"Naval Arms Race" mod overhaul. BETA v10.8 - "Shells & Ballistics rework" update - for UAD v1.5.0.9 Optx4

[Kerbo]

9 hours ago, o Barão said:

The zone of immunity (or immunity zone) around a warship is an area from which both plunging fire and direct enemy fire is less effective. The concept was a factor in battleship design and in tactics during engagements.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_of_immunity

In UAD, it is very simple to know if your ship is inside the zone of immunity.  Just teleport the camera to an enemy unit and hover the mouse above our ship. If the belt armor and deck armor are all red. Then you are inside the zone. Tip: You can always angle your armor to improve the belt armor effectiveness.

Yes. Weight and range. What you are saying is the most effective way to get a stable platform for your guns, however, if you're struggling with excessive weight or lack of range in your ships then you will need to increase the ship displacement, so it can support all the weight you need. For fuel, armor, etc.

Does range actually serve any purpose in the game? I found that it usually takes up weight and forces me into battles I'd rather not fight most of the time

[o Barão]

1 hour ago, Kerbo said:

Does range actually serve any purpose in the game? I found that it usually takes up weight and forces me into battles I'd rather not fight most of the time

Increase your chance of raiding merchants, and other battles I guess. Also improves the chance of winning naval invasions. But at the moment there is no major penalty by sailing with minimum range. There was in the beginning, but the players cried so much that the devs simple removed that penalty.

In fact, this is something that I should look into it. Fuel should be important if you want to sail to somewhere far away from a supply port.

[Kerbo]

9 minutes ago, o Barão said:

Increase your chance of raiding merchants, and other battles I guess. Also improves the chance of winning naval invasions. But at the moment there is no major penalty by sailing with minimum range. There was in the beginning, but the players cried so much that the devs simple removed that penalty.

In fact, this is something that I should look into it. Fuel should be important if you want to sail to somewhere far away from a supply port.

I think that such an addition would be welcome, would make sense for empires like UK, US or Russia, but not regional powers like AH and China, and force the the User to think of another aspect while designing their ships. also could you please look into adding various minor fixes to your mod? The flag of AH for example is not period accurate, and the british and french guns are too large in game.

[SpardaSon21]

On 3/28/2023 at 3:18 AM, o Barão said:

Well, that is almost nothing in comparison with the Bismarck. Are you sure about that information?

"The electric plant provided power to all the ship's services such as weaponry, steering, lighting, cranes, fans, gyros etc. It had a total output of 7,910 kw at 220 volts, with eight 500 kw Diesel generators, five 690 kw turbo-generators, and one 460 kw turbo-generator. These generators were distributed into four compartments (plants). The starboard electric plant No. 1 and the port electric plant No. 2 (E-Werk 1 und E-Werk 2) were located in section VIII, and had four 500 kw diesel generators each. The starboard electric plant No. 3 and the port electric plant No. 4 (E-Werk 3 und E-Werk 4) were located in section XIV, and included five 690 kw turbo-generators, and one 460 kw turbo-generator.

In addition, in section VII adjacent to the electric plant No. 1 on the starboard side, was the Diesel motor room No. 1 (WE-E-Werk 1). This room included a Type MWM RS 38 S Diesel engine developed by Motorenwerke Mannheim A.G. serial number 170093 (170094 in Tirpitz). It was a 6-cylinder engine that gave a normal output of 460 ehp at a speed of 600 r.p.m.; however, a 20% overload to 550 ehp was possible for 30 minutes if necessary. The 550 kVA AC Diesel generator of the type P23 FA925 10 Spez. B2 (P23 FA925/10+RP 91 sp. in Tirpitz) was manufactured by Garbe-Lahmeyer and numbered 377071 (376848 in Tirpitz). It generated alternating current."

Well, considering the Iowas had a total standard electrical output of 10,000kw at 450V derived from a pair of 1,250kw turbo-generators in each of their four engine rooms, compared to Bismarck's 7,910kw at 220V I don't think they were lacking in the power output department.  If you want to get as technical with power supply as you did with torpedo bulges, that is.

