Toxic online behaviour

[Brigand]

There is this curious attitude on the internet, especially pronounced in gaming, that rude and toxic behaviour is just to be accepted, because "there is nothing you can do about it". The problem with this line of reasoning is that it leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy: if everybody acts like there is, indeed, nothing you can do about a-social behaviour on the internet, the toxic behaviour will continue to flourish.

People somehow accept toxic behaviour online, while they would most definitely not accept it in the real world. If the same toxic behaviour that is so prevalent online would be shown in for example an office, that person would be fired and, in quite some cases, handed over to law enforcement. So, why would we accept this behaviour online, if we will not accept it in the real world? What is so different about the toxic behaviour online?

Toxic behaviour is just another incarnation of human behaviour and human behaviour can be changed. Yet, there are several difficulties with changing internet behaviour: (1) you are not talking to these persons in real life and (2) there are a lot of them and there is only one you (me!). So it stands to reason that this one you cannot change the behaviour of all them. So, the battle is lost, right? ... wrong! There are a lot more people on the internet than just you and they are part of the solution. If all those people would stand up against the toxic behaviour, the toxic behaviour would cease to exist. Toxic behaviour on the internet and in gaming communities is human behaviour, so it can be changed, the big question is just where to start?

Well, the people of League of Legends, already started. And so did Game Labs: they made it clear that toxic behaviour is not going to be condoned here, let alone accepted. So, the question of where to start has already been answered, the actual big question is: will you join in? Or will you let others do the fighting?

~Brigand

[Admiral_Of_The_Fleet]

@Brigand .. Totally agree with you 100% +1

Edited February 27, 2015 by Admiral_Of_The_Fleet

[ObiQuiet]

There is this curious attitude on the internet, especially pronounced in gaming, that rude and toxic behaviour is just to be accepted, because "there is nothing you can do about it". 

 

I think there are a few commonly-held ideas that lead to that curious attitude.  I think they're fallacies:

 

1. That if you can't prevent very close to 100% of the cases, there's no point in attempting any solution

2. That offensive language is equivalent to "adult" or "mature" language

3. That the free speech principle always shifts responsibility from the speaker to the hearer

 

I am happy to participate in a group that feels there "is something you can do about it".

[Admaa]

I help where I can and usually help calm people down that get mad but its hard to counter it when the process of reporting is very slow and requires a lot of evidence and on more than one occasion. There's even cases of some known trouble makers slipping through tribunal constantly which is disheartening..

I'm all for helping when possible but I doubt it'll cull the attitude unless everyone is aware that the behaviour is unacceptable, like a popup before every game like on Mount and Blade.

[Balsafer]

People will always act poorly online and in gaming communities its up to the community/mods, and devs to set the limits to how much ass hatery is tolerated and at what point to take the steps to completely remove the bad seed from the community.

[Guest raat]

One striking example of this is how many people dismiss tribunal threads so quickly over "bad language."  The argument is "so he said a bad word, get over it."  Certainly, profanity is no issue, but in 99% of those cases I see it's not the profanity, it's the hateful way they used it.  It's usually very toxic hateful speech and that's what we should worry about.  The behavior, not the profanity.  For whatever reason, people can't see the woods through the tress though.

 

Hate speech, shouting profanities at people with malice, xenophobic remarks, etc. all stem from immaturity and the anonymity of the internet which allows the true nature of a person to come out.

 

Let's not overlook this behavior and say, "I'm mature, I can let it slide.", and think we're the ones taking the high road.  That only allows that behavior to continue.  It is unacceptable and requires a steadfast resolve to confront it at every turn.  Only our conviction to stand up to these people can perhaps shame the perpetrators into becoming a better person, and leaving their hateful attitudes at home instead of in our gaming community.

[Hethwill]

I will never accept foul mouths in whatever place I am in, at the office, at the pub and even the internet.

 

My advice is, given this is internet and you do not see nor know the human on the other side, keep the foul mouth to the people that know you in your real life such as your own family and your friends. We are not friends nor family and I am sure they will appreciate your "I AM RIGHT" attitude especially when presented with such categorical vocabulary.

 

I support any venture in the online universe that keeps their turf clean of mis-educated brats.

[Portsdown]

I am no angel, although I'm better here than on World of Tanks. Sometimes I let my annoyance at an occurrence show though into a chat comment. BUT I'm getting better and I have noticed:

 

The calmer you stay, the better you will play
The more you watch what you say, the better they will play

 

On WoT it has been clear to me for a while that some players know this and deliberately goad the opposition, just like they try and pull people into distracting side chats.

 

As I say, sometimes I fail with my intentions (in which case I try and apologise when I calm down). But the trick is to pay attention to mistakes in the following order:

 

1. Your own - remove them
2. The enemies - exploit them
3. Your allies - advise them

 

That order is important. A lot of the angst in online games comes from people who don't want to accept that they fouled up or the enemy is better than them.

