>>>Alpha-12 Feedback (v86 3/6/2021)<<<

[Elrerune The Honorbound]

25 minutes ago, dowdpride said:

Jesus there are Nazis on the forum now? Where are the mods, sleeping?

Just because you disagree with an another's viewpoint doesn't mean someone is a Nazi.
 

12 minutes ago, Cptbarney said:

Also you can't really complain when you started it in the first place with an unneeded comment about how you purposely set up battles with one side having better tech than the other.

That was my reply regarding to the game and comments that people made regarding the game.

 

12 minutes ago, Cptbarney said:

Then saying germany should get buffs and random things about the moon.

Facts about German technology quality. And yes they should get a bonus in game because of that.

 

12 minutes ago, Cptbarney said:

We are, but if you want to de-rail a thread be prepared for people to give you lip about it. If you don't like it, dont post it simple.

As I said, please don't use my opinions and viewpoints as an excuse to de-rail and blame me for it.

 

25 minutes ago, dowdpride said:

Jesus

By the way please leave Jesus in peace in any of his his supposed resting places.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Elrerune The Honorbound

[dowdpride]

you have an anime SS girl as your profile pic, claim that the only reason people have a bad view of WW2 Germany is because of American and British propaganda, and have a serious/delusional overestimation towards the quality of German equipment. as they say, if it walks like a duck and honks like a duck, its probably a duck.

[Elrerune The Honorbound]

12 minutes ago, dowdpride said:

you have an anime SS girl as your profile pic, claim that the only reason people have a bad view of WW2 Germany is because of American and British propaganda, and have a serious/delusional overestimation towards the quality of German equipment. as they say, if it walks like a duck and honks like a duck, its probably a duck.

Just because you disagree with an another's viewpoint doesn't mean someone is a Nazi.

Take it to the admins if you have something against it. There are users who have real Nazi servicemen on their avatars and names and users with real flags that are banned in Germany.

My avatar has nothing to do with any of that. Refer to my comment here.

Regarding what you said that I have "serious/delusional overestimation towards the quality of German equipment" refer to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

Edited June 22, 2021 by Elrerune The Honorbound

[SiWi]

late to the party but a couple of "Highlights".

 

German ships suppose superiority:

While germany did have good ship designs at times, it is worth pointing out that the famous Bismarck knocked its own radar out... so there were defiantly flawed to say the least. In WW1, Germany did not have the best BB's, that would have been the Queen Elisabeths thou better battlecruisers.

In WW2, its DD's were bad, its light cruiser easy targets and BB's it barley had any and of those 2 where equipped with guns only worth fighting cruisers. 

So in terms of surface ships there isn't that much to write home about. 

And didn't Hitler want to scrap the surface fleet after the Battle of Barents sea? Because 2 heavy cruisers couldn't beat a couple of DD#s or light cruisers? So much for good range finding...

 

As for the "Conquered much of Europe":

well most of Europe is connected through land. where it isn't germany had a hard time or didn't mange it. Funny thou most of that was done with rather inferior technology, instead of superior technology.

It is a joke in the german tank history, that the biggest success of german tanks were archive when they were the worst.

 

And finally the attempt to blame "allied propaganda":

As others have pointed out, with Harder a loser of history wrote the US history of the ostfront. And there is plenty of "lost myth" and "lost victories" to go around to disprove the notion that "history is written by the winners".

I would add the "Varus battle" thou. Just because it is the hilarious case where we know about the battle exclusively by the loser.

Edited June 22, 2021 by SiWi

[Danvanthevacuumman]

I'm a true Italia fascist. Also im an imperialist of the true eastern asianic empire. Gloria Humana Gloria Deus Civilis

[Tousansons]

[Intrepid_Arty]

3 hours ago, Elrerune The Honorbound said:

Just because you disagree with an another's viewpoint doesn't mean someone is a Nazi.

Take it to the admins if you have something against it. There are users who have real Nazi servicemen on their avatars and names and users with real flags that are banned in Germany.

My avatar has nothing to do with any of that. Refer to my comment here.

Regarding what you said that I have "serious/delusional overestimation towards the quality of German equipment" refer to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

Lmao, nah, the nazi ships were frankly pretty trash. Like, take the much-admired Bismarck-class. You get a similar displacement to the Littorios for what exactly? Less armor, one less gun, and the same speed? the destroyers were top-heavy, the cruisers had significant stability issues or similar efficiency issues to the battleships, depending on the exact class in question. The only decent ships were the Scharnhorst-class, which were fairly small, and the submarines, which aren't represented at all in this game. As for Imperial Germany, well, they were on approximately the same technological level as the British, so still wouldn't have any advantage. 

Editing this to point out that the evidence you use of German technical superiority are Wernher von Braun, who had nothing to do with warships, and Operation Paperclip, which, again, was not focused on German naval  technology. This is a game about ships. Not about rocket design. And even with rockets, von Braun took significant amounts of his knowledge from the works of Dr. Goddard of the USA.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Intrepid_Arty

[DerRichtigeArzt]

8 hours ago, Elrerune The Honorbound said:

No need. History teaches me everything. I do not need to learn from those who constantly try to rewrite history.

