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American SOL's what might we see?


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1815 is about when America began it's long path to dominance in the technology of death and destruction - culminating with the Nuclear Aircraft Carrier and Nuclear Attack Submarine!

 

The USS Ohio and USS North Carolina were just small steps along that arc!

My, what whiggish history. As I recall, the US barely even had a navy in 1880.

 

 

Well, it is certainly clear that some here will convolute 1820 any way can to try to keep out "superior American technology" at all costs. Thanks for admitting that it is because it is superior is the reason you don't want it in game.

It's superior to Napoleonic vessels. I don't want superior European technology in the game either.

 

If Ohio was a British ship you wouldn't want it included.

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My, what whiggish history. As I recall, the US barely even had a navy in 1880.

 

I'll have to bow to your recall of 1880 - since I was not even a glint in my Great Grand Daddies eye then!

 

But US invention in warfare has sparked many of the leaps warfare has made - up to and including "the bomb" - don't even try to negate the US superiority in warfare invention - it's one thing we are REALLY good at :wacko:

 

The Columbiad was a large caliber, smoothbore, muzzle-loading cannon able to fire heavy projectiles at both high and low trajectories. This feature enabled the columbiad to fire solid shot or shell to long ranges, making it an excellent seacoast defense weapon for its day.[1] :61,63 Invented by Colonel George Bomford, United States Army, in 1811, columbiads were used by the United States coastal artillery from the War of 1812 until the early years of the 20th Century. Very few columbiads were used outside of the U.S. Army; nevertheless, the columbiad is considered by some as the inspiration for the later shell-only cannons developed by Frenchman Henri-Joseph Paixhans some 30 years later.

 

Edited by ampaholic
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Let's say we put aside the 'hard' time-frame of the game, the unrivalled technological advancements compared to what we currently have and the fact it never seen notable service until it was refit about 20 years after anything else it will be fighting against... On what grounds can we justify adding this ship to the game? It's American, made of wood and sailed on water...?

If we were struggling for suggestions it might have gotten a look in but it barley meets the criteria on so many levels I don't see why it should even make it into the equation... and I don't even mind the way it looks..

 

I understand your point of view that only ships that were at Trafalgar should be modeled and in the game - I just disagree with it :)

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I understand your point of view that only ships that were at Trafalgar should be modeled and in the game - I just disagree with it :)

 

Haha, :P ... I'm the last person you could accuse of that. I voted Amsterdam in the ship poll and put forward HMS Endeavour as a ship suggestion, a far worthier candidate than any US built SOL.

 

Posts such as that, flippant though they might be, will only undermine what little substance your argument might have.

Edited by SueMyChin
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Haha, :P ... I'm the last person you could accuse of that. I voted Amsterdam in the ship poll and put forward HMS Endeavour as a ship suggestion, a far worthier candidate than any US built SOL.

 

Posts such as that, flippant though they might be, will only undermine what little substance your argument might have.

 

What do a Dutch ship that couldn't make it 200 miles and Captain Cook's "10 gun Bark" have to do with the topic of this thread American Ships of the Line - absolutely nothing at all.

 

Why would either even potentially be a choice for inclusion in the game - just personal preferences - you have yours and I have mine.

 

No need to explain beyond that.

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What do a Dutch ship that couldn't make it 200 miles and Captain Cook's "10 gun Bark" have to do with the topic of this thread American Ships of the Line - absolutely nothing at all..

 

When you wrongfully accuse someone of something...

 

I understand your point of view that only ships that were at Trafalgar should be modeled and in the game

 

...expect them to refute it.

 

Why would either even potentially be a choice for inclusion in the game - just personal preferences - you have yours and I have mine.

 

That you can't comprehend why one of the most famous sail ships of the period in which the game is set, a ship which helped shape world history and has captured the imagination of millions of people (basically everything the Ohio isn't) might go some way to explaining why we don't all share your personal preference.

 

Something you'll do well to see Ohio added on the back of alone.

I'm done here, thread's going nowhere.

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To answer the OP question - I don't expect we will ever see a US SOL in the game - they were too over powered for the existing SOL and would destroy them too easy, upsetting the apple cart.

 

my $.02

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I don't see why you cannot have a US ship of the line. For instance you could have USS America of 1780. Granted she was handed over to the French at the end of her maiden voyage but she is technically an American built 74.

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I have no issue with having US line ships in game. However, if they are using technology that gives them a massive advantage in game over the other nations, I think the technology in question should be made less effective or removed all together and replaced. If a US line ship can be agreed upon by both supporters and developers, the supporters will eventually have to choose between realism and a balanced game.

