UAD Rebalancing Mod For [v1.4.0.5 R2]

[anonusername]

3 hours ago, admiralsnackbar said:

V0.6 changes (for 1.1.3)

It is difficult to keep current with a daily update schedule, being quick about this limits my ability to guaranty that campaigns and battles are not broken. I very quickly checked my own campaign and custom battles to make sure they could launch properly, but that is no guaranty. Please be kind to me if something breaks, just revert to vanilla and inform me about it.

• Updated files to allow for compatibility with latest hotfix (1.1.2). Some small differences from v0.3 in terms of the what is changed from vanilla. If not mentioned assume it’s the same as before:
  • Accuracies
    • Detection range modifiers for weather have been “on-leveled” so that the relative differences between them are preserved, but the new “base detection” is 1.5x what the base detection is. @neph
    •  Anecdotally looks like it’s working but it’s the sort of thing that is insanely hard to test. Feedback on this ‘change’ is very strongly requested.
    • Will adjust based on feedback and also possible future changes as needed.
  • Params
    • Anything I noticed that was altered between 1.1.3 and 1.1.2 I have deferred to. I’ve squeezed some of the gdp modifiers to be closer to vanilla again. If national economy collapses stop happening I may remove them completely for the next version.
    • Chance of peace/war after you make your choice is still 90%

Have you tried checking the csv files into git? It occurs to me that you could use the git merge/rebase functionality to manage csv changes. Effectively, treat your version as a fork of the base game and periodically rebase on upstream.

[admiralsnackbar]

6 hours ago, anonusername said:

Have you tried checking the csv files into git? It occurs to me that you could use the git merge/rebase functionality to manage csv changes. Effectively, treat your version as a fork of the base game and periodically rebase on upstream.

No but in my defense I don't know the slightest thing about that. If you want to forward me some tutorials I can look into it. 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by admiralsnackbar

[TachiKaze]

So with the new spotting changes your spotting ships at roughly just before max range of your guns in 1910-1920 era engagements in ideal weather, in the most stormy seas its about 8-16km depending on the class of ship  

[neph]

Spotting changes seem excellent

[anonusername]

10 hours ago, admiralsnackbar said:

No but in my defense I don't know the slightest thing about that. If you want to forward me some tutorials I can look into it. 

 

https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2

https://git-scm.com/download/win

It is a tool for managing text files which are being revised in parallel by multiple people or teams (among other things).

[JaM]

13 hours ago, TachiKaze said:

So with the new spotting changes your spotting ships at roughly just before max range of your guns in 1910-1920 era engagements in ideal weather, in the most stormy seas its about 8-16km depending on the class of ship  

which is how it should be... game is a lot less frustrating when trying to find the enemy..

[PalaiologosTheGreat]

I feel that cap ballistic I/II is now way too overpowered when penetrating. Like, it does super-heavy damage but is at an earlier tech level. 

Edited January 28, 2023 by PalaiologosTheGreat

[o Barão]

2 hours ago, PalaiologosTheGreat said:

I feel that cap ballistic I/II is now way too overpowered when penetrating. Like, it does super-heavy damage but is at an earlier tech level. 

In fact, is the worst.

[o Barão]

Hurry up, mission - reload issue.

• 40.9 sec dual 12-inch gun.

• 40.9 sec dual 13-inch gun.

• 37.2 sec reload dual 14-inch gun.

Needs a little tweak.

UPDATE

 

With the default barrel length, it is possible to get 15.6 sec reload for the dual 14-inch gun. This is too much, IMO.

Edited January 28, 2023 by o Barão

[o Barão]

Hurry up mission - spotting

This mission seems to be the right choice to see the differences in the spotting mechanic. Where in vanilla game we start this mission without seeing anything, here we can spot almost everything from the start. I was a little worried if the AI would focus entirely in killing my merchants, but no. Because they could see my BCs coming, the AI decided instead to run away. But is possible to win with fast ships.

I like, a lot, the changes to the spotting mechanic. +1 from me.

[spinaker]

The process has become more interesting, definitely

[admiralsnackbar]

4 hours ago, o Barão said:

Hurry up, mission - reload issue.

 

• 40.9 sec dual 12-inch gun.

 

• 40.9 sec dual 13-inch gun.

 

37.2 sec reload dual 14-inch gun.

Needs a little tweak.

UPDATE

 

With the default barrel length, it is possible to get 15.6 sec reload for the dual 14-inch gun. This is too much, IMO.

14 inch MK iii actually does get a slightly higher reload than 12 inch MK iii for the same reason 18 inch MK 1 has a faster ROF then the 13 inch mk i. I think the reason I had the 12 inch MK IV come out in 1930 and the MK iii 14 inch come out before is because the MK iv 11 Inch is supposed to be the gun for the panzerschiff whereas the MK iii 14-18 inch guns are just trying to fill up the years of the 20s that aren't taken.  