Another way to put it is “History is Written by Victors.” and that's the version of history I definitely have no intention of doing homework on.

German equipment was faulty and unreliable. Bismarck's guns destroyed its own radar because of bad shock insulation. 

German radar itself was so much inferior to the British one that the brits could just stay out of range of any german ship and pummel it. 

Technology was so expensive and complicated that germans never could afford enaugh of anything sophisticated. All that talk about how wermaht was all motorised is german propaganda. 

I will grant you that for most of the war they had superior steel but they got outmatched by Americans and the cowboys still wear the crown of the best steel industry in the world. 

You can't argue eith facts, if germany was so superior to everyone else they would have won the war. But they were inferior warriors and they have met thier deserved end. 

[MrStan53]

1 hour ago, Intrepid_Arty said:

Lmao, nah, the nazi ships were frankly pretty trash. Like, take the much-admired Bismarck-class. You get a similar displacement to the Littorios for what exactly? Less armor, one less gun, and the same speed? the destroyers were top-heavy, the cruisers had significant stability issues or similar efficiency issues to the battleships, depending on the exact class in question. The only decent ships were the Scharnhorst-class, which were fairly small, and the submarines, which aren't represented at all in this game. As for Imperial Germany, well, they were on approximately the same technological level as the British, so still wouldn't have any advantage. 

Editing this to point out that the evidence you use of German technical superiority are Wernher von Braun, who had nothing to do with warships, and Operation Paperclip, which, again, was not focused on German naval  technology. This is a game about ships. Not about rocket design. And even with rockets, von Braun took significant amounts of his knowledge from the works of Dr. Goddard of the USA.

Absolutely this, it's not even controversial to say that German naval technology was horribly obsolete by the second world war. Frankly it's not even Germany's fault their designs were outdated either. After the first world war, most modern German warships were taken as war prizes and the Germans were simply unable to test their existing building practices and schematics. Contrast this with the allies who, after being forced to scrap vast portions of their navy, often shot their own hulks (and the captured German ones) to pieces to see how they would fare, as well as stresstesting their existing designs. Meanwhile Germany was stuck with their worst ships and with all of their experimental equipment stripped from them. By the time of the 30s when countries began to rearm, the allied nations had come to the realization practices like heavily turtlebacked armor were outdated, and a lot of their older gun technology (ironically not bag guns) were obsolete and moved to more advanced weapon systems, improved engines, and all or nothing armor schemes. Contrast this with the Germans who often built their ships using design philosophies more in line with their first world war predecessors. German designs were definitely capable, but even Bismarck herself was comparable in most respects to HMS Hood - a ship commissioned directly after the Great War. Dumb Wehraboo is dumb

Edited June 22, 2021 by MrStan53

[HistoricalAccuracyMan]

Not trying to further this firestorm, but here is something else to chew on:

If you think Germany should get technology buffs because they were supposedly "superior" to everything on earth during WWII, should they be limited to no carriers (if carriers are ever implemented) since they never completed the Graf Zepplin? No ships bigger than Bismarck and Tirpitz since the H-Class was never built? Should they have a cap to how many ships they can build since their entire navy was comparably small to the US, UK and Japanese navies?

If you are going to advocate for historical factors impacting gameplay, you have to look at the whole picture...not just what you want to see or what is a "positive" aspect/factor.

[Elrerune The Honorbound]

Amazing and great opinions guys. Really nice talking with you. Hmm, some of you seem quite hostile, I'm not sure why. I guess all that's left to say is - I'm a Croat. So I'm not a traitor and weakling like the Germans are. So my viewpoints and determination are never shaken. You guys are well educated so you surely know all about it. 

But I forgot to say British naval technology was the worst trash and obsolete. Why was is it good at all just because it was British? Certainly not.

Edited June 23, 2021 by Elrerune The Honorbound

[MrStan53]

14 minutes ago, Elrerune The Honorbound said:

Amazing and great opinions guys. Really nice talking with you. Hmm, some of you seem quite hostile, I'm not sure why. I guess all that's left to say is - I'm a Croat. So I'm not a traitor and weakling like the Germans are. So my viewpoints and determination are never shaken. You guys are well educated so you surely know all about it. Bye.

This isn't /his/ or /pol/. This is a forum where we discuss and give feedback on an in-development video game title, discussing gameplay and shooting ideas to make a fun and balanced experience worth buying. If you want to talk about how great German tech was and make it about politics then I'd suggest going to one of those places and keep it off of here.

[GustavKuriga]

10 hours ago, DerRichtigeArzt said:

You can't argue with facts, if germany was so superior to everyone else they would have won the war. But they were inferior warriors and they have met their deserved end. 

While I don't agree with much of what Elrerune The Honorbound said and thus don't have an issue with most of your post; I will disagree with this statement, on multiple levels. 