 

There is also a skill to knowing how, or even if, to advise. 'Watch your course people' is better than '[Expletive] get outamyway [specific player]!'. Sometimes its also better to take a general look at what is happening 'We are to close together - watch your course and space out'. Sometimes its clear that a player will be unable to learn a particular point at their current level of skill - so why distract them with advice they can't use?

 

Its also unwise to try and advise when you don't know enough. My least favourite aspect of WoT is the player with 100 games who thinks he is Rommel, it always raises my stress levels when other players who should know better follow foolish instructions or the Rommel throws a strop when they don't. Even better players can get it wrong - be wary of advising or criticising the play of someone in a vehicle or ship when you don't know its strengths and weaknesses.

 

To end my rather rambling and not really exactly on topic post: Officers in the era we are talking about were generally polite to each other. If you weren't someone would take offence, leading to 'Pistols for two and breakfast for one'.

[Grim DeGrim]

Another interesting article regarding "online trolling" and other toxic behavior, with feedback from the perspective of children on how adults are acting.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/trolling-why-nasty-commenters-take-delight-in-wrecking-your-day-1.2976073

[Jack_the_Stripper]

ya it's bad out there on world of tanks to take one example it's bad really bad and it's hard to control because there are just so many players, but if people that do act poorly are punished and i mean a bit harder then now it can change i have no doubt

[Portsdown]

Apparently WoT isn't as bad as some out there. <Looks Dubious> <Looks Frightened>

 

A thought:

We can all help keep things calm, on top of not posting nasties to chat ourselves, by acknowledging when we make a mistake in chat. A lot of the heat in chat is people venting when people do (what they see as) stupid things that render their ability to influence the battle null and void. Conversely, if you don't think you made a mistake, don't get involved in a two way, just stay quiet.

 

If you feel that you HAVE to say something then try and do it in the way least likely to inflame things. I have still to get round to it but I want 'You say that like its a BAD thing!' on a hot-key in WoT for all the times when someone uses Gay, Polish or some other national or racial designation as an insult.

Finally, I get the point about language and the fact that not everybody speaks English it well and it feels like English is spreading the domination of certain countries and you are proud of yours, I really do. BUT if you have found that several players on you team speak your first language and you are giving tactical directions in it please remember that the rest of the team probably doesn't speak it, so don't get all angry when an Englishman like me doesn't heed your instruction or warning in Welsh. Similarly, if you genuinely have a problem with English (in which case, why and how are you reading this) say so at the games start so people can make allowances.

 

----

 

Hmm: Suggestion for future tweak to the game (I have made a similar one to the XVM team over on World of Tanks) - how about adding the ability to advertise and see player language skills in some part of the battle interface? It seems pointless if, say, you have a team entirely made up of Germans for them to be chatting away in English for the whole game or have them spend the set up period finding out who speaks what. Allow them to put on their first and other languages on their profiles and others to see them easily.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Portsdown

[Greig]

Guys, please, do we really have such a problem here it this project?

The game is not that easy to play, plus the price for it is not like FREE TO PLAY of 5 bucks, that is why I believe that our community is a group of people under 25+ with respect to history and passion to age of sail, and that is why it should be unbelievable thing  to see any toxic behavior here in NAVAL ACTION!

 

but, just in case, Toxic behavior IMHO must be punished, if it will be a law from the beginning, there will peace and quiet here)

[mouse of war]

Let the community decide says I!

 

If you think someone is being 'toxic' you block them in chat. The number of blocks that have received is displayed in their interface so that they understand the consequences of their actions. They could possibly even face demotion at a certain stage.

A humble apology here in the forums could possibly result in the admins resetting their blocks.

 

However - I must say that I expect my kids not to be offensive on-line and when it comes to personal attack, not to be so thin-skinned as to take offence in the first place.

You can call me what you want. Water off a duck's back.

The old adage "sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me" may not be entirely true but it's still good life advice.. 

[Balsafer]

Ignore only solves the issue for yourself the problem maker is still causing trouble for all that don't have him on ignore

[Macjimm]

I have a few battles under my keel. But there seems to be a lot of negativity festering in this community.

 

I've never disconnected during a battle but  was rammed once by a bigger vessel.  I said sorry for my poor seamanship but I don't think the apology was accepted. Also I must have been out of position once because a larger friendly was shooting through my sails.  I was fleeing initially when I was outnumbered but from the text messages it appeared that action was inflaming my opponents. 

 

After reading the forums I'm getting the sense that I may be inadvertently offending people so have just confined my self to the PVE theatre.   Not sure if I should just avoid others or stay close but out of everyone's way.  Is kiting acceptable in the battle testing?  Am I creating a bad reputation for myself if I "steal kills"?  When I bought the game  I didn't have any idea of the intense desire to win that motivates many of the players.  There is just so much hate.