Tech 'Tree'
https://imgur.com/NvcNz9W

ROF:

https://imgur.com/NDNzDaN

As for the 15 seconds the default ROF is 2.2, [MK iii] so I think it's a case of the bonuses getting too hot and heavy. 
 

  

5 hours ago, o Barão said:

In fact, is the worst.

can you  clarify

Edited January 28, 2023 by admiralsnackbar

[o Barão]

4 minutes ago, admiralsnackbar said:

can you  clarify

Yes of course. @PalaiologosTheGreat mentions, and I quote, "...is now way too overpowered when penetrating."

Well, if we are talking about raw damage done by a shell if is able to penetrate the armor, then capped ballistics II is the worst if we compare with the other options.

- 10% AP damage.

+55% AP damage from SAP shells. A 65% difference. This is normal. Capped ballistic shells have a heavier cap to help penetrate the armor, but the trade-off is a smaller explosive weight inside.

 

About the guns, I am a little confused. You are using reference from actual ships to get the reload times? I just took a look at 1940 guns available for the player and there are some strange situations. Is better than vanilla, no doubt, but still some strange things.

[admiralsnackbar]

39 minutes ago, o Barão said:

Yes of course. @PalaiologosTheGreat mentions, and I quote, "...is now way too overpowered when penetrating."

Well, if we are talking about raw damage done by a shell if is able to penetrate the armor, then capped ballistics II is the worst if we compare with the other options.

- 10% AP damage.

+55% AP damage from SAP shells. A 65% difference. This is normal. Capped ballistic shells have a heavier cap to help penetrate the armor, but the trade-off is a smaller explosive weight inside.

 

About the guns, I am a little confused. You are using reference from actual ships to get the reload times? I just took a look at 1940 guns available for the player and there are some strange situations. Is better than vanilla, no doubt, but still some strange things.

Not specific ships but I used actual ships to craft what I saw was a reasonable default range. 

Looking at the chart i posted let me know if default reload rates [i.e. without any bonuses] violate the trends I posted and i will revisit then. 

The bonuses giving overly generous reload rate reductions is its own issue. 

[PalaiologosTheGreat]

1 hour ago, o Barão said:

About the guns, I am a little confused. You are using reference from actual ships to get the reload times? I just took a look at 1940 guns available for the player and there are some strange situations. Is better than vanilla, no doubt, but still some strange things.

 

What reloading mechanism are you using? The were working on an autoloading 16" gun design that could fire about 3 rounds per minute. If they would use a 15" or 14" gun, they could definitely get to 4 rounds a minute or something. 

[anonusername]

41 minutes ago, admiralsnackbar said:

Not specific ships but I used actual ships to craft what I saw was a reasonable default range. 

Looking at the chart i posted let me know if default reload rates [i.e. without any bonuses] violate the trends I posted and i will revisit then. 

The bonuses giving overly generous reload rate reductions is its own issue. 

Are you still looking at tweaking the aiming bonus? I think I finally found the relevant settings. See https://www.desmos.com/calculator/qftyff3m9m for the equation. a should come from target_locked_exp and b from target_locked_base.

[admiralsnackbar]

12 minutes ago, anonusername said:

Are you still looking at tweaking the aiming bonus? I think I finally found the relevant settings. See https://www.desmos.com/calculator/qftyff3m9m for the equation. a should come from target_locked_exp and b from target_locked_base.

I saw that formula but I am not sure how it maps to the target locked multipliers that I see in game, which don't go from 0 to 1.26 but more like 0 to 15. It's also not clear what X represents in this instance. 

[anonusername]

1 hour ago, admiralsnackbar said:

I saw that formula but I am not sure how it maps to the target locked multipliers that I see in game, which don't go from 0 to 1.26 but more like 0 to 15. It's also not clear what X represents in this instance. 

The values have changed since the chart was created, you need to plug in the current target_locked_* values to get the current system. I think x is the number of "steps" into the ladder aiming you are at. It is probably somehow related to the "ladder aiming growth" column in the gun stats. I don't understand what the y column is though. It current goes up to 1.5, so maybe it is multiplied by 10 to get the final effect?

Edited January 28, 2023 by anonusername

[admiralsnackbar]

6 minutes ago, anonusername said:

The values have changed since the chart was created, you need to plug in the current target_locked_* values to get the current system. I think x is the number of "steps" into the ladder aiming you are at. It is probably somehow related to the "ladder aiming growth" column in the gun stats. I don't understand what the y column is though. It current goes up to 1.5, so maybe it is multiplied by 10 to get the final effect?

plausible 

[o Barão]

7 hours ago, PalaiologosTheGreat said:

 

What reloading mechanism are you using? The were working on an autoloading 16" gun design that could fire about 3 rounds per minute. If they would use a 15" or 14" gun, they could definitely get to 4 rounds a minute or something. 

o7!

