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(Future) Defensive Upgrade: Chains to Ships For Barrier


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Eventually, there will be something akin to port battles in OW as we fight for dominance over ports. As an option to defenders, provided I have enough Intel on where enemy fleet will come from, I'd like to have the option of chains linking ships as a means of creating a defensive position.

Now, I've had a little trouble referencing it. But many of you will be familiar with Nelson's greatest victory at the Nile (note, not Trafalgar):

"Although the ships were chained together, Nelson believed the chain between the last ship in the line and the shore was sunk deep enough to let a vessel pass."

As seen here, it was a tactic used... Perhaps it can be implemented in game?

AS A SUGGESTION... Future feature, after OW and other high ranking priorities...

Edited by Grim DeGrim
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It is a good suggestion and certainly one should look into, but only once one fully knows how to employ unitys engine and has everything set up to properly focus on getting it to work.

 

I believe to have the unit collision handled in a reasonable manner will take a lot of effort and that the game is not there yet, but I sure would be glad to see it around v2.x!

Edited by Kngsbrg
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Chains where used to 'anchor' ships in crowded harbours. The chains where laid out in a grid and a ship could be anchored in one of the 'rectangles' by tying it to the chains on the bow and stern. I don't think these chains would be really useful for any tactical defence purpose, as they tie up you own ships.

 

Chains across harbour entrances where not all that uncommon though, I don't see why they would not be implemented.

 

Edit: found an illustration:

 

sea05.jpg

 

Cheers,

Brigand

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I like the idea.

But before before being a defensive way, i would say the chain was set up to prevent unauthorized boats from secretly entering or exiting.

 

La Rochelle Harbour used to be closed with a chain.

The harbour entrance is today still guarded by its 2 towers.

La Tour de la Chaîne ( tower of the chain : left of the photo) and la Tour Saint-Nicolas. In front of the harbour entrance.

498152591024-768-la-rochelle-tours-du-vi

 

Inside the harbour, view on the 2 towers . Circa 1830

http://www.ameriquefrancaise.org/fr/article-582/La_Rochelle_et_l%E2%80%99Am%C3%A9rique_fran%C3%A7aise.html#.VOxmty4YIZw

5635_la_rochelle_11.jpg

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Brigand has it right. It is more for a functional purpose than for a tactical warfare situation. Stakes and rope for this purpose been used forever.

 

Has been used for blockade as well, basically anchor ships and keep them linked so they do not go adrift. But I doubt the usefulness of this last part in game. How many players would join such a venture just to sit there chained to each other ?

 

Cool implementation for safe harbour security though, like Dagann posts.

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Excellent feedback. I'll have to do more research on Battle of the Nile. Unless I miss read, it sounds like it was used more than a passive barrier or for docking. It sounds like the French used it ship to ship in order to force a localized engagement...

To the archives :)

Edit: back from archives:

Orders were issued for each ship to attach strong cables to the bow and stern of their neighbours, which would effectively turn the line into a long battery forming a theoretically impregnable barrier.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Nile

The intent was that their position was to be superior... However it was poorly implemented:

In deploying his ships in this way, Brueys hoped that the British would be forced by the shoals to attack his strong centre and rear, allowing his van to use the prevailing northeasterly wind to counterattack the British once they were engaged.[54] However, he had made a serious misjudgement: he had left enough room between Guerrier and the shoals for an enemy ship to cut across the head of the French line and proceed between the shoals and the French ships, allowing the unsupported vanguard to be caught in a crossfire by two divisions of enemy ships.[55] Compounding this error, the French only prepared their ships for battle on their starboard (seaward) sides, from which they expected the attack would have to come; their landward port sides were unprepared.

Anywho, that's the idea. I'll leave it to develops to figure out unity and mechanics... An idea for them to consider.

Edited by Grim DeGrim
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Mortar barges would be chained in place as well, chain and spike near a shoal.

 

Actually the more extensive use of barriers was in the ACW, most famous being the whole Nashville siege from the river side.

 

But then, no naval guns will ever beat pre trained land batteries. ;)

 

Maybe it can be an option for the meta for sure. As you have on title, (Future)

Edited by Hethwill_Khan
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Chains where used to 'anchor' ships in crowded harbours. The chains where laid out in a grid and a ship could be anchored in one of the 'rectangles' by tying it to the chains on the bow and stern. I don't think these chains would be really useful for any tactical defence purpose, as they tie up you own ships.

...

The image you found isn't chains that are on the surface - in order to do that they'd have to be under a ton of tension, and you wouldn't be able to move your ship over top to then hook up to it.  What you're seeing, I believe, are chains that lay upon the bottom, with extensions that were buoyed to float on the surface.  A ship would pull up to a mooring buoy, hook it and pull it aboard, and then make themselves fast to it, preventing the need to drop anchor and allowing a large number of ships to be moored close together without them fouling each others' anchors.   Looking at the near-right part of the image, you can see a little square with a circle and a chain extended from it to one of the straight chains - I believe that's a representation of a mooring platform.  It's possible the French ships at the Nile were moored on a chain system in such a way as to allow them to warp and or easily turn their sides to better deal with an attacking enemy force, and I think the mention of the chain not causing a problem for a ship passing betwixt the two French vessels was mainly in that it wasn't made so tight that it was too near the surface afore/abaft the moored vessels so as to foul the ship trying to break the line.