 

So respectfully and sincerely I ask for some guidance:

1) is there a reference to some sort of detailed code of conduct?  (Or is Naval-Action-good-sportsmanship considered "common sense" that everyone must be born with?)

2) Will it be possible to play the game in open world moderately? Or is a attitude (or understanding) of  MMO competitiveness required to avoid igniting the anger of many people here?

[Guest raat]

I have a few battles under my keel. But there seems to be a lot of negativity festering in this community.

 

I've never disconnected during a battle but  was rammed once by a bigger vessel.  I said sorry for my poor seamanship but I don't think the apology was accepted. Also I must have been out of position once because a larger friendly was shooting through my sails.  I was fleeing initially when I was outnumbered but from the text messages it appeared that action was inflaming my opponents. 

 

After reading the forums I'm getting the sense that I may be inadvertently offending people so have just confined my self to the PVE theatre.   Not sure if I should just avoid others or stay close but out of everyone's way.  Is kiting acceptable in the battle testing?  Am I creating a bad reputation for myself if I "steal kills"?  When I bought the game  I didn't have any idea of the intense desire to win that motivates many of the players.  There is just so much hate.

 

So respectfully and sincerely I ask for some guidance:

1) is there a reference to some sort of detailed code of conduct?  (Or is Naval-Action-good-sportsmanship considered "common sense" that everyone must be born with?)

2) Will it be possible to play the game in open world moderately? Or is a attitude (or understanding) of  MMO competitiveness required to avoid igniting the anger of many people here?

 

First off, don't confine yourself to PvE.  The way to learn to be a better sailor and not ram, get out of position, and generally be a detriment to the team is to do PvP...a lot.  It only comes with practice and PvE teaches you nothing (except bad habits).

 

To answer your questions, some people are way too easy to fly off the handle at people, but here's what you should know:

 

1) You have complete control of your ship.  If you ram or even get rammed in some cases, it's your fault.  The caveat is if you are in a very unmaneuverable ship like a Santi or something and the other person is in a more maneuverable vessel like a Surprise.  Then it's less the Santi's fault and much more the Surprise's fault for the collision.

 

2) If you are in a smaller ship, it's necessary to give the larger, less maneuverable ships more room to maneuver.  Stay with them, but not right next to them.  And never block their fire.  That hurts your teams potential dps.  If they fire through you, it's your fault.  But most people won't fire through you out of kindness.

 

3) Winning is important to people.  It's rather inconsiderate (imo) to not try or to abandon your team in a TDM scenario like we have in Sea Trials.  However, if you're trying to win, people are fine with losing and will not fault you for it.  So don't worry about that too much.

 

4) Kiting is acceptable if you "Kite to Fight", meaning running only to fight from lee gauge and using your speed to stay out of range.  If you're just running away, you're just wasting people's time.  Time people might have not that much of and they want to spend it playing and testing the game, not chasing you.

 

5) There is no kill stealing.  Kills mean nothing and it's based on total damage done to an enemy ship anyway so there's no way to steal a kill if you wanted to.  Ignore people crying about that.

 

6) I supposed there's no official CoC, but several threads have been created on these issues.  Just peruse the forums and you'll find them.  Essentially, just be courteous to others, play as a team, and have fun.

 

7) For Open World, well, it's a clean slate.  Do what you want.  If you're worried about competitiveness, just find a clan or a group of players that are casual and just want to trade/explore the OW and have fun.  There's room for everyone in this game.

 

TLDR; don't get discouraged by assholes.  Have fun and keep playing PvP.  It's the best way to learn the game and get better.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Raatha

[Grim DeGrim]

So respectfully and sincerely I ask for some guidance:

1) is there a reference to some sort of detailed code of conduct?  (Or is Naval-Action-good-sportsmanship considered "common sense" that everyone must be born with?)

2) Will it be possible to play the game in open world moderately? Or is a attitude (or understanding) of  MMO competitiveness required to avoid igniting the anger of many people here?

 

Hello MacJimm,

 

While one side of me tells me to allow a moderator / Admin to answer your concerns, other side of me says that an answer from a fellow player might be of more value.  Answers in short:

 

1. That you've made this post alone tells me that you are concerned about your conduct, and that you genuinely care.  In my books, that is enough for me.  I'll go out on a limb at this point and say that conduct is more common place:
   • Would you curse out the grocery clerk for ringing in oranges instead of apples?  And continue to do so even after she apologies?
   • Would you decry someone publicly for being of a different nation, skin color, sexuality...and do so in a vulgar manner?
   • Would you go to another neighborhood pretending to be law enforcement?
   • Would you keep a bag of money found on the side of the street that didn't belong to you?
2. Open world play can be anything you wish it.  I've played with hardcore PVP'ers (where we fight other players), and with hardcore PVE'er (complete with role playing, NPCs, missioning, and everything in between).  Anger is just plain wasted for the sake of pixels.