A) They probably wouldn't have won the war regardless because of the sheer manufacturing capacity imbalance compared to the Allies+Soviet Union. Even if we assume the Allies only built the M3 Lee and nothing else for tanks, Germany would still have fallen. The Soviet Union had plenty of tanks just on their own.

B ) A soldier is not a warrior. The very idea of "warriors" is at odds with how soldiers fight. Individual skill often matters little when so much of life or death comes down to chance, and that's ignoring how much more important the army and front level actions are to the squad level ones. Do not fall into the trap the French did with their "elan". Training and disciplined tactics will do far more than courage. Having a capable General Staff as well as good coordination of forces does far more than being "better fighters" will.

C) The Germans were not inferior on the battlefield. It took the combined forces of France, the UK, the US, and the Soviet Union to defeat them. They were beat on the grand strategic level. This meaning both political decisions about what enemies to make, as well as the logistics and manufacturing to provide for their armies. These are the main areas they were lacking. Avoiding a war with the Soviet Union by holding to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact would have secured the fuel they needed (the Soviets were basically fueling the Germans throughout 1940). They could also have attempted to activate one of the secret conditions of that Pact, which had the Soviets agreeing to help force an end to the war with Britain if they did not agree to a "reasonable peace".  In addition, streamlining production by choosing a tank to focus their efforts on and attempting to aim for simpler to produce vehicles rather than over-engineered designs (looking at you Porsche) would have at least lengthened the war by providing a larger number of tanks for their divisions. For the most part German engagements against the Western Allies favored the Germans on at least the casualty side, though they had less available to lose. Against the Soviets it depends on the year we're talking about. Early on the Soviets took the brunt of casualties as they had both lost a good chunk of their officer corps, as well as not being prepared for the invasion. Later, the Soviets actually had the most effective strategic ground doctrine of the entire war, Deep Battle, which made it extremely difficult for the Germans to do anything besides retreat and reform their defensive line every time the Soviets pierced their lines with entire armies. 

 

I could go on about this, but it's already getting into a long read. Suffice it to say that the idea that ANY army had "inferior soldiers" is laughable. The issue was more about equipment procurement, leadership, and doctrine.

[Airzerg]

20 minutes ago, Elrerune The Honorbound said:

Теперь послушаю, как Крым не принадлежит России? Или что у Украины есть шанс против России? Продолжайте фантазировать.

Ребята, вы кого-то называете «нацистом»? Посмотрите на свой форум, у вас буквально есть белые расисты-расисты из Техаса. Бог знает что еще.

ABOUT! Crimea! Russia! Ukraine! Man, this is a forum for a computer game about ships! Try to find another hobby group.

[Elrerune The Honorbound]

9 minutes ago, Airzerg said:

ABOUT! Crimea! Russia! Ukraine! Man, this is a forum for a computer game about ships! Try to find another hobby group.

I believe I've defended myself enough and explained the course of events. You guys keep on going if that your fun. Just please dont lecture me about politics. Enjoy your fabricated history. I didnt start about politics in the first place other people took it there when they started twisting what I said. You need to look at the beginning before you start attacking and accusing me with your wild imagination. 

Now the admins will rejoice when they ban me or give me some warning point haha big thing.

Edited June 23, 2021 by Elrerune The Honorbound

[Cdodders]

I feel this train has derailed somewhat?

[Admiral Lütjens]

graff spee's main batteries should come in different models like 283 and 303 mm and 128 mm/61 KM40 guns....

[Nick Thomadis]

Please keep this thread relevant to the topic.

Some of the latest irrelevant posts were deleted and Elrerune The Honorbound has been warned.

It is very understandable to discuss about historical matters that concern you but please not in this thread.

[TAKTCOM]

The guys go crazy. Not surprising, nothing worth discussing happens in the game last months. YET, not everyone is as apathetic to the future of the UA:D as I am. 

P.S. It was funny to read last pages. On the one hand, as I have been interested in the navy for the last five years, I felt very wise and knowledgeable 😄 On the other hand, people remain people, no matter what language they speak. Yes, I've seen similar swearing with similar arguments in Russian😉

[Admiral Lütjens]

11 hours ago, Nick Thomadis said:

Please keep this thread relevant to the topic.

Some of the latest irrelevant posts were deleted and Elrerune The Honorbound has been warned.

It is very understandable to discuss about historical matters that concern you but please not in this thread.

sorry  So which post would you suggest I write under?

[ThatZenoGuy]

On 6/21/2021 at 9:00 PM, Cpt.Hissy said:

"Oh yeah our navy's pride was sunk by a flash fire, repeatedly" (c) Beatty
That's not a problem.
the real academy's problem is wild random with in most cases average enemy power being set well above what player is given.

Except that the british ships sank due to them having no armor, cordite (VERY splodey!) and deliberately removing all their safeties. 

My ship with stable propellant, good bulkheads, and all kinds of other stuff can explode just...Randomly.

[TAKTCOM]

3 hours ago, ThatZenoGuy