Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum

American SOL's what might we see?


Joe

Recommended Posts

Let's not turn this into WoT, okay?

 

The reals tanks/ships that fought pushed to the side in favour of paper projects and out of period prototypes that dominate because they are modeled without any of the problems the real thing had/would have had or are simply moderner and more advanced.

 

I don't want these ships anymore than I want their equally fast and powerful contemporaries like the British Canopus class or the French Suffren's, or the giant 60 gun French frigates armed with 30 livre (33lb) long cannon maindecks that would obsolete and outclass Constitution as the top frigate. Ships that didn't fight and don't fit in with NA's period have no place ingame.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's not turn this into WoT, okay?

 

The reals tanks/ships that fought pushed to the side in favour of paper projects and out of period prototypes that dominate because they are modeled without any of the problems the real thing had/would have had or are simply moderner and more advanced.

 

I don't want these ships anymore than I want their equally fast and powerful contemporaries like the British Canopus class or the French Suffren's, or the giant 60 gun French frigates armed with 30 livre (33lb) long cannon maindecks that would obsolete and outclass Constitution as the top frigate. Ships that didn't fight and don't fit in with NA's period have no place ingame.

 

The Ohio and North Carolina were most certainly REAL ships from the CORRECT time period - Your denial notwithstanding, they were built and floated on or before the end of 1820 and were viable fighting WOODEN SAILING ships before the age of steel and steam as the dev's have stated the "final" cutoff.

 

You need to get over your plans to suppress the "upstart Americans" and to keep them from having good weapons systems and parity in game. WE ARE COMING FOR YOU WHETHER IT'S IN A SOL OR A ROW BOAT - WE PLAN TO DEFEAT YOUR VILLAINOUS PLANS! - Thou gorbellied beetle-headed lout! (created with the NA approved insult generator http://wiredstar.com/nainsults/)

 

To even bring up the 1899 Canopus class British ships or the even more ridiculous 1927 French Suffren class ships is a sad window into your desperateness.

 

(any and all percieved insults and animosity are made with respect - are tongue in cheek and are intended only for the amusement of readers)

Edited by ampaholic
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Setting aside the specific arguments for/against USS Ohio what Alex said bears remembering - let's not go down the WOT road of more and more "paper" tigers, etc. Plenty to choose from without artificially throwing something in for "balance", or because it's "kewl"!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1899 and 1927?

 

Canopus class is from 1821 (and ordered in 1815), they are a match for anything the Americans built short of the Pennsylvania and only one year out of official period. Suffren was ordered in 1824 and commisioned 1829. Surveillante-class frigates in service from 1825 onwards, how about we build that and make the Constitution the ship that saw combat and had a huge impact but gets overlooked ingame because there's a bigger, more powerful version? Or what about HMS St.Laurence? Same thing as the American SoLs, built before them (well, before the American's figured out how to make a SoL without crippling design flaws anyway :D).

 

But none of these ships saw combat, why would we want them replacing the real ships that fought? Because that's what they will do, they are simply later and more advanced designs.

 

The US was too late to the party with SoLs, get over it  :P

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Setting aside the specific arguments for/against USS Ohio what Alex said bears remembering - let's not go down the WOT road of more and more "paper" tigers, etc. Plenty to choose from without artificially throwing something in for "balance", or because it's "kewl"!

This.

 

I want to fight with Temeraires and Bellonas, Tonnants and Neptunes, the Santisima and the Victory. Leda, Lively, Hebe, United States, Constellation class frigates, Cruizer and Cherokee class Brig-Sloops, corvettes like the Revenant, the Sloops-of-War Hornet and Wasp. Chesapeake and Leopard. Ships that fought in legendary battles and minor skirmishes, ships you could expect to find in on the open sea and in battle.

 

Not ships that never fired a gun in anger but are simply superior because they were built later.

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I want to fight with Temeraires and Bellonas, Tonnants and Neptunes, the Santisima and the Victory. Leda, Lively, Hebe, United States, Constellation class frigates, Cruizer and Cherokee class Brig-Sloops, corvettes like the Revenant, the Sloops-of-War Hornet and Wasp. Chesapeake and Leopard. Ships that fought in legendary battles and minor skirmishes, ships you could expect to find in on the open sea and in battle.

