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What's coming next (v1.06) *UPDATE 28/5/2022*


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These are all well and good, for sure, and I am most excited about the detailed citadels. Anything that improves shipbuilding to make it more realistic is a fine addition. However, I still see an overall emphasis on adding new things versus fixing existing things. What we need most is a pause in this mentality of build build build to improve what already is in game. Namely:

- I have said it many times and must state it again. We need an overhaul on how ships return to ports, whether alone, or in task force, whether damaged or not. The current system is completely illogical, even for it's stated purpose of preventing "overfull" ports with too much tonnage in them. There are simple ways to prevent this. The current system of port-shuffling most of your ships every turn is extremely tedious, wastes time, and is the #1 factor making me not want to actively play this game. I am tired of figuring out which distant port my vessels have steamed off to every single turn.

- Naval Intelligence anyone? This should be a priority for campaign as it is, far more than simple "expansion." As it stands, test an intelligence system while the game is still relatively small, and uncomplicated. Expansion will just make it harder on the engine, more to keep track of. We need to be able to know what to build against, what vessels the enemy might have in which ports. This was crucial to naval warfare historically, and should be a top priority over simply making the game larger to appease Steam people dreaming of a world war...

- Lastly, I would still like to see, and have been pushing for since the autumn, an overhaul to visual backgrounds/weather. This is crucial in it's own right for full immersion and for the game to make sense (penalties to accuracy for being in a "full gale" while the sky and sea look normal???). But, it is also a stepping stone on the path to the mythical spotting redo that we all want to see someday. How can we have a true naval wargame with barely any visual differentiation and no true weather?

Edited by Littorio
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On 4/22/2022 at 7:26 PM, Nick Thomadis said:

Hello Admirals,

After the last major update which we hope you enjoy it, we started to work on the next major features. We can now share a confirmed list of the next very important new features, which you also have asked many times from us. 

  • Long campaign with peacetime periods: This was actually a planned and expected feature of the campaign. On the current WIP map you will be able to start from your selected year without instant wars. New tension mechanics and special events will trigger diplomacy effects. Alliances will be formed and different wars will be fought throughout decades of gameplay.
     
  • New detailed Citadel: The damage model becomes upgraded with a far more detailed armoring system. The way you layout out your guns and funnels will affect the length of the citadel (the armored box covered by the main belt and deck) and you will be able to view it in the ship preview during the design process.

    So it will be now fully realistic to create Nelson type ships which save weight due to the shortening of the armored citadel. Moreover, the hull weight and strength in each section will be dependent from the way you choose to layout your main guns as well as the center of its mass. For example, the sections in the middle will be significantly stronger and more resistant against damage than the lighter sections at the edges of the ship. Finally, you will be able to add an extra multi-layered armor in the citadel and choose independently its values according to the components enabled "All or Nothing", "Turtleback" etc.
     
  • New Special Gun Calibers: A new design panel will allow you to edit the diameter and length of the gun barrels which will affect the gun statistics and their actual size on the ship. So, for example, you will be able to have calibers such as 13.5 inch for your guns before you research the next bigger 14 inch caliber. The variations of designs now will become extremely enriched, as each ship will look different also on the gun scales.
  • Dud Torpedoes: Torpedoes will not be as successful as now but will detonate and damage ships according to their angle of impact and their technology. You may have torpedoes to not explode on impact or explode prematurely with new visual effects.

Many more will be added, which we will share as soon as we arrive closer to the release of the next update.

Thank you for reading!
The Game - Labs Team

 

Amazing, amazing, AMAZING! Thank you for the intel!

I am glad to see not just progress in the campaign, but also how much more fleshed out and polished the designer is becoming. To me, the designer was always the selling point of the game, so every time it gets improved, I become happier about the game!

I am also glad to see the realistic torpedo nerfs, I've always felt the current meta made bots spam torpedos way too much successfully.

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So far using version 1.06 I've seen:

Inland Naval Battles.

Damaged ships on both sides in fresh battles, a month apart. In fact I saw a damaged British Destroyer, the Roy Rob  :>)), in a damaged condition in battles three months running.

Still seeing ships moving from Wilhelmshaven transporting over to Kiel on their way to the North Sea.

Then I agree, Torpedos need work in this game.