Edited March 29, 2023 by SpardaSon21

[o Barão]

8 hours ago, SpardaSon21 said:

Well, considering the Iowas had a total standard electrical output of 10,000kw at 450V derived from a pair of 1,250kw turbo-generators in each of their four engine rooms, compared to Bismarck's 7,910kw at 220V I don't think they were lacking in the power output department.  If you want to get as technical with power supply as you did with torpedo bulges, that is.

Well 10.000kw is a lot more compared to what you mention in the first place. That's why I asked if you were sure the first time.

 

12 hours ago, Kerbo said:

...also could you please look into adding various minor fixes to your mod? The flag of AH for example is not period accurate, and the british and french guns are too large in game.

That is beyond my skills and what I am interested to do. Not a priority for what is my end goal. The guns itself, is still a mystery for me at this point. I tried to add the Bofors to the USA and Britain without any luck. I am also interested to see if it is possible to add this guns to the German late destroyers at some point.

From German capital ships, WWI time period.

 

But, just to make it clear, my objective is to rework game mechanics related to ship design, ship combat, and some related to the campaign. Some to be more historical accurate, others to be QoL improvements to make the game more enjoyable to play. As an example, the fact the all ships in N.A.R., start the battle in columns.

The moment everything is more or less good to me, the mod will leave the alpha status and I will have a solid foundation for the next step. To make a huge ship design pack for the AI to use it against the player in the campaign or custom battles. This will raise the campaign difficulty to new levels and make the game more interesting to play. Well, I hope so.

[vonPeretz]

Hello!
I have not yet found how to put 6 inch guns on cruisers, but you can do it like this.

technologies-resources.assets-8204

gun_layout_3,gun_layout,,7-inch casemate guns,1891,,41,"start, sec_caliber(7)",,"1894, 2",Large hulls can support up to 7-inch guns in casemates.,Enables 7-inch secondary guns in casemates.,Enables 7-inch secondary guns in casemates.,
 

[vonPeretz]

I now have AI starting a fleet from 1890 with historical torpedo boats (up to 100 tons - 130 - 240 - 420).

parts-resources.assets-8201

tb_lowbow,,hull,Torpedo Boat,,-1,-1,3.1024,10,jap_tb_hull,1.475,,,"russia, china","type(tb), TB, tb, g1, var(bow_b)","hsize(240), hull_form(75), stability(24), floatability(25), endurance(15), spot(0), turn(75), vis(2450), beam(0), draught(0)",,,,0.32,0,2,100,450,,,,,,,,28,2,2,0.32,27.5,,
tb_highbow,,hull,Torpedo Boat,,-1,-1,3.1,10,jap_tb_hull,1.415,,,"germany, austria, italy","type(tb), TB, tb, g1, var(bow_c)","hsize(230), hull_form(85), stability(22), floatability(22), endurance(5), spot(0), turn(85), vis(2000), beam(0), draught(0)",,,,0.31,0,2,100,450,,,,,,,,29,2,2,0.31,28.5,,
tb_standard,,hull,Torpedo Boat,,-1,-1,3.1,10,jap_tb_hull,1.415,,,"usa, britain, france, spain, japan","type(tb), TB, tb, g1, var(bow_a)","hsize(230), hull_form(80), stability(25), floatability(20), endurance(10), spot(0), turn(80), vis(2250), beam(0), draught(0)",,,,0.33,0,2,100,450,,,,,,,,28.5,2,2,0.33,28,,