 

Same here.  Hopefully all those ships will some day be in game, and sooner than "paper" ships.

 

A way to offset "paper" ships are cost and maybe having to develop the plans (more cost, exploration, etc), make them so much more expensive than the "top" ship in their class (like 10x) that they probably aren't worth it but perhaps if someone has that kind of money and wants to spend it on one ship that might easily be sank, that is their prerogative.  I imagine that this would make them extremely rare, but then maybe this would mean it isn't worth the time of the devs, and is a bad idea.

Edited by Prater
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Same here.  Hopefully all those ships will some day be in game, and sooner than "paper" ships.

 

A way to offset "paper" ships are cost and maybe having to develop the plans (more cost, exploration, etc), make them so much more expensive than the "top" ship in their class (like 10x) that they probably aren't worth it but perhaps if someone has that kind of money and wants to spend it on one ship that might easily be sank, that is their prerogative.  I imagine that this would make them extremely rare, but then maybe this would mean it isn't worth the time of the devs, and is a bad idea.

Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it?

 

Building a ship is not easy but I'm told it pales in comparison to actually getting that model sailing ingame, so every ship really needs to be used enough to be worth the effort.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1899 and 1927?

 

Canopus class is from 1821 (and ordered in 1815), they are a match for anything the Americans built short of the Pennsylvania and only one year out of official period. Suffren was ordered in 1824 and commisioned 1829. Surveillante-class frigates in service from 1825 onwards, how about we build that and make the Constitution the ship that saw combat and had a huge impact but gets overlooked ingame because there's a bigger, more powerful version? Or what about HMS St.Laurence? Same thing as the American SoLs, built before them (well, before the American's figured out how to make a SoL without crippling design flaws anyway :D).

 

But none of these ships saw combat, why would we want them replacing the real ships that fought? Because that's what they will do, they are simply later and more advanced designs.

 

The US was too late to the party with SoLs, get over it  :P

 

Oh, you mean the Formidable class - launched AFTER 1820. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canopus-class_ship_of_the_line - you are right they shouldn't be included being after 1820 as was the French Suffren.

 

I still don't know why you bring up ships launched AFTER the cutoff (1820) as an argument why not to include some built BEFORE the cutoff - That's like me bringing up the Bismark as a reason not to include the Victory ----- WTF?

 

I didn't invent the cutoff - and I didn't launch the Ohio and North Carolina just to spite you - give it a break.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only difference between the Canopus class (yes, it is the Canopus class, in contemporary parlance its known as the "repeat Canopus class") and Ohio/North Carolina is that the first Canopus class ship (HMS Ganges) was launched one year after the deadline, while Ohio was launched on the deadline and North Carolina one year before. And I don't want any of them, because they are all ships of a later period that never saw combat.

 

Nor do I want HMS Java, the post war 60 gun 24 pdr frigate built in 1815 (despite being well within the allowed period and giving the Royal Navy something to kill Constitution with), because again, later built ship that didn't see combat.

 

Personally, think the 1820 cut-off isn't great because it allows all sorts of later ships that never fired a gun in anger, my preference would be only ship built before the end of the War of 1812 (exceptions made for ships that are part of an earlier class like Trincomalee, plus special exception for Mercury because it fits in with older Brig-Sloops and took part in a famous battle).

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

True, but so was the Mercury Brig then, launched May 7, 1820 :D

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_brig_Mercury

 

P.s.  My thoughts are that maybe someday long down the road an American SOL could be added to the game, but currently we have so many other ships that should be added first.  We area also getting another 1st rate, and I'd rather see us get more 74s than add in an American sol to that list so that we have 4 1st rates but only 1 third rate.  Aren't most people advocating that 1st rates should be rare?  So why is it the class with the most numerous of ships apart from the unrated vessels?

 

I agree about the SOLs, especially the 1st rates.  There seems to be alot of focus on these ships when I am hoping they should be about as rare in the open world as Titans are in EVE Online.  1st and even 2nd rate SOLs should require the resources of large player societies to build, operate and maintain and be such a massive investment that there is genuinely a significant fear of losing them in any sort of combat.  3rd rates should probably be the maximum size ship that is fairly common, kind of at the level of a Marauder or maybe even a Battleship in Eve Online, costly but somewhat recoverable.   This is why I questioned the Devs choosing the Ocean Class as the Wildcard because while it is beautiful 1st rate, we already have two beautiful 1st rates and not near enough 3rd, 4th, 5th and even unrated ships in the game.  We need tons and tons and tons of these type of vessels for open world, NOT 1st rates or at least I hope that ends up the case.