We need the ability to launch torpedoes in a more realistic way. Off, Save, Normal and Aggressive is fine, but we need finer controls over torpedos. Why do we have to fire 2, 4 or even 6 torpedos at a transport, then one would do the job? We need the ability to select the torpedo launching device, and how many to launch from said device. We need to select the spread angle of a salvo of torpedos; at least narrow, normal and wide. Also, we need the ability to instruct the torpedo tubes to track a target, without launching a torpedo. Finally, we need the ability to launch a torpedo upon a command, if said torpedo tube is tracking a target.

 

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3 hours ago, Gregg said:

Then I agree, Torpedos need work in this game.

We need the ability to launch torpedoes in a more realistic way. Off, Save, Normal and Aggressive is fine, but we need finer controls over torpedos. Why do we have to fire 2, 4 or even 6 torpedos at a transport, then one would do the job? We need the ability to select the torpedo launching device, and how many to launch from said device. We need to select the spread angle of a salvo of torpedos; at least narrow, normal and wide. Also, we need the ability to instruct the torpedo tubes to track a target, without launching a torpedo. Finally, we need the ability to launch a torpedo upon a command, if said torpedo tube is tracking a target.

Then the AI will be at decisive disadvantage, because humans can do all of the above and some, the AI can't. Plus humans can predict or take a chance of where the enemy will be or might be or corralled to be, the AI cannot do this either. 

But by keeping torpedo launching strictly automatic on each side, torpedo's remain balanced (in regards to nonlinear predictions). 

Edited by Skeksis
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Long campaign with peacetime periods: This was actually a planned and expected feature of the campaign. On the current WIP map you will be able to start from your selected year without instant wars. New tension mechanics and special events will trigger diplomacy effects. Alliances will be formed and different wars will be fought throughout decades of gameplay.

You know there's something else that's not in-game yet, not even in any of the GameLabs games, that's AIs campaign vs AIs campaign (other wars that are not versing human). We only have AI campaign vs Human campaign.

Total War has it, and if it works similarly, it could be a really big step for the game's development.

Quote
  • Dud Torpedoes: Torpedoes will not be as successful as now but will detonate and damage ships according to their angle of impact and their technology. You may have torpedoes to not explode on impact or explode prematurely with new visual effects.

I have my reservations about this, IMO it's going to devalue destroyers.

Already you are expected to lose DDs undertaking torpedo runs. The ones that survive this long arduous journey into position to launch torpedo's, then only to be duds, and then the target survive the attack, un-sunk, to complete its destruction of your DDs force. All for what - nothing.

If duds devalue destroyers, then human players just won't use them. And on the other side, the AIs will be stuck with useless units.

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Without a full rebalance, duds alone, especially with improvements to the AI, I think duds would eventually make torpedoes useless for the player, let alone the AI.

As it sounds like a new damage model is on the way, maybe it won't be that bad, but as said, torpedoes need a rebalance and a simple dud chance won't cut it, ESPECIALLY if there's no input.

 

It's ridiculous you can paint the ocean with torpedoes, sure, but it's also ridiculous that DDs can tank 24" torpedoes where as CLs are reliably one shot, or super BBs can literally ignore them.

Long story short torpedoes need consistency and duds are just a nerf.

 

Edited by slightlytreasonous
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Dud torpedoes are going to devalue destroyers? No, they are going to put them in the right place. Torpedoe attacks were hard to conduct but devastating with a bit of luck. What you want is the guarantee that any risk you undertake with destroyers will pay off all the time. Well, luckilly no more! 

Also sea state should also affect torpedo performance. 

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18 hours ago, Littorio said:

- Lastly, I would still like to see, and have been pushing for since the autumn, an overhaul to visual backgrounds/weather. This is crucial in it's own right for full immersion and for the game to make sense (penalties to accuracy for being in a "full gale" while the sky and sea look normal???). But, it is also a stepping stone on the path to the mythical spotting redo that we all want to see someday. How can we have a true naval wargame with barely any visual differentiation and no true weather?

The game already does not make sense with this "spotting" system. Seriously... Every time I get hit by a torpedo attack because a DD "pop" into existence at 6km going 33knts straight at my BC or BB battle line, I reset because that's just straight up fantasy. And if I have to rely on an "AI" that sometimes decides not to dodge the torpedoes while I have no control over how the ships in my battle line turn then it's just bad design.