 

Kiting is allowed (but if it is 10v1 in team death match, it is a courtesy to fight to the death, rather than have everyone wait on you being captured...this will be different in open world).  There is no such thing as kill stealing.  Try to sail in such a way that benefits the team...think of fleet mates as yourself...you would not want a fleet mates to block your firing arcs.  But if you must, try and do so quickly and at an opportune time.

 

I've no fears for you.  Your post tells enough that you're perfect for the game.

 

GRIM

Edited March 5, 2015 by Grim DeGrim

[Paxton Brimstone]

Best advice I can give is lead by example. Demonstrate good behavior and sportsmanship and don't applaud or reinforce bad. Or in simpler terms "Don't Feed the Trolls". This isn't a 100% thing and yes we all at times will get frustrated and perhaps slip but the effort by all of us early on helps to set the standard. I'm not a prude or anything close I love a good dirty joke but were all real people on the other side of the data line so try to remember that and ask yourself, would I like it if someone spoke that way towards a family member of mine? We can all have fun and enjoy this game and its a healthy sign that this discussion is already happening, awareness is the first step in overcoming issues usually.

 

Happy sailing and fair winds to you and all your days

Paxton

member of Decatur Armada

[mouse of war]

Ignore only solves the issue for yourself the problem maker is still causing trouble for all that don't have him on ignore

 

Those that don't have the problem maker on ignore can put him on ignore - trouble over, problem solved!

 

The point is that the ignore option becomes in effect a voting system that allows the community to make the decision. Rules as to what can and can not be said are not handed down from on high by some shadowy PC committee nor do admins have to spend their time on it.

 

Sufficient votes/blocks will trigger any action necessary and the offender will always be aware of the number of votes/blocks against him and aware of the consequences of his actions, his increasing gagging in the game and possible automatic sanctions in the form of demotion or fine of in-game money at a certain level of votes/blocks trigger point.

 

It's a perfect justice system:

* Community based.

* Feedback to the offender.

* Low maintenance.

* And with a possible way back for those prepared to mend their ways.

Edited March 5, 2015 by mouse of war

[Windy]

CoC are here...

 

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/2346-forum-and-sea-trials-rules/

[mouse of war]

CoC are here...

 

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/2346-forum-and-sea-trials-rules/

 

Yes, but this debate is really about in-game chat, not forum posts.

Of course the same guidelines should prevail but the question is what can practically be done if they are not followed.

[BungeeLemming]

 

Forum and Sea Trials Rules

This means that the Link he posted applies to both the fourum and ingame behavior.

It "should" not prevail. It prevails already.

 

 

Sea trials is the test you all happily enjoy.

But not everyone reads the ruleset they agreed on..

[mouse of war]

This means that the Link he posted applies to both the fourum and ingame behavior.

It "should" not prevail. It prevails already.

 

 

Sea trials is the test you all happily enjoy.

But not everyone reads the ruleset they agreed on..

 

Yes, and if we really want to split hairs then:

1. 'Should' does not necessarily exclude 'does'.

2. And prevail is an ambiguous relative term so that it could be argued that because the rules are not followed 100% then they don't prevail or that they prevail only if the level of compliance has risen above some individually and possibly arbitrary level that that individual has consciously or sub-consciously set to define what 'prevail' means.

 

(I'm having a slow day - you can tell can't you?)

[BungeeLemming]

Well as I am not a native speaker I only just researched "prevail" and yes you are right.

It 'should' prevail.

 

The point I was trying to make is that we already have a ruleset to wich everyone ultimately agreed when they joined the alpha test.

Not knowing the rules does not excuse for bad behavior.

 

If everyone would follow the rules we would be fine.

[SYN_Bloody-Bandy]

...

I am happy to participate in a group that feels there "is something you can do about it".

 

I am willing to participate. 

 

As to other posts saying it is up to moderators and devs to police this I completely disagree.  Every player has the choice to post/chat something like this when faced with toxic behaviour, "Your language and/or attitude is not supportive of our community and will not be tolerated". 

 

Sure, it will likely be fluffed off by the toxic individual with more choice language, so take screenshots and thank him for putting his best face forward when you post them over here and remind him of 'rules of NA engagement'.  It usually doesn't take much to stop someone from being a repeat spewer.

 

BTW, we also must realize that people have bad days and should be given the chance to make amends; I will not throw stones from my glass house...  Repeat behaviour is what needs to be stopped in its tracks and can only be accomplished with a community effort.

Edited March 5, 2015 by SYN_Bloody-Bandy