 

 

I have no issue with any rate of ships being in game. I only hope that the cost of building and maintaining these larger vessels are reflected in game. This for of checks and balance's assures somewhat that everyone doesn't just build all first rates and a victory is parked in every port. Not to mention raw resources required to build these ships is another factor. the consti required around 60 acres of fully grown oak and pine all one to construct her. The ability to find and harvest that much prime timber for a ship is no small task especially using 17th century tech (ant no chain saws or skid loaders back then).

 

 

Yeah I am hoping that anything bigger than a 3rd rate will require the resources of entire player societies to actually build, operate and maintain and I think even 3rd rates should be extremely resource intensive being the largest ship that most smaller societies commonly uses and then only for big fleet or territory battles.   For warships, our meat and potatoes so to speak should be 5th and 6th rate Frigates with some usage of 4th rate Frigates and SoLs.  Obviously unrated ships should be widely in use as well and perhaps be the most common used ships in the game for general commerce, privateering, raiding and general PvP usage.  

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I didn't invent the cutoff - and I didn't launch the Ohio and North Carolina just to spite you - give it a break.

Oh come off it. You and me both know the cuttoff is just some handwaving the devs grabbed at random because it's a round number. You're so desperate to sail around with superior American technology that you would be begging for exemptions for American SoLs if the cutoff was 1815.

 

 

 

True, but so was the Mercury Brig then, launched May 7, 1820 :D

And Lynx was launched in 2001! What a scandal! See how the devs have bent over backwards for the American consumer base! :P

 

Because, of course, Lynx would look like a normal vessel in 1812. As would Mercury.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

ohio is actualy more better since its close to Victory performance wise. independence would be a formidable choise to get ingame.

but anything later is to much. both have more than enough fire power with 32pounders on all decks.

i still like to see the frigates and privateers first.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh come off it. You and me both know the cuttoff is just some handwaving the devs grabbed at random because it's a round number. You're so desperate to sail around with superior American technology that you would be begging for exemptions for American SoLs if the cutoff was 1815.

 

 

Well, it is certainly clear that some here will convolute 1820 any way can to try to keep out "superior American technology" at all costs. Thanks for admitting that it is because it is superior is the reason you don't want it in game.

 

1815 is about when America began it's long path to dominance in the technology of death and destruction - culminating with the Nuclear Aircraft Carrier and Nuclear Attack Submarine!

 

The USS Ohio and USS North Carolina were just small steps along that arc!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's say we put aside the 'hard' time-frame of the game, the unrivalled technological advancements compared to what we currently have and the fact it never seen notable service until it was refit about 20 years after anything else it will be fighting against... On what grounds can we justify adding this ship to the game? It's American, made of wood and sailed on water...?

If we were struggling for suggestions it might have gotten a look in but it barley meets the criteria on so many levels I don't see why it should even make it into the equation... and I don't even mind the way it looks..

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

fun fact we disscussed american sols long time ago and know that the american playerbase get butthurt if they dont get they end of timeline super firsty's just as expected

 

 

You could say they missed the boat...

 

 

Or you might not bother.

 

 

On what grounds can we justify adding this ship to the game? It's American, made of wood and sailed on water...?

 

 

 

 

 

What overly stereotypical and over generalized comments we have here.  This thread is once again going down the drain and getting to the point it was before when it was locked....

 

 

Have I ever advocated for an American SOL?  Point it out, otherwise stop with the generalizations.  I am an American, so stop generalizing us.

Edited by Prater
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Heh

 

What overly stereotypical and over generalized comments we have here.  This thread is once again going down the drain and getting to the point it was before when it was locked....

 

Have I ever advocated for an American SOL?  Point it out, otherwise stop with the generalizations.  I am an American, so stop generalizing us.