 

That said... if I am in a Lynx and my opponent is in a privateer, I expect to lose. Same ship type, but one outweighs the other. Adding a single, very expensive US line ship to the game that can 1 on 1 defeat any other line ship (on paper) may just add a little bit of Tabasco to the end game salad...

 

On the other hand... The US navy would eventually get flooded with these powerful line ships making it difficult for other nations to win a large engagement. Admiral's and Captain's skill only goes so far. Sometimes the odds of victory are just too minuscule.

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The USS Ohio built in 1817 - 1820 should qualify - it carried 104 guns!

 

1280px-Ohio-ship-of-the-line-Currier-Ive

 

This thing is so ugly that i would not sail it even if i got it for free from the Americans as a gift :P j/k

There are so many better and prettyer 1st rates out there ( British,French,Spanish,Sweden,Denmark and Dutch ofc).

I m really not so found of making more American ships atm maybe only Rattlesnake but for the rest for no its NO from me.

And  another thing to point out that America is the youngest nation here so in my point of view its not fair to the other nations that dont have not one ship in game and they where sailing the high seas before Americans knew what is boat used for.

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I don't see why you cannot have a US ship of the line. For instance you could have USS America of 1780. Granted she was handed over to the French at the end of her maiden voyage but she is technically an American built 74.

 

Game Labs could… but should they?

USS America was at best unremarkable but probably disappointing. Her broadside was considerable lighter than other vessels of her time. She only saw service for very few years since she was built from green timber and started to root right away.

 

Why should they invest time in modelling this ship if they could instead model a ship of the Téméraire class?

Those ships are way stronger than America, saw a lot of combat and I dare say shaped our romantic perception of naval combat in the Napoleonic wars as the most build SoL.

I’m also pretty sure that it is probably easier to find plans of a Téméraire class ship and select a ships with an at least decent career.

 

Well we currently have 74 anyway... we lack 80, 90 and 98 guns.

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I was making the remark for American players who wish to sail American ships of the line. That is what I understood this thread to be about, not about them being able to sail French warships. I am well aware of the service record and the fact that it was a pretty unremarkable ship, however it was one of the few American ships of the line that I could find within the time frame. Lets not use this thread to promote other ships due to their Napoleonic wars status, lets just to stay on topic about America and the prospect of them having ships of the line that they built.

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Game Labs only has so much manpower, time and money available.

Choices have to be made what ships get into the game and which don’t.

If the only argument in favor of inclusion is the nationality of a vessel than I simply think that there is actually no reason to include it.

 

As Mirones mentioned: No plans provided thus far which is a show stopper anyway.

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another big problem is since some US sols that where so alte build never finished or used in combat have no records about her performance wich means that have to gues around on turning acceleration and so on another thing is since they didnt needed them preserving the plans where not needed since they are obsolete by the time of early steam/sail hybrids showed up.

kinda sad to see that our throw-away-society allready existed back then.

 

you should focus on finding plans for the Frigates and Shooners of the US since they will be most used. wasting all the work time on a large SoL that might not be build in large numbers  to justify it it because the 74's are the true Kings of the SoL's in terms of performance and cost.

 

specially the topsail shooners with 20guns will be pain in the ass on the open world compared to a slow slugish 140gun pensy that get blockaded in port 24/7 anyway.

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I'm well aware of the limited resources and as a personal preference I really don't particularly concern myself with the American vessels as I'm a Royal Navy Captain however I was merely offering alternatives to the debate. I do believe though that with the frigates/schooners/sloops et cetera that the US Navy shall have a plethora to choose from at the final release.

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As far as ships-of-the-line I'd like to see Independence both razeed and non razeed, USS North Carolina 1820 (Sister ship of the Ohio, I'm not totally sure but I believe she had more 42lbers) (Also, if searching for Ohio/NC plans search for "Delaware class ship of the line")

 

They are all within the time frame in a game with an established precedence of releasing ships that were never used in battle. Frankly, the reasons given as to why not have these ships be available in-game ranges from not at all objective to totally arbitrary, which is amusing, but not surprising, but I do believe people should be more honest and simply admit that these American ships, which were typically better armed, better built in comparison to their contemporaries are a thorn on the sides of the established notion of 'British naval supremacy', which is very much true in the grand scale, but fails to hold up in a smaller skirmish environment, in a world where ships like the Constitution, Constellation and Delaware Class ship-of-the-line exists.

