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9 hours ago, Cpt.Hissy said:

You're supposed to MAYBE build a Bismarck or two, if you're lucky and successful enough during the main part of the game, and go roflstomp those who didn't. Or be bismarck'ed yourself in other case.
 

40% of hulls ingame are larger than Bismark, some almost 2 times as heavy. We're expected to build several bismarks and even some surpassing Yamato.

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3 hours ago, Evil4Zerggin said:

I hope there will be a difficulty option to give the AI an increased budget multiplier. This will at least give a simple brute-force way of compensating for any AI weaknesses, even if not ideal.

Simple AI stat buffs is a terrible idea and is the single largest ruiner of immersion a game can have.

Why should AI Austria Hungary have more budget than Great Britain in its prime for example?

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56 minutes ago, ThatZenoGuy said:

Simple AI stat buffs is a terrible idea and is the single largest ruiner of immersion a game can have.

Why should AI Austria Hungary have more budget than Great Britain in its prime for example?

 

AI is already making ships with 15x508mm guns either way...

I would just make the enemy ships myself at this point rather than trusting this AI to make minimally grounded ships xD

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2 hours ago, SPANISH_AVENGER said:

 

AI is already making ships with 15x508mm guns either way...

I would just make the enemy ships myself at this point rather than trusting this AI to make minimally grounded ships xD

Sure, but we have just as much ability without artificial debuffs and such. 

The hypothetical AI buffs being discussed would flat out make some things make zero sense, like Russia building superior ships to Japan...Well...Any year.

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I'm only suggesting this because as it stands, I don't think the AI stands any chance at all against a determined human opponent in anything approaching even resources on both sides. The ship stat mechanics are less... constrained... than Rule the Waves, in ways that hurt the AI (cf. frankenships) and help the player. Would I prefer that AI shipbuilding be improved and the stat mechanics be ironed out so that budget modifiers aren't necessary for a challenge? Of course. But given observed development capacity I'm not counting on that. Especially given that the addition of campaign mechanics are as likely to widen the AI disadvantage as it is to narrow it.

But I guess as long as there is at least a historical budget setting there's always the option of picking the weakest country and taking it as far as possible. Let us hope that AI Great Britain or USA can at least put up a fight against human Austria-Hungary or Spain...

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34 minutes ago, Danvanthevacuumman said:

I hope there are diferent strategies you have to employ through the years of technological advancements instead of buffing ships being longer ranmged more armoureed and faster. ofc this is me assuming naval warfare changed throughout the years

In a nutshell...
Pre-WW1: Use big secondary batteries because your main guns, while powerful, fire slowly and inaccurately. Use the smaller guns to pummel their superstructures into dust and set fires
WW1: Use a standardized gun size main battery with some hefty secondaries although nowhere near as many secondaries as the older ships. Optimize your ships to be slow and armored, or faster and more fragile depending on doctrine.
WW2: Only have enough secondaries to scare off destroyers, focus on the biggest, baddest, longest ranged guns you can get and focus more on deck armor due to plunging fire. 

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6 hours ago, ThatZenoGuy said:

In a nutshell...
Pre-WW1: Use big secondary batteries because your main guns, while powerful, fire slowly and inaccurately. Use the smaller guns to pummel their superstructures into dust and set fires
WW1: Use a standardized gun size main battery with some hefty secondaries although nowhere near as many secondaries as the older ships. Optimize your ships to be slow and armored, or faster and more fragile depending on doctrine.
WW2: Only have enough secondaries to scare off destroyers, focus on the biggest, baddest, longest ranged guns you can get and focus more on deck armor due to plunging fire. 

You can't stop me from putting as many 2" guns to simulate AA guns. I shall defy the rules! I shall rule the... I mean... Become the ultimate admiral!

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4 minutes ago, DerRichtigeArzt said:

You can't stop me from putting as many 2" guns to simulate AA guns. I shall defy the rules! I shall rule the... I mean... Become the ultimate admiral!

50mm flak kinda makes sense, the Germans had such caliber weapons.

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Hello Admirals! I've returned from the land where the last dreadnought is located. I see the patch is still not out but I'm not worried. Let's just hope the Devs put much work into it to make worth while. By the way this picture is how I see the A.I in this game. Funny and retarded.

Best Doctor Lalve GIFs | Gfycat

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4 hours ago, CapnAvont1015 said:

Hello Admirals! I've returned from the land where the last dreadnought is located. I see the patch is still not out but I'm not worried. Let's just hope the Devs put much work into it to make worth while. By the way this picture is how I see the A.I in this game. Funny and retarded.

Best Doctor Lalve GIFs | Gfycat

 

The worst thing is to think about all the limitations the ship designer has for the players because "it has to be kept simple so that the AI can work with it", when even then the... "special" AI keeps making 15x508mm clown cars with 40 secondaries of 6 different calibers but no armor whatsoever, for example. It's been a while since I've seen a minimally grounded and balanced AI ship...

