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Brigand

V.O.C. Ship Amsterdam - A call for help

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The East Indiaman Amsterdam, one of the proud Transom Returns Ships, build in 1748, as ordered by the Chamber of Amsterdam, one of the six Chambers of the Dutch East India Company, has made it to the top of the poll Player-selected ships 2015.
 
It is hard to get solid data on the original ship. So far I've been able to find the following:
 
Type: East Indiaman,
Length: 160 feet,
Burthen: 575 last (1150 ton),
Complement: 333 men,
Armament: 42 Cannons (8 x 12pdr, 16 x 8pdr, 8 x 4pdr, 10 swivel guns).
 
The Amsterdam was build under supervision of master carpenter Willem Theunisse Blok, according to the design made by shipwright Charles Bentam in 1742. She was the 20th ship build of this type.

 

 
But... we are still missing her original plans!

 
In absence of the plans, she will be modelled using the plans for the indiaman as drawn by Chapman (as mentioned by admin), which is an English Indiaman.
 

Therefore, this call for help!
Is there anyone (I'm looking at you Dutchies) who can provide us with a copy of the original (not the replica) building plans for the Amsterdam? They should be available in one of the Dutch archives, either the Rijksmuseum or the Scheepvaartmuseum would be my guess.
 
(It would be a shame if the first Dutch ship to make it into the game would turn out to be a generic English indiaman, designed by a Swede.)
 
Cheers,
Brigand

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it would be nice to have some dutch ships in the game. i will play them for sure, because France is not the only underdog nation in the game :D

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Someone here on NA posted some plans before, imme check around in the shipyard

 

edit: ok thats bad luck the one he posted is the english indiaman :wacko:

 

This is only image we have and I guess what is needed is pictures of sail plan too

 

Amsterdam1.jpg

 

 

Double Edit: Does the Amsterdam use the same plan as the Retourschip?

Edited by OTMatt

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Scans cost from a range of €20 up to €110:

http://www.hetscheepvaartmuseum.nl/kenniscentrum/tarieven

EDIT: technical drawing may be only €4,- per scan + €15 administration costs (once). Everything is digitally scanned and delivered.

 

Not sure if the library is accessable without having to buy a ticket to the museum though. I live in Amsterdam, biking distance from the museum, but I'm fairly low on cash right now unfortunately :( So I would not be able to finance this out of my own pockets at the current moment.

 

I can give them a call tomorrow and see what I can find out.

http://www.hetscheepvaartmuseum.nl/kenniscentrum/bibliotheek|openingstijden

Edited by Wicked Mouse
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Someone here on NA posted some plans before, imme check around in the shipyard

 

edit: ok thats bad luck the one he posted is the english indiaman :wacko:

 

This is only image we have and I guess what is needed is pictures of sail plan too

 

Amsterdam1.jpg

 

 

Double Edit: Does the Amsterdam use the same plan as the Retourschip?

Retourschip(Returnship) is another name for ostindienfahrer or Eastindiaman delivering goods from and to colonies.

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Ok thanks well maybe these might be the plans, its a Retourschip design in 1742 by Charles Bentham on pages 75-82 including sail plan. Its probably better if Wicked Mouse went to the Museum though. :)

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDUQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fessay.utwente.nl%2F66547%2F1%2FJong%2C%2520Johan%2520de%2520-%2520S0076759%2520-%2520Thesis%2520WWTS.pdf&ei=5TriVPTcGIGYgwTd5IKgDQ&usg=AFQjCNHK8QJefhzwt3fvyCJss_4qpjje6Q&sig2=u0psCUn-HtbH77mErNUKcQ&bvm=bv.85970519,d.eXY&cad=rja

Edited by OTMatt

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Searching on the digital library MaritiemDigitaal I find a few entries, without pictures though, telling there are a few sketches and drawings (Oostindiëvaarder 'Amsterdam' is East Indiaman 'Amsterdam'). Cannot tell what the quality will be though, as it's also for the construction of the replica. I might have to make an appointment to see them. But since these drawings are modern, it may be less hassle than if they were real 18th century drawings.

 

Nevertheless I'll call tomorrow and see what I can find out.

Edited by Wicked Mouse

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Why would someone list a ship for a vote with no plans available yet? <_< I will begin my search...

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Thanks! I might be able to use this info too :)

 

Here's an other picture of that 150ft model: http://www.maritiemdigitaal.nl/index.cfm?event=search.getdetail&id=137000007

Comparing that model to the replica it shows quite some resemblance! So most likely the replica was built after this model/drawing.

Edited by Wicked Mouse

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Someone should PM modernknight1

 

Dutch ships are his area of expertise.

 

Then again, he never answered the one PM I sent him.

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Someone should PM modernknight1

 

Dutch ships are his area of expertise.

 

Then again, he never answered the one PM I sent him.

He doesn't like you.

I don't like you either. You just watch yourself. We're wanted men. I have the death sentence on twelve systems!

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Ah the library is only open, and thus qualified people to ask pesky questions to, on thursday. So I'll try again then.