 

 

Personally, I have no idea who in this thread is American or otherwise and don't really care. I haven't pointed any of my comments at anyone, merely noted that the American Nation did not build and fight in SOL until after the practical time frame of Naval Action, thus "missed the boat". How that is generalising, I have no idea..

 

I would however note that the name of the thread is American SOL, and throughout the topic has largely focused on adding a SOL simply because it's American and pretty much nothing else.

So yeh, I'm not sure what you're getting at calling me out for those comments  :huh:  ...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey if I am to sail in a SOL in game - I really don't give a rat's rump if it was built in the US, England, India, France, Holland, Russia or even Spain. What I care about is the game be fun to play and I really REALLY fail to see how modeling the Ohio and including it in the game (as an alternative to the Santi or Victory) would make the game LESS fun for the nay-sayers - Please enlighten me?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, it is certainly clear that some here will convolute 1820 any way can to try to keep out "superior American technology" at all costs. Thanks for admitting that it is because it is superior is the reason you don't want it in game.

 

Its not "superior American technology" just later technology. You know, the same way a F8F Bearcat or Sea Fury designed and put into service at the tail end of WW2 is "superior" to A6M Zeros and Hurricanes designed and built in the mid-30s. What happens if you put those aircraft into a game where everyone can fly what they want? Well, of course the later aircraft get picked and everything else is shoved in the background.

 

Also, re point on "American superiority"  :P

 

I'll see your USS Ohio and raise you HMS St Laurence. Completed during the War of 1812 (unlike the ships you are talking about), same flush decked layout as the (later) American ships, same armament (just with long 24s swapped for the American short 32s on the middle deck), didn't sit too low in the water to use its main battery (not like certain rivals I could mention  :lol:).

 

yr469dA.jpg

 

Legitimately has a better claim to be in game than the American SoLs, matches the ones built after it and surpasses the ones built alongside, yet I'm not asking for it because like the American SoLs its a sinfully ugly later built monster that would eclipse and replace all the ships that really fought in battles during NA's period.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only difference between the Canopus class (yes, it is the Canopus class, in contemporary parlance its known as the "repeat Canopus class") and Ohio/North Carolina is that the first Canopus class ship (HMS Ganges) was launched one year after the deadline, while Ohio was launched on the deadline and North Carolina one year before. And I don't want any of them, because they are all ships of a later period that never saw combat.

 

Tonnant class is what ship the HMS Ganges is based on except she is more uglyier because you know past 1815

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see it like this: First and foremost the game needs basically one ship of every type or size in order to provide gab free progression.

Then I think the next goal should be to incorporate some alternatives for heavily used ship types or sizes with varying focuses in order to balance things out and give players the ability to customize for their needs or some really off the road choices.

Ultimately I believe you can neither balance according history nor economy. I don’t see this working out in a competitive multiplayer environment.

Currently it seems Game Labs wants some hybrid balance between historical and game. I don’t think it will work out in the end but I digress.

 

Considering this the game currently lacks a 2nd rate. So of course a 90 to 98 gun SoL of the USA is viable suggestion as long as it lies within the timeframe of the game.

 

Here I see a problem according to this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ships_of_the_line_of_the_United_States_Navy

 

The United States Navy was terrible late to the party of SoLs.

Basically only USS Independence is within the timeframe and if Game Labs wants to stay close to historical balancing then… well she apparently carried 90x 32 pounders.

That’s a 1440 pound broadside, compare that to the 898 pound broadside of a British 2nd rate of the Duke class and becomes clear that those 50 years in arms race between those ships just don’t lend themselves to a historical balancing method for the game.

If they “game balance” USS Independence then okay but historical it is just out of timeframe really.

 

All in all I think there are ships that lend themselves better for the game as 2nd rates without the need to bend over that much like Christian VII, Barfleur class, Duke class, Bucentaure class or Tonnant class.

Barfleur seems a cheap choice for example as it was build as 90 gun ship and later modified to carry 98 guns, so with some adjustments the same model could be used twice and leave only a 80 gun ship to be desired.

 

After all what “real” nation a ship belonged to doesn’t really matter. Having a full complement of all ship types and sizes of each nation is a nice wish but is also very expensive to realize and very unlikely to happen therefore.

It is far more economical to achieve similar results with different colour schemes for far less models.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...