I really don't understand how the game wants to be realistic while a 1910 destroyer can be hidden 6-7km away from a battleship line. Look, I do not have a degree in engineering but looking at this chart from Engineers' and Mechanics' Pocket-Book by Chas.H.Haswell (1851): DhZAdgI.jpeg

Clearly, people... smart people in 1840s and very much since people started to travel by boats knew you could see an object... tens of kilometers away given the right condition: clear sky, no overcast. 

In this game, a BB, my most recent case, a German BB masquerading as a BC using the latest 1910 German conning tower/superstructure, in morning, clear sky cannot see a RN destroyer until ~6km in. Look at this drawing of SMS Seydlitz 1920px-Seydlitz1916.png

using the scale on the picture, from the ship's waterline to the spotting top of the front superstructure, the position is ~30m (98.4ft) =~100ft from the water. Referencing the chart above, in good condition, you should be able to see up to 21.2 km (13.23 miles)!!!! And this is not taking in consideration the other ship's height.

The problem with the current gameplay for early time frame is that you cannot SEE where the enemy are or what they are up to unless you use a sacrificial lamb in form of some CL with 5.5 inches of armor so that they could live long enough (5.5-6 in allows 12 in AP round to overpen while HE can only slightly partial pen which is broken - taken from my most 2 recent campaigns) to give you info. And then with later technology, you don't even have to bother with this mechanic AT ALL. It's just frustrating to play with and the design is not even based on reality. Oh and the distance of 19in normal torpedo in 1910 is 6.1km. Thank god the RN only use fast torpedo at 4.1km else we would have stealth torpedo destroyers in 1910 in the middle of the day launching torpedo against a BB at 6.1km...

Certainly, you all you see this as absolutely ridiculous in any game that even touches the word realism/realistic.

@Nick Thomadis I know this is  going to take quite some effort but I would rather see one more, just one, change to the firing mechanic. Make it heavily based on the change of distance between the target and the shooter instead of what we currently have now. Make it so that my huge, tall ships can spot ship at realistic ranges but engaging them would requite my crew to acquire the the correct range and shots at 20km and beyond would require interwar tech. I want to be able to plan my attack going in, not hoping that my ship would "spot" an enemy in time in a naval strategy game.

 

18 hours ago, Littorio said:

- Naval Intelligence anyone? This should be a priority for campaign as it is, far more than simple "expansion." As it stands, test an intelligence system while the game is still relatively small, and uncomplicated. Expansion will just make it harder on the engine, more to keep track of. We need to be able to know what to build against, what vessels the enemy might have in which ports. This was crucial to naval warfare historically, and should be a top priority over simply making the game larger to appease Steam people dreaming of a world war...

Instead make the spotting/info part relegated to campaign/world map mechanics. My CL should be spotting enemy task forces... on the map... on the strategic level. Not spotting a DD 7km away from my BB while steaming like 3 km from it. Thank you for coming to my TEDTALK :P.

Edited by ColonelHenry
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8 hours ago, slightlytreasonous said:

Long story short torpedoes need consistency and duds are just a nerf.

 

They are currently consistent. Consistently OP. Duds alone are not making it, i would prefer;

- Tie their reliability at least to the crew skill and possibly other things, just like guns.

- Torpedo spam MUST end, 40+ launchers on basically every AI cruiser is ridiculous

- Permanent torp warning makers after being detected, they are very hard to see without them. And if you missed the first markers you won't even know they are there despite they are detected.

- I feel that guns are now so much more game than the torps that are just AI prosthesis. I would like to see "no torpedoes" mode check box which would prevent both AI and player to mount torp launchers on ships (possibly with the exception of TB and DD).

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I think spotting of ships and torps should be dependent on the crews skill, or at least modify the chances of. I would also like if all ships (AI and player) can ( and actually follow the command) to avoid torps (in their vicinity), with the time to react based on skill, and be automatic with player override possible (for those kamikaze runs, 'Dam the torpedo's' and all that).

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On 4/22/2022 at 1:26 PM, Nick Thomadis said:

New detailed Citadel: The damage model becomes upgraded with a far more detailed armoring system. The way you layout out your guns and funnels will affect the length of the citadel (the armored box covered by the main belt and deck) and you will be able to view it in the ship preview during the design process.