 

technologies-resources.assets-8204

hull_destroyer_1,hull_destroyer,,100 tons Torpedo Boat,1890,,36,"start, tonnage(tb;100)",,,Torpedo Boat hulls can be constructed larger.,Allows the construction of TB up to 100 tons displacement.,,
hull_destroyer_2,hull_destroyer,,130 tons Torpedo Boat,1892,,48,tonnage(tb;130),,,Torpedo Boat hulls can be constructed larger.,Allows the construction of TB up to 130 tons displacement.,,
hull_destroyer_3,hull_destroyer,,240 tons Torpedo Boat,1895,,60,tonnage(tb;240),,,Torpedo Boat hulls can be constructed larger.,Allows the construction of TB up to 240 tons displacement.,,
hull_destroyer_4,hull_destroyer,,420 tons Torpedo Boat,1900,,62,tonnage(tb;420),,,Torpedo Boat hulls can be constructed larger.,Allows the construction of TB up to 420 tons displacement.,,
 

 

[o Barão]

4 minutes ago, vonPeretz said:

I now have AI starting a fleet from 1890 with historical torpedo boats (up to 100 tons - 130 - 240 - 420).

parts-resources.assets-8201

tb_lowbow,,hull,Torpedo Boat,,-1,-1,3.1024,10,jap_tb_hull,1.475,,,"russia, china","type(tb), TB, tb, g1, var(bow_b)","hsize(240), hull_form(75), stability(24), floatability(25), endurance(15), spot(0), turn(75), vis(2450), beam(0), draught(0)",,,,0.32,0,2,100,450,,,,,,,,28,2,2,0.32,27.5,,
tb_highbow,,hull,Torpedo Boat,,-1,-1,3.1,10,jap_tb_hull,1.415,,,"germany, austria, italy","type(tb), TB, tb, g1, var(bow_c)","hsize(230), hull_form(85), stability(22), floatability(22), endurance(5), spot(0), turn(85), vis(2000), beam(0), draught(0)",,,,0.31,0,2,100,450,,,,,,,,29,2,2,0.31,28.5,,
tb_standard,,hull,Torpedo Boat,,-1,-1,3.1,10,jap_tb_hull,1.415,,,"usa, britain, france, spain, japan","type(tb), TB, tb, g1, var(bow_a)","hsize(230), hull_form(80), stability(25), floatability(20), endurance(10), spot(0), turn(80), vis(2250), beam(0), draught(0)",,,,0.33,0,2,100,450,,,,,,,,28.5,2,2,0.33,28,,

 

technologies-resources.assets-8204

hull_destroyer_1,hull_destroyer,,100 tons Torpedo Boat,1890,,36,"start, tonnage(tb;100)",,,Torpedo Boat hulls can be constructed larger.,Allows the construction of TB up to 100 tons displacement.,,
hull_destroyer_2,hull_destroyer,,130 tons Torpedo Boat,1892,,48,tonnage(tb;130),,,Torpedo Boat hulls can be constructed larger.,Allows the construction of TB up to 130 tons displacement.,,
hull_destroyer_3,hull_destroyer,,240 tons Torpedo Boat,1895,,60,tonnage(tb;240),,,Torpedo Boat hulls can be constructed larger.,Allows the construction of TB up to 240 tons displacement.,,
hull_destroyer_4,hull_destroyer,,420 tons Torpedo Boat,1900,,62,tonnage(tb;420),,,Torpedo Boat hulls can be constructed larger.,Allows the construction of TB up to 420 tons displacement.,,
 

 

About casemates guns, I suspect I will find the answer in "partsModels". Possible by adding ship type, maybe will work. That is something that I still need to try.

casemate_7,,178,casemate_7,,,casemate_gun_150_x1,1.48862,1.591863,1,,casemate_gun_150_x1,1.519,1.62435,1.05,,casemate_gun_150_x1,1.55,1.6575,1.1,,casemate_gun_150_x1,1.581,1.69065,1.15,,casemate_gun_150_x1,1.61262,1.724463,0.9,,,,,,,,,,,

 

About the TBs size, the idea is interesting, but there were already +500 tons torpedo gun boats before 1890.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grasshopper-class_torpedo_gunboat

[killjoy1941]

@o Barão

At the risk of giving you a heart attack, might I suggest changing gun accuracy as it relates to caliber to an historical value, and instead using an economic incentive? If extremely desirable techs are particularly costly, you can influence player decisions just as effectively as though you changed the perceived value of those techs by changing their performance.