 

If arguments were to be made along those lines then perhaps, as a community, the discussion can move forward.

 

At any rate, before ship of the lines, I'd like to first see the other smaller vessels of the United States like the USS United States heavy frigate (42lbers) and the USS Constellation (A smaller, lighter, faster Constitution with similar armaments of 24s and 32lbers), which were of course the bread and butter of the United States Navy.

Edited by LapuLapuStoleMyBoat
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For instance you could have USS America of 1780. Granted she was handed over to the French at the end of her maiden voyage but she is technically an American built 74.

That's a good idea.

We should also have the French-built USS South Carolina, which carried 36 pounders. A proto-super frigate!

 

Edit: I think I misremembered the name of the latter ship. I have only seen her mentioned in one source. Maybe she was a privateer or something.

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That's a good idea.

We should also have the French-built USS South Carolina, which carried 36 pounders. A proto-super frigate!

 

Edit: I think I misremembered the name of the latter ship. I have only seen her mentioned in one source. Maybe she was a privateer or something.

South Carolina was the French designed and dutch built l'Indien.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indien_(1778)

 

Interesting ship, hybrid between a 74 and a frigate, allegedly the inspiration for the United States class. Had a brief career in the South Carolina Navy before being run down and captured by a trio of smaller British frigates.

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My personal opinion is that the inclusion of an American SoL is really dependent on how they run factions in the open world portion of the game.  Personally I am just hoping that they let me use whatever ship in the game that I want to sail, regardless of faction.  This allows for the devs to focus on just bringing us the best and most beautiful ships rather than be forced to churn out a complete line for each and every nation represented.   I mean if you think about it, if they just let us sail what we want, then they can pretty much add all factions, minor or major to the game.  You could play the big three, Britain, France or Spain of course or chose to be Portuguese, Dutch, Danish, Swedish, Russian, American or whatever, whomever they want to add without adding a full line up of ship for each and every nation.  However if they restrict ships by nation, then they have to limit the number factions fairly significantly because they would need 10-15 ships for each faction.

 

Anyway, back to why this is relevant to American SoLs.  Basically if they they allow us to sail what we want, there is no real reason or need for American SoLs which mostly don't exist or where never used in combat.  You can be an American and use an Ocean, Victory or Santisima instead.   

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South Carolina was the French designed and dutch built l'Indien.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indien_(1778)

 

Interesting ship, hybrid between a 74 and a frigate, allegedly the inspiration for the United States class. Had a brief career in the South Carolina Navy before being run down and captured by a trio of smaller British frigates.

 

She is still not an American SoL which is what the OP is looking for.  Basically she would be an slightly up-gunned Constitution with less speed and maybe less agility while retaining similar durability.  Not saying she wouldn't be a good add, but she isn't a SoL.

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The USAs main power was in her Frigates, the US navy new they couldent win a slug fest with a naval power like British, they built small fast vessals for hit and run tactics, obv theres a few acceptions to this rule but if anything you could hope to see the USS America in game flying the Red White and Blue, stuff like the Pennsylvania just isent in the timeline.

 

Also don't forget, I don't think you will see any SOL outside large fleet battles. They will probibly be like Titans in Eve, Expensive as all hell.

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The USAs main power was in her Frigates, the US navy new they couldent win a slug fest with a naval power like British, they built small fast vessals for hit and run tactics, obv theres a few acceptions to this rule but if anything you could hope to see the USS America in game flying the Red White and Blue, stuff like the Pennsylvania just isent in the timeline.

 

Also don't forget, I don't think you will see any SOL outside large fleet battles. They will probibly be like Titans in Eve, Expensive as all hell.

 

I am really hoping this is the is the case.  1st and 2nd rates should definitely require the resources of entire player societies and be costly enough that these societies think twice before committing them to battle. 3rd rates maybe, just maybe make somewhat affordable for small societies and perhaps solo players, kind of like the investment into something like a Marauder would involve in EVE.  The meat and potatoes of the game should be the small frigates and sloops-of-war comparable in cost and resources to Cruisers and Battlecruisers in EVE. 

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I'd be all about adding earlier -not supahcool later- Spanish ships. Fat and short galleons, designed for trade, proved in battle, reigning the seas for a century.

 

Call me romantic, but I'd rather be the underpowered underdog by stretching "fairness" at the lowest point than at the high hard limit.

 

You can have all the late 'Murican ships you want ;)

Edited by Iñigo Montoya
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