So it will be now fully realistic to create Nelson type ships which save weight due to the shortening of the armored citadel. Moreover, the hull weight and strength in each section will be dependent from the way you choose to layout your main guns as well as the center of its mass. For example, the sections in the middle will be significantly stronger and more resistant against damage than the lighter sections at the edges of the ship. Finally, you will be able to add an extra multi-layered armor in the citadel and choose independently its values according to the components enabled "All or Nothing", "Turtleback" etc.

So I'm assuming if I push my main guns from close to the superstructure to the ends of the ship, and lets say I have 8in of main belt armor and 4in of fore and aft belt, I would increase the weight of the ship because I'm creating a much larger citadel that carries heavier armor. (Said differently, If my ship was 100m long and The space between the foremost and aftmost main guns was increased from 60m to 80m, I now have an extra 20m of armor with 8in vs 4in armor so weight should go up, right?)

Overall, I love this change. Not only does it more accurately depict ships and give us more control over the design, but it penalizes me for making a giant "gun tub" with way more guns than would normally make any engineering sense. While fun, it's always felt like a bit of an exploit cramming 9 or 10 main gun turrets along the ship and nearly to the ends. This should dissuade that somewhat and give me a reason to build more reasonable ships.

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1 hour ago, Vanhal said:

- Torpedo spam MUST end, 40+ launchers on basically every AI cruiser is ridiculous

They should be a serious liability while still carrying torpedoes, exponentially increasing ammo det chance the more you have. This would make covering cruisers in torps far less tenable as they would go up like matchboxes from minor damage and balance out the insane firepower.

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Had a good example last night of why the coming changes to torpedoes will benefit the game. I had a BB avoiding a torp that was running beside it in same direction. I was zoomed in as close as possible to watch this. The torp came within the "BOX" of the ship at the tip of the bow, after passing from stern to bow and exploded. By the visuals the torp would not of hit and the angle of impact was like 85 degrees+. This new feature of duds and damage etc from angle of hit would of made the damage to my ship nothing or much less. Instead the ship took a major flood causing its effectiveness for the remainder of the battle to be much poorer. It was an ambush against 6 enemy DDs. After avoiding and running the timer down to under 10 min I was bombarded with a fury or torps and sunk. So, in conclusion, if this new torp damage system were in place the ship likely would be afloat after the battle. I look forward to this feature being added.

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2 hours ago, Vanhal said:

- Torpedo spam MUST end, 40+ launchers on basically every AI cruiser is ridiculous

This, I hate doing 1930+1940s campaigns just because the AI will deadass slap on 8x quintuple launchers per side on cruisers and they suffer next to nothing for it, there needs to be a hard limit imposed on the AI designer for torpedoes on cruisers, as well as taking so many an actual liability as it was historically.

Edited by Suts
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12 hours ago, Zuikaku said:

Dud torpedoes are going to devalue destroyers? No, they are going to put them in the right place. Torpedoe attacks were hard to conduct but devastating with a bit of luck. What you want is the guarantee that any risk you undertake with destroyers will pay off all the time. Well, luckilly no more! 

It's not just DDs that will have repercussions but right across the board like BBs, especially 1890 campaigns where torps are the most effective ship killers. Considering tech will be at its worst, battles are going to be somewhat like a marathon! 

 

There's another problem with duds - the perception that the AI is cheating.

If two battleships are facing off with torpedo's and some of your torps are duds but the AI torps hit's home, then the reaction by the player will be that the AI has cheated. No way around this.

It's already hard enough for admins and supporting players to convince players who think the AI is cheating that it's all by player design or lack off. Throw in dud randomization and it will be impossible. 

Duds in a performance designing game isn't going to past very well.

Edited by Skeksis
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Yeah...

I am tired about being literally unable to have any gunfight with any AI ship regardless of the ship classes involved or years.

Every campaign match finds my fleet facing 3-4 enemy ships with up to 18 torpedo launchers each, and very often, they fire them all simultaneously with incredible accuracy... so, in no time, my fleet's entire horizon is covered by 54-78 torpedo wave coming in a way so that I can not do anything to evade them with any of my ships.