If you are talking about the situation where I got 15 sec reload with a dual 14-inch gun, I was using the best options available to me in game, but that is irrelevant. What matters is this value is unrealistic and impossible in UAD time frame and with the technology available in game. You are talking about an autoloading mechanic for a 16" gun that could allow 3 round a minute.  If I am not mistaken, the only time I heard anything about that was in a Drachinifel video about a purpose for a British BB to be built after WW2. And that was cancelled and is outside the UAD time frame. That technology is not in the game and we should ignore that possibility. I can give you a great example. Let's try to replicate the Des Moines 8" inch gun in game.

The best tech available, with 9% barrel lenght to have the same historical dimension. And this with standard shell weight, not the heavy used by the Americans. Result 9.6 sec.

Historical, the Des Moines guns [8"/55 (20.3 cm) RF Mark 16] could get a 6 sec reload.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_8-55_mk16.php

This is only to show that those autoloading mechanics are not present in the game time frame and should be ignored. Instead, I strongly suggest to use historical data from the time period. Navweaps is a great source of information in this regard.

Edited January 28, 2023 by o Barão

[o Barão]

@admiralsnackbar

That is a nice detail!

I am going to look at the guns in detail and report back any strange issue I can find.

[anonusername]

1 hour ago, o Barão said:

o7!

If you are talking about the situation where I got 15 sec reload with a dual 14-inch gun, I was using the best options available to me in game, but that is irrelevant. What matters is this value is unrealistic and impossible in UAD time frame and with the technology available in game. You are talking about an autoloading mechanic for a 16" gun that could allow 3 round a minute.  If I am not mistaken, the only time I heard anything about that was in a Drachinifel video about a purpose for a British BB to be built after WW2. And that was cancelled and is outside the UAD time frame. That technology is not in the game and we should ignore that possibility. I can give you a great example. Let's try to replicate the Des Moines 8" inch gun in game.

The best tech available, with 9% barrel lenght to have the same historical dimension. And this with standard shell weight, not the heavy used by the Americans. Result 9.6 sec.

Historical, the Des Moines guns [8"/55 (20.3 cm) RF Mark 16] could get a 6 sec reload.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_8-55_mk16.php

This is only to show that those autoloading mechanics are not present in the game time frame and should be ignored. Instead, I strongly suggest to use historical data from the time period. Navweaps is a great source of information in this regard.

Pretty sure that the campaign can run to 1950, which would put the Des Moines gun into the timespan. 

[o Barão]

38 minutes ago, anonusername said:

Pretty sure that the campaign can run to 1950, which would put the Des Moines gun into the timespan. 

My test to replicate the Des Moines guns in game shows that it is impossible to reach the same results. In conclusion, those autoloading mechanics from the Des Moines cruiser are not present in game and to consider to have anything similar that could be applied to a BB caliber gun is unrealistic and a fantasy. In theory, yes, we could have, but in reality we don't.

To make it more clear, the auto II reloading in game is available in custom battles from 1935. The mechanism for the guns on Des Moines was designed in 1943. Also, the auto II reloading mechanism in game have +19.5% weight modifier. The Des Moines turrets had a 50% weight increased in comparison with the turrets in the Baltimore.

"Unfortunately, all this performance came at a steep price in weight, with the turrets mountings for these guns weighing 50% more than those in the previous Baltimore class. "

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_8-55_mk16.php

 

In conclusion those are not the same mechanism.

[anonusername]

13 minutes ago, o Barão said:

My test to replicate the Des Moines guns in game shows that it is impossible to reach the same results. In conclusion, those autoloading mechanics from the Des Moines cruiser are not present in game and to consider to have anything similar that could be applied to a BB caliber gun is unrealistic and a fantasy. In theory, yes, we could have, but in reality we don't.

To make it more clear, the auto II reloading in game is available in custom battles from 1935. The mechanism for the guns on Des Moines was designed in 1943. Also, the auto II reloading mechanism in game have +19.5% weight modifier. The Des Moines turrets had a 50% weight increased in comparison with the turrets in the Baltimore.

"Unfortunately, all this performance came at a steep price in weight, with the turrets mountings for these guns weighing 50% more than those in the previous Baltimore class. "

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_8-55_mk16.php

 

In conclusion those are not the same mechanism.

Moving the Auto II forward to the 1940s and giving it a bigger weight penalty seems like a decent idea to me.

[o Barão]

30 minutes ago, anonusername said:

Moving the Auto II forward to the 1940s and giving it a bigger weight penalty seems like a decent idea to me.

This doesn't change the fact that the component will not give the same reload time performance as the mechanism used in the Des Moines. They are not the same. And this started because I noticed an unrealistic reload time for a dual 14-inch gun. If we were to consider buffing the reload bonus to get a similar performance to the mechanism used in the Des Moines cruiser, well in that case it is better to say goodbye to any realism because you are going to play a 100% fantasy game in late years and with guns firing so quickly that you will have many issues in battle if used this component with QF small caliber guns. And from what I read, is the mod author intention to keep this balanced, with focus in historical facts for the most part, which I agree 100%.

"The general purpose of this mod is to tune some of the features of the research, campaign and ship builder to give an experience that tries to balance historical realism with reasonable trade-offs."

Edited January 29, 2023 by o Barão