BTW, I really only ever play the TTE mod for WotS. You damn near all of that, and you should be proud of your work. I'm happy to see you here on UA:D. 

[o Barão]

10 hours ago, killjoy1941 said:

@o Barão

At the risk of giving you a heart attack, might I suggest changing gun accuracy as it relates to caliber to an historical value, and instead using an economic incentive?

I am already feeling my blood pressure

 

An economic incentive as mean to incentive player decisions when we are talking about guns accuracy. I will need a more detailed explanation to understand exactly what is your idea.

10 hours ago, killjoy1941 said:

 

BTW, I really only ever play the TTE mod for WotS. You damn near all of that, and you should be proud of your work. I'm happy to see you here on UA:D. 

Thank you! I hope to get a similar thing here. But it will take a few more months.

[SpardaSon21]

On 3/30/2023 at 12:50 AM, o Barão said:

Well 10.000kw is a lot more compared to what you mention in the first place. That's why I asked if you were sure the first time.

 

Considering I described that 500kw from the diesels as backup power I'm not sure how you read it as me saying it was their main power.  Language issue, maybe?

 

On 3/30/2023 at 12:50 AM, o Barão said:

But, just to make it clear, my objective is to rework game mechanics related to ship design, ship combat, and some related to the campaign. Some to be more historical accurate, others to be QoL improvements to make the game more enjoyable to play. As an example, the fact the all ships in N.A.R., start the battle in columns.

 

I strongly recommend looking into equipment modules.  While the armor and sonar changes are great, the citadel and powder/filler components should IMO be next in line due to how heavily they affect the armor and gun balance.

Edited March 31, 2023 by SpardaSon21

[Kerbo]

On 3/30/2023 at 9:50 AM, o Barão said:

Well 10.000kw is a lot more compared to what you mention in the first place. That's why I asked if you were sure the first time.

 

That is beyond my skills and what I am interested to do. Not a priority for what is my end goal. The guns itself, is still a mystery for me at this point. I tried to add the Bofors to the USA and Britain without any luck. I am also interested to see if it is possible to add this guns to the German late destroyers at some point.

From German capital ships, WWI time period.

 

But, just to make it clear, my objective is to rework game mechanics related to ship design, ship combat, and some related to the campaign. Some to be more historical accurate, others to be QoL improvements to make the game more enjoyable to play. As an example, the fact the all ships in N.A.R., start the battle in columns.

The moment everything is more or less good to me, the mod will leave the alpha status and I will have a solid foundation for the next step. To make a huge ship design pack for the AI to use it against the player in the campaign or custom battles. This will raise the campaign difficulty to new levels and make the game more interesting to play. Well, I hope so.

Well whenever you reach that point I'd be happy to contribute some of my own designs 🙂

[killjoy1941]

7 hours ago, o Barão said:

I am already feeling my blood pressure

 

An economic incentive as mean to incentive player decisions when we are talking about guns accuracy. I will need a more detailed explanation to understand exactly what is your idea.

 

If possible, make large guns much, much more expensive. 18-20" guns would become vanity projects if the turrets essentially doubled the cost of the ship. Hell, even the necessary barbettes could be made to be expensive. That way you get to keep the accuracy while creating a general disincentive to building large amounts of ships with giant guns.

[o Barão]

6 hours ago, SpardaSon21 said:

Language issue, maybe?

Most likely.

 

2 hours ago, killjoy1941 said:

 

If possible, make large guns much, much more expensive. 18-20" guns would become vanity projects if the turrets essentially doubled the cost of the ship. Hell, even the necessary barbettes could be made to be expensive.

They already are much more expensive. A dual 20" is something like 170% more expensive, in comparison with a dual 15" and much heavier. Needing a bigger hull (more money & bigger docks), etc. And then we have subs and strategic considerations.

 

Do you prefer to have two BB in different locations, or only one super BB in one location?

Do you prefer to lose a regular BB against a sub or a super BB?