Hopefully the situation will get better after the update! But I strongly believe AIs should start being encouraged to make a more limited and realistic use of torpedos, rather than filling even their Battleships with dozens of torpedo tubes.

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4 hours ago, Skeksis said:

There's another problem with duds - the perception that the AI is cheating.

If two battleships are facing off with torpedo's and some of your torps are duds but the AI torps hit's home, then the reaction by the player will be that the AI has cheated. No way around this.

It's already hard enough for admins and supporting players to convince players who think the AI is cheating that it's all by player design or lack off. Throw in dud randomization and it will be impossible. 

Duds in a performance designing game isn't going to past very well.

I somewhat agree with this if dud is just straight up a number that can only be affected by random tech advancement chance so if the AI "luck" out in terms of tech discovery, you are fked for no reason (at the start at least). Devs will only need to make slight changes to technology development to fix this.

I want torpedo duds, but most of all, I want to see them be at least 50% less accurate than they are now. Only Seasoned and Veteran skill crews should have like -10% of the current torpedo accuracy. Right now, they are ~90% accurate give or take if the ship does not turn which is absurd.

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7 hours ago, Skeksis said:

...

There's another problem with duds - the perception that the AI is cheating.

If two battleships are facing off with torpedo's and some of your torps are duds but the AI torps hit's home, then the reaction by the player will be that the AI has cheated. No way around this.

It's already hard enough for admins and supporting players to convince players who think the AI is cheating that it's all by player design or lack off. Throw in dud randomization and it will be impossible.

...

I hereby sentence theoretical complaining person to play 200 hours of X-COM.

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On 4/29/2022 at 2:03 AM, Gregg said:

So far using version 1.06 I've seen:

Is this a typo and you mean 1.05 or am i misssing something somewhere ?

steam beta at least still is on 1.05

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On 4/29/2022 at 4:20 PM, SPANISH_AVENGER said:

Every campaign match finds my fleet facing 3-4 enemy ships with up to 18 torpedo launchers each, and very often, they fire them all simultaneously with incredible accuracy... so, in no time, my fleet's entire horizon is covered by 54-78 torpedo wave coming in a way so that I can not do anything to evade them with any of my ships.

While I agree the torp spam is annoying and unrealistic, knowing that the AI will do this, you can take action to combat it. Your fleet screens become very, very important. If I charge my DDs close enough for them to be targeted and then get them running perpendicular to the enemy's bearing, I can "dupe" the enemy into dumping all their torps far ahead of my larger ships. The DDs also make lots of maneuvers and dodges, but I try to keep them running in a direction where a torp firing solution would be far away from my main fleet. At the same time, for safety, I tend to keep my larger ships changing directions rather frequently and fighting in smaller groups of 2-4 so I can continuously dodge torp attacks until the enemy has run out. Then I use my generally better armored and gunned ships to close in and batter the enemy. See my very crude drawing attached. Enemy heavy ships in red, enemy DDs in orange, my heavy ships in blue, my fleet screen in purple, enemy torpedo firing solutions in green. This is a a terrible diagram but it illustrates the point that of I can get the enemy to target my DDs, I can  keep them ahead and control where the torps go and then keep my main fleet away and back, looping around if necessary.

Again, I think something should be done about the absurd number of torps, but I wanted to offer my general tactic I've used to deal with it until then.

Screenshot_20220502-115006_Samsung Notes.jpg

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On 4/29/2022 at 6:23 AM, ColonelHenry said:

The game already does not make sense with this "spotting" system. Seriously... Every time I get hit by a torpedo attack because a DD "pop" into existence at 6km going 33knts straight at my BC or BB battle line, I reset because that's just straight up fantasy. And if I have to rely on an "AI" that sometimes decides not to dodge the torpedoes while I have no control over how the ships in my battle line turn then it's just bad design.

I really don't understand how the game wants to be realistic while a 1910 destroyer can be hidden 6-7km away from a battleship line. Look, I do not have a degree in engineering but looking at this chart from Engineers' and Mechanics' Pocket-Book by Chas.H.Haswell (1851): DhZAdgI.jpeg

Clearly, people... smart people in 1840s and very much since people started to travel by boats knew you could see an object... tens of kilometers away given the right condition: clear sky, no overcast. 