 

I wonder why can't they just give us a more detailed ship designer, closer to what has always been advertised, and give the AI a simple variant it can manage better.

Edited by SPANISH_AVENGER
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3 minutes ago, SPANISH_AVENGER said:

 

The worst thing is to think about all the limitations the ship designer has because "it has to be kept simple so that the AI can work with it", when even then the... "special" AI keeps making 15x508mm clown cars with 40 secondaries of 6 different calibers but no armor whatsoever, for example. It's been a while since I've seen a minimally grounded and balanced AI ship...

Your right. Through out the time I've played this game the A.I makes up three types of designs.

  1. The Super Heavy- These types of ships are nearly impossible to sink. Seriously have ya'll tried sinking a BB with a 25inch belt with 15inch guns? It's hard and frustrating because you don't the the specs of the ship in custom and academy. These ships make fights drag out longer than needed and can quickly make the fight boring.
  2. The Glass Cannon-  The more common of the three. These ships have basically no armor except on their turrets and plenty of guns. However if you have a well designed ship for example a Bismarck they will be a push-over. Especially if you have super heavy shells on your ship. One clean shot near they're side-armor and they are mostly likely going to blow up or take massive damage to the point they become useless.
  3. The Balanced- These ships are rarer than the first two but when they appear they are fun to fight against. They actually manage to balance out their guns, armor and equipment. These ships put up a tough fight especially when the A.I decides to work properly. The downside of these ships is that they are rare but still fun to fight.

So that's my list, what do you guys think? Make any changes ya'll want it, I don't mind I would like to hear ya'll opinions.

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1 minute ago, CapnAvont1015 said:

Your right. Through out the time I've played this game the A.I makes up three types of designs.

  1. The Super Heavy- These types of ships are nearly impossible to sink. Seriously have ya'll tried sinking a BB with a 25inch belt with 15inch guns? It's hard and frustrating because you don't the the specs of the ship in custom and academy. These ships make fights drag out longer than needed and can quickly make the fight boring.
  2. The Glass Cannon-  The more common of the three. These ships have basically no armor except on their turrets and plenty of guns. However if you have a well designed ship for example a Bismarck they will be a push-over. Especially if you have super heavy shells on your ship. One clean shot near they're side-armor and they are mostly likely going to blow up or take massive damage to the point they become useless.
  3. The Balanced- These ships are rarer than the first two but when they appear they are fun to fight against. They actually manage to balance out their guns, armor and equipment. These ships put up a tough fight especially when the A.I decides to work properly. The downside of these ships is that they are rare but still fun to fight.

So that's my list, what do you guys think? Make any changes ya'll want it, I don't mind I would like to hear ya'll opinions.

 

Good analysis, completely agree! I have seen balanced and grounded ships a couple of times... I wish it was the norm. They are the fun ones.

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9 minutes ago, SPANISH_AVENGER said:

 

Good analysis, completely agree! I have seen balanced and grounded ships a couple of times... I wish it was the norm. They are the fun ones.

Yeah but some funny ships can be balanced. I'll never forget the time I fought a French-Nelson Battleship. It was funny and a fun fight.

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1 hour ago, CapnAvont1015 said:

Your right. Through out the time I've played this game the A.I makes up three types of designs.

  1. The Super Heavy- These types of ships are nearly impossible to sink. Seriously have ya'll tried sinking a BB with a 25inch belt with 15inch guns? It's hard and frustrating because you don't the the specs of the ship in custom and academy. These ships make fights drag out longer than needed and can quickly make the fight boring.
  2. The Glass Cannon-  The more common of the three. These ships have basically no armor except on their turrets and plenty of guns. However if you have a well designed ship for example a Bismarck they will be a push-over. Especially if you have super heavy shells on your ship. One clean shot near they're side-armor and they are mostly likely going to blow up or take massive damage to the point they become useless.
  3. The Balanced- These ships are rarer than the first two but when they appear they are fun to fight against. They actually manage to balance out their guns, armor and equipment. These ships put up a tough fight especially when the A.I decides to work properly. The downside of these ships is that they are rare but still fun to fight.

So that's my list, what do you guys think? Make any changes ya'll want it, I don't mind I would like to hear ya'll opinions.

I think the key to understanding if the AI-builds is on par is observing Academy Missions. Here, the missions have a base criteria/tech to build from. And these are mostly built/scaled correctly to within each mission criteria, i.e. no mission is unplayable. 

Other than the year, Custom Battles have a random base criteria/tech, so it's more prone to produce off the scale variations.

Whereas in the campaign, nations should have a similar base criteria to build from and the designs should be scaled accordingly.  

One of my theories is that Academy Missions 'mission' is to test the AI as it works under criteria's, hence the focus on late era since it has the most variations and the need for most fine tuning. Plus a few missions placed along the timeframe aswell.