 

This factors alone are enough to balance them. And if a player is happy in building super BBs, good. In the end, it is only a game anyway.

 

Also, this list is very interesting to take a look. 2x Heavy 8" cruisers are more expensive than 1 Bismarck.

https://www.kbismarck.com/warship-construction-cost.html

Bismarck 196M

Prinz Eugen 104M

 

[killjoy1941]

16 minutes ago, o Barão said:

Most likely.

 

They already are much more expensive. A dual 20" is something like 170% more expensive, in comparison with a dual 15" and much heavier. Needing a bigger hull (more money & bigger docks), etc. And then we have subs and strategic considerations.

 

Do you prefer to have two BB in different locations, or only one super BB in one location?

Do you prefer to lose a regular BB against a sub or a super BB?

 

This factors alone are enough to balance them. And if a player is happy in building super BBs, good. In the end, it is only a game anyway.

 

Also, this list is very interesting to take a look. 2x Heavy 8" cruisers are more expensive than 1 Bismarck.

https://www.kbismarck.com/warship-construction-cost.html

Bismarck 196M

Prinz Eugen 104M

 

Yup. I'm just saying that there are alternatives to stat nerfs - it's a game after all. Whatever you choose to do, I'll be playing it anyway as I trust your takes on system revisions. 

[Dave P.]

17 hours ago, o Barão said:

Also, this list is very interesting to take a look. 2x Heavy 8" cruisers are more expensive than 1 Bismarck.

https://www.kbismarck.com/warship-construction-cost.html

Bismarck 196M

Prinz Eugen 104M

 

The Hippers were... not a super successful procurement program, but UAD doesn't factor in the costs of last minute design changes.

The RN intentionally designed cheap cruisers and their prewar ratio was almost 4:1, as near as I can figure. (They weren't building 8" armed CAs at the same time as battleships, so I'm fudging a little bit, but Counties were 1.8M each in the early 30s and and the KJVs were 7.9M a few years later) Sure, maybe on paper a County couldn't take a Hipper 1v1, but in practice the County would bring friends.

For the US, it was closer: ~2.5 CAs per battleship (Baltimore vs. Iowa), but that was during wartime. They threw a lot of shipyard workers at a project and paid them relatively well compared to other countries' workforces. I can't find specific breakdowns for the ships in question, but in manufacturing in general, that usually drives costs a lot, and as you scale up a product, not all line item costs scale equally. (e.g., Widget A might use 3x as many parts as Widget B, but only cost 2x as much to assemble.)

It's speculation, obviously, but if the US could get a better "deal" on cruisers during wartime when they were writing blank checks, as opposed to the Kriegsmarine during peacetime, my suspicion is that the KM had... organizational and accounting issues. (i.e., some of that RM104M price tag probably ended up lining some pockets and paying for hookers and blow.)

Edited April 1, 2023 by Dave P.

[MasterBurte]

Is it possible that you remove some building limitations in this mod? Just got frustrated, that you can place barbettes only on very limited places. Would be nice to have the rectangular barbette to be freely placed on any ship and instead of having only one gun mount on top beeing able to mount multiple smaller or a bigger gun on it our choosing. I try to make multiple layers of secondaries but the game is somewhat limited.

[o Barão]

W.I.P.

Credits for the idea/solution goes to "M3rky1"

Edited April 2, 2023 by o Barão

[o Barão]

8 hours ago, MasterBurte said:

Is it possible that you remove some building limitations in this mod? Just got frustrated, that you can place barbettes only on very limited places. Would be nice to have the rectangular barbette to be freely placed on any ship and instead of having only one gun mount on top beeing able to mount multiple smaller or a bigger gun on it our choosing. I try to make multiple layers of secondaries but the game is somewhat limited.

Probably not. Well, maybe someone with more skills can do it. I can't.

[o Barão]

14 hours ago, Dave P. said:

The Hippers were... not a super successful procurement program, but UAD doesn't factor in the costs of last minute design changes.