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I did see this website: http://www.vocschip-amsterdam.org/site/main.html

 

If you scroll to the point on the timeline that says 1749-1808 'De Amsterdam zinkt weg en word vergeten' (something like 'Submergence of the Amsterdam as it gets forgotten') and pick the second line 'Het schip blijft achter' there is a drawing of the ship. Not sure if it's is of any use here though.

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i''m going to visit the netherlands around 15-16th of may maybe i can talk to some of the museum.

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i''m going to visit the netherlands around 15-16th of may maybe i can talk to some of the museum.

 

You could of course visit the Nautical Museum in Amsterdam, but I have to warn you. While it used to be an excellent museum, the are now a 'modern style' museum, which means that they did their utmost best to please the masses and cater to children with the attention span of a rubber duck. They choose to do this because the government funding has been cut drastically and the typical attitude to museums is that if they cannot generate enough money to cater for themselves, they are obviously not adding enough to the market. So, as a result, much of the excellent collection has been moved to the depot. The roofed over courtyard is beautiful though (and can be visited without paying the entrance fee).

 

Cheers,

Brigand

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Why would someone list a ship for a vote with no plans available yet? <_< I will begin my search...

 

Ladys and genltemen please take a step back !

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maybe the ones of the batavia shipyard are more friendly or useable

 

The Batavia shipyard is more than worth a visit. It is a great place where they do things the historically accurate way as much as possible. You won't be disappointed spending a day there.

 

Cheers,

Brigand

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The Batavia shipyard is more than worth a visit. It is a great place where they do things the historically accurate way as much as possible. You won't be disappointed spending a day there.

 

Cheers,

Brigand

 

Tbh, I would love to see them (well, anyone) build a lineship replica with modern tools, just so that the thing is at least done within a foreseeable amount of time. The Batavia yard is currently rebuilding the 7 Provinciën, but that was a big ship and it's gonna take a loooong time with their small workforce and strict adhering to oldskool methods. 

 

One can still go oldskool methods with smaller ships, going oldskool on a SoL seems a very ambitious project. 

 

 

It would just be awesome to see a proper authentic SoL replica sailing, regardless of how it was made. 

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Why would someone list a ship for a vote with no plans available yet? <_< I will begin my search...

I explained a couple times in the poll thread why I submtted the Amsterdam. I wanted a large merchant of more than 40 guns, which didn't necessarily need to be the Amsterdam so much as a representation of a generic Indiaman. The replica I felt spoke there were plans somewhere, but personally I'd be just as happy with the Chapman model so long as the guns are there. The devs could have tossed it out of the poll. They didn't. As the results show, there was a lot of interest in a large merchant, and some just wanted a Dutch ship. I'm sorry for the latter folk if it doesn't work out that way.

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I explained a couple times in the poll thread why I submtted the Amsterdam. I wanted a large merchant of more than 40 guns, which didn't necessarily need to be the Amsterdam so much as a representation of a generic Indiaman. The replica I felt spoke there were plans somewhere, but personally I'd be just as happy with the Chapman model so long as the guns are there. The devs could have tossed it out of the poll. They didn't. As the results show, there was a lot of interest in a large merchant, and some just wanted a Dutch ship. I'm sorry for the latter folk if it doesn't work out that way.

 

Someone needs to fund the Wicked Mouse or Mirones for the plans. :D

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I can talk to the folks of the library tomorrow :) Fingers crossed they have what is needed at least. Donno about the costs though.

Edited by Wicked Mouse

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I've talked to the conservator Elisabeth Spits of the technical drawings in the library of het Scheepvaartmuseum (Maritime museum) in Amsterdam, and she told me that the only original drawing they have is the one mentioned above, the one that can be found in that thesis on page 75. I think the devs have that one in high resolution already? Maybe a dev can reply and give their input? :)

 

However I can, if needed head over there and visit the library on thursdays to look at all the drawings that are made for the replica that's outside the museum. Miss/Mrs. Spits told me that the replica has been made from the limited resources they have, such as that one drawing mentioned earlier, and the model with the ship camels that C.H. Bentam brought/made to show his design, that's been kept at the Rijksmuseum. The drawings of the replica involve steel constructions to keep it how and where it currently is. So not everthing there would apply to the original.

 

So my question to the devs is: what do you need (if anything) from het Scheepvaartmuseum?

- Any drawings from the replica, including sail plans, etc.?

- technical drawing from a 'warship' from Bentam with 42 cannons?

- technical drawing from warship "Westerdijkshorn", 52 cannons or one of 50 cannons?

- technical drawing of warships "Hector" and "Amazoon"?

- technical drawing of warship "Maarsen", 44 cannons?

 

Since they haven't been scanned and put on the site (yet) I will have to go over there and look at the microfilm they have been put on.

Each scan is €4,- plus once an administrative cost of €15,-

Edited by Wicked Mouse

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aint it easier to get the pans of: the prins willem or the 7 provincieën? the look better anyway in my opinion

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aint it easier to get the pans of: the prins willem or the 7 provincieën? the look better anyway in my opinion

The Amsterdam won the poll, so the majority of people on these forums (or at least the part that cared to cast their votes) was of the opinion that the Amsterdam was more interesting than either the 7 Provincieën or Prins Willem.

~Brigand

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