 

Here is the quote that goes with the plate you've referenced:

THE useful part of a seaman’s duty is the application of his theoretic knowledge to the various evolutions of a ship. We are now about to shew how those various evolutions should be performed, consistently with the principles upon which the science of Navigation is founded.

A ship, when launched from the stocks, is furnished with one stream anchor, and another which is termed a launching-anchor, somewhat heavier than the stream-anchor, hanging by stoppers to the catheads; by one or both of these she is first brought up, and afterwards warped to what are termed

HEAD AND STERN MOORINGS;

of which the following is an accurate description. Across the bottom of the harbour or river, two chains, (parallel to each other, if the bed of the river will admit of it), are extended at the distance of 200 feet from each other, by means of anchors, having one fluke only, which is sunk, and secured in the ground by piles, on the opposite sides near low-water mark. To the rings of those anchors these chains are connected by a peculiar sort of link, called a shackle, which is delineated in the plate.

Each of these chains has, at about one-third of its length, a large iron ring, to which is fastened a chain, called an up-and-down span; which, lying on the ground, connects the parallel chains, and serves to keep them steadily in their places. At about 30 or 40 feet distance from each other, along each chain, chain-pendents (from 5 to 9 in number) are fastened, having, at the end which connects with the ground-work, a shackle; and, at the other end, a link called a jews-harp, through which the bridle or hawser of a ship, when moored, is passed. The centre chain-pendent is afixed to the ring of the chain; and the number of the chains must depend upon the number of tiers required, each tier occupying two chains, because the ships are moored head and stern. But every tier does not always occupy two whole chains; because, unless a passage between the tiers is requisite, the chain to which the head chain-pendent of one tier is affixed, has likewise fastened to it the stern chain-pendent of the next tier. A reference to the plate will elucidate this.

 

 

Another issue is attaching a chain to a ship in such a way as to foul a ship passing between the two, while not tearing the two ships to pieces.  Other than a mooring system as I've mentioned above, where would you attach a chain to two vessels in such a way as to not damage the vessels if another vessel hit the chain, and in such a way as to not cause one or both of the ships to lose their anchor cable and come unmoored?

 

That said, they did have large chain that they used to fix between two points to close a harbor, but I'm not sure ships were chained together in such a way as to effectively block another from passing through.

 

Edit:

I stand entirely corrected with regards to the Nile.  It appears as if there was a chain of some sort stretched amongst the French ships to prevent the English from breaking their line.  I have no idea what that would have looked like from an implementation standpoint, but I had missed that detail before.  :)

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I guess I'm hoping some of the history buffs out there might be able to at least validate the idea as being historical (I've provided one famous reference).

As an individual that hopes to lead large scale fleet engagements in port battles, I am looking for some "tools" or different (unique) tactics that might be used in a defensive capacity, or make an offensive more complex. [perhaps should rename the thread, for a request of additional offensive/defensive tactics that are beyond mere sailing & position?]

Edit for post script: I see your questions and thought process Mr Darby. Good thought process... But they did this at the Nile, so it must have been possible (?)

Edited by Grim DeGrim
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That's what I'm unsure about Grim.  Whether the reference was in regards to the mooring chains which would have been attached not between the ships but between the ship and the anchorpoint on the seafloor, or whether it was indeed with regards to ships actually physically chained together.  How do you "aim" the ship if it's chained tight to the one behind it?  I'm just not sure what that reference really meant.   :)

 

 

See my correction above.  :)

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Excellent question. Attached a link of battle progression. One would assume that a fleet might implement at a choke point, or otherwise defensible position... One in which the attacker must pass in front of your position.

There is more to the battle as they had ships ready in the rear... Perhaps it is quite situational... PLUS some captains did not follow the orders and put the links in place (so you will see below where line pentration occurred):

Battle_of_Aboukir_Bay.png

Edited by Grim DeGrim
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I know it's mostly unrelated to what's being discussed here, but I can't help but think of this:

 

My sun rose in the North and now sets in the South

The Golden Horn lives up to its name

From tower to tower a chain guards its mouth

Unbreakable, they claim

 

That chain was apparently fairly effective at preventing ships from entering or exiting, although it certainly wasn't unbreakable.

I reckon that could be a fairly interesting obstacle to consider.

 

As for chaining your line together? I don't think I trust people enough. Not to say I think it shouldn't be in the game, I'm all for adding as many options as possible. I'm just not convinced it'd be worth the effort for something that probably wouldn't be used too much. Or would be used far too much.

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The idea is somewhat less valuable without knowing if Harbor maps for Port Battles will have a type of geography that supports choke points and such (either by narrowed passage between land masses or via shallows...)

You would need the option to release the chains as well, but that action should take 20-30 seconds to complete.

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