The RN intentionally designed cheap cruisers and their prewar ratio was almost 4:1, as near as I can figure. (They weren't building 8" armed CAs at the same time as battleships, so I'm fudging a little bit, but Counties were 1.8M each in the early 30s and and the KJVs were 7.9M a few years later) Sure, maybe on paper a County couldn't take a Hipper 1v1, but in practice the County would bring friends.

For the US, it was closer: ~2.5 CAs per battleship (Baltimore vs. Iowa), but that was during wartime. They threw a lot of shipyard workers at a project and paid them relatively well compared to other countries' workforces. I can't find specific breakdowns for the ships in question, but in manufacturing in general, that usually drives costs a lot, and as you scale up a product, not all line item costs scale equally. (e.g., Widget A might use 3x as many parts as Widget B, but only cost 2x as much to assemble.)

It's speculation, obviously, but if the US could get a better "deal" on cruisers during wartime when they were writing blank checks, as opposed to the Kriegsmarine during peacetime, my suspicion is that the KM had... organizational and accounting issues. (i.e., some of that RM104M price tag probably ended up lining some pockets and paying for hookers and blow.)

I mentioned the Prinz Eugen and Bismarck, because I found interesting the costs comparing both ships. They were commissioned in the same year. So same technology available for both, but one is much bigger, with 15" guns, but still the CA is more than half the price of the Bismarck. As "killjoy1941" gave the idea to increase the huge guns cost as a balance factor, I thought it would be worth it to share this info. It is not because one ship is much bigger that we are going to see a huge difference also in the price. I suspect the most expensive component to be the engines, and that would explain why this values. But I am guessing here.

[SpardaSon21]

8 hours ago, o Barão said:

I mentioned the Prinz Eugen and Bismarck, because I found interesting the costs comparing both ships. They were commissioned in the same year. So same technology available for both, but one is much bigger, with 15" guns, but still the CA is more than half the price of the Bismarck. As "killjoy1941" gave the idea to increase the huge guns cost as a balance factor, I thought it would be worth it to share this info. It is not because one ship is much bigger that we are going to see a huge difference also in the price. I suspect the most expensive component to be the engines, and that would explain why this values. But I am guessing here.

As he said, redesigns and graft are the most likely explanations.  Contrary to popular image, the Third Reich was not exactly the most efficient when it came to military procurement.  That and a good chunk of the cost would be the machinery.  Prinz Eugen had the same machinery setup as the Bismarcks with 12 boilers feeding into three turbines, which is uh... not exactly the most efficient or cost-effective way to set up your propulsion system.  For comparison USS Wichita used eight boilers that fed into four turbines to crank out 100k horsepower, and the Baltimores right after only four boilers and four turbines to generate 120k horsepower.

[o Barão]

W.I.P.

Super angled funnel and enhanced angled funnel size tweaks, to enable them to fit in these places. (modern destroyer II hull)

 

Added super angled funnel variants to modern destroyer leader hull. (germany;austria)

Fixed the comical huge "Tall tower" variants. (before)

After

Edited April 4, 2023 by o Barão

[clavernever]

Absolutely amazing!

As a proponent of pushing ship design to it's limits wherever possible, new and interesting options like these add a lot of fun and spice to one's shippage potential.

[o Barão]

---Important note----

The devs announced a new update to arrive this week. This will probably take a few weeks, with many updates to be fully implemented, with new features, hulls and bug fixes. Because of this, I will not be updating the mod during this time.

 

However, I will take this time to see what hulls and tower components are coming and to continue to work on the next update.

This will include:

- Scoutplanes mechanic.

- Ammo and fuel replenish at sea rebalanced.

- Ship movement in the campaign improved.

- Many changes to funnels.

- New tower components created and added to DDs; CLs and some CAs to improve the design experience with more options.

*New german-austrian destroyer leader main tower.

- And a few more things.

[MDHansen]

completely understandable regards to keeping up with the beta/patches.

Loving the work you are doing on the funnels etc. I really want more options, funnels and towers in particular)