1780-have this kind of sail.
 
11sr3s10.gif
 
0210.jpg
 
The brigs (not snow) this kind of sail, and the frigate Hermione (1779-1793) as a same sail.
 
copie_10.gif
 
hermio10.jpg
 
I also find that the top of gallant is really big in the plan. I have a doubt on that dimension.
Edited by Surcouf
Link to post
Share on other sites

Billander is bottom left:

prog1.jpg

 

Good picture, I believe it is from Steel's practice of rigging and seamanship?

 

Apart from showing the bilander with its round stern clearly visible, it also clearly shows the snow still having a loose footed gaff sail, where the brig has a gaff + boom. The other difference between the two is also clearly shown: the snow sets a course (which she can do without complications, because of her snow mast) and the brig sets a staysail instead. The staysail effectively mimics the in-front-of-the-mast part of a lateen sail.

 

The ketch clearly shows that she evolved from a single masted vessel, which gained a mizzen and with it the ability to better control the balance of the rig.

 

The brigs (not snow) this kind of sail, and the frigate Hermione (1779-1793) as a same sail.

copie_10.gif

 

Earlier brig did, in northern waters, have a boom. The boom was added somewhere in the first quarter/middle of the 18th century. I'm not sure when this chance propagated south.

~Brigand

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...