Like Academy Missions, campaign built ships should be on par. With the exception of unforeseen issues (and/or known issues!).

Edited by Skeksis
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On 8/31/2021 at 7:55 AM, ThatZenoGuy said:

The hypothetical AI buffs being discussed would flat out make some things make zero sense, like Russia building superior ships to Japan...Well...Any year.

Destroyer Novik and Co was best in class worldwide, not just "better than the Japanese." The problem with Russian shipbuilding was that the ships often built on the basis of the wrong ideas, the result was unsatisfactory. I'm talking about Aurora and Peresvet classes in the Russian-Japanese war, as well as the Svetlana, Sevastopol and Borodino classes in the First World War.

So yes, there is nothing wrong with AI Russia building strong ships. However, historically, Imperial Russia has always built ships longer and more expensive than all other countries, except maybe Spain.

On 8/31/2021 at 8:40 AM, Evil4Zerggin said:

Let us hope that AI Great Britain or USA can at least put up a fight against human Austria-Hungary or Spain...

I think China will be more difficult than Austria-Hungary. Austria-Hungary had a stronger industry than Russian, or Italian. Their technology was also better than Italian, Russian and Spanish. In fact, the funding problem was the only problem for the Austro-Hungarian fleet.  And since the player will be able to increase the size of the budget over time, obviously this will be a problem mainly in the early period of the game.

The AHE admirals had a few tricks to get around low budget, and for this reason, warships of the AHE have been carefully designed and as a result - cheap, high quality and strong for their displacement. Of course, this happened until the Hungarians were allowed to build BB Szent István 😕

Edited by TAKTCOM
WAR FOR IMPROVEMENT
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2 hours ago, TAKTCOM said:

Destroyer Novik and Co was best in class worldwide, not just "better than the Japanese." The problem with Russian shipbuilding was that the ships often built on the basis of the wrong ideas, the result was unsatisfactory. I'm talking about Aurora and Peresvet classes in the Russian-Japanese war, as well as the Svetlana, Sevastopol and Borodino classes in the First World War.

So yes, there is nothing wrong with AI Russia building strong ships. However, historically, Imperial Russia has always built ships longer and more expensive than all other countries, except maybe Spain.

Wow, Russia acomplished building a competent ship of the smallest and most simple class in modern warfare, and they did so by merely upscaling the damned thing by 2x normal size. Hold the presses. Sounds like some Russian propaganda to me anyways, Russia got stomped so hard in Tsushima before that they remain salty about it today.

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15 minutes ago, ThatZenoGuy said:

Wow, Russia acomplished building a competent ship of the smallest and most simple class in modern warfare, and they did so by merely upscaling the damned thing by 2x normal size. Hold the presses. Sounds like some Russian propaganda to me anyways, Russia got stomped so hard in Tsushima before that they remain salty about it today.

It was a really funny comment. Somehow, it is entirely delusional. You may say some realy unpleasant things about Novik and Russia shipbuilding, but you did not, because for this you need to know at least something about the Russian fleet. Except anti-Russian propaganda. Which you obviously aren't doing. I will not write walls of text, I will just say that

...Novik was one of the best ships of the type during the First World War. Novik -class ships were the first destroyers to be powered by oil instead of coal. When first commissioned she was the fastest ship in the world...(с)from English Wikipedia.

English. No Russian😄

 

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Nah, main problem of Russian navy, just like with Russian everything, was unreasonably limited budgets, terrible organisation and idiot leaders.

That's why Tsushima fleet was rag-tag band of random ships built to outdated ideas, then arrived into battle exhausted and untrained.

Russian dreadnoughts might be amongst the best of their class, if they weren't finished when their class was already a history. They still might be a serious treat even then, as individual ships in vacuum, but sea superiority is achieved not by singular ships.

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3 hours ago, TAKTCOM said:

It was a really funny comment. Somehow, it is entirely delusional. You may say some realy unpleasant things about Novik and Russia shipbuilding, but you did not, because for this you need to know at least something about the Russian fleet. Except anti-Russian propaganda. Which you obviously aren't doing. I will not write walls of text, I will just say that

...Novik was one of the best ships of the type during the First World War. Novik -class ships were the first destroyers to be powered by oil instead of coal. When first commissioned she was the fastest ship in the world...(с)from English Wikipedia.

English. No Russian😄

 

Citing wikipedia is comical, could you find literally any other website? Hell I'd accept a personal speech from Putin himself over Wikipedia in current year.

Not my fault that Russia failed as a military for so long they effectively only won their most recent conflicts by being absolutely gigantic. They were afraid of Japan! An effectively third world nation until post-war democratic Japan lmao.

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In my opinion wikipedia is fine. In my university we often use it because most of the time it is reliable. 

Also there was a russian protected cruiser, Cruiser Askold which was a very advanced ship when she was constructed. She was a very fast protected cruiser with a unique look, and she also had an active career. 

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