In this game, a BB, my most recent case, a German BB masquerading as a BC using the latest 1910 German conning tower/superstructure, in morning, clear sky cannot see a RN destroyer until ~6km in. Look at this drawing of SMS Seydlitz 1920px-Seydlitz1916.png

using the scale on the picture, from the ship's waterline to the spotting top of the front superstructure, the position is ~30m (98.4ft) =~100ft from the water. Referencing the chart above, in good condition, you should be able to see up to 21.2 km (13.23 miles)!!!! And this is not taking in consideration the other ship's height.

The problem with the current gameplay for early time frame is that you cannot SEE where the enemy are or what they are up to unless you use a sacrificial lamb in form of some CL with 5.5 inches of armor so that they could live long enough (5.5-6 in allows 12 in AP round to overpen while HE can only slightly partial pen which is broken - taken from my most 2 recent campaigns) to give you info. And then with later technology, you don't even have to bother with this mechanic AT ALL. It's just frustrating to play with and the design is not even based on reality. Oh and the distance of 19in normal torpedo in 1910 is 6.1km. Thank god the RN only use fast torpedo at 4.1km else we would have stealth torpedo destroyers in 1910 in the middle of the day launching torpedo against a BB at 6.1km...

Certainly, you all you see this as absolutely ridiculous in any game that even touches the word realism/realistic.

@Nick Thomadis I know this is  going to take quite some effort but I would rather see one more, just one, change to the firing mechanic. Make it heavily based on the change of distance between the target and the shooter instead of what we currently have now. Make it so that my huge, tall ships can spot ship at realistic ranges but engaging them would requite my crew to acquire the the correct range and shots at 20km and beyond would require interwar tech. I want to be able to plan my attack going in, not hoping that my ship would "spot" an enemy in time in a naval strategy game.

 

Instead make the spotting/info part relegated to campaign/world map mechanics. My CL should be spotting enemy task forces... on the map... on the strategic level. Not spotting a DD 7km away from my BB while steaming like 3 km from it. Thank you for coming to my TEDTALK :P.

I agree about spotting on the campaign map. I have brought it up several times before. I can't find the most succinct one, but here is stuff from 1.0 feedback:

We really should have the ability to see "smoke" on the map, and then need to investigate and ID the contact on the battle map.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Iuvenalis said:

While I agree the torp spam is annoying and unrealistic, knowing that the AI will do this, you can take action to combat it. Your fleet screens become very, very important. If I charge my DDs close enough for them to be targeted and then get them running perpendicular to the enemy's bearing, I can "dupe" the enemy into dumping all their torps far ahead of my larger ships. The DDs also make lots of maneuvers and dodges, but I try to keep them running in a direction where a torp firing solution would be far away from my main fleet. At the same time, for safety, I tend to keep my larger ships changing directions rather frequently and fighting in smaller groups of 2-4 so I can continuously dodge torp attacks until the enemy has run out. Then I use my generally better armored and gunned ships to close in and batter the enemy. See my very crude drawing attached. Enemy heavy ships in red, enemy DDs in orange, my heavy ships in blue, my fleet screen in purple, enemy torpedo firing solutions in green. This is a a terrible diagram but it illustrates the point that of I can get the enemy to target my DDs, I can  keep them ahead and control where the torps go and then keep my main fleet away and back, looping around if necessary.

Again, I think something should be done about the absurd number of torps, but I wanted to offer my general tactic I've used to deal with it until then.

Screenshot_20220502-115006_Samsung Notes.jpg

I get your point, but i have been consistently unable to deal with torpedoes in encounters bigger than few ships. It is actually the exact reason why i never fight the bigger battles and now that i think of it, all my ships are build SOLELY to withstand the torpedoes. Which is a very bad sign where one trick by AI dominate the game so much.

And the screen etc. won't work anyway because we do not have any fleet formations organization right now, hell we can't even control our ships not getting back randomly to ports. Not to mention no formation will save you anyway from 100+ torpedoes in dense salvoes. And finally, it's not the DD's that are the biggest problem, worst are CRUISERS packed with torps, and torps in general being way more reliable and way less influenced by everything than guns.

Edited by Vanhal
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  • Nick Thomadis changed the title to What's coming next (v1.06) *UPDATE 28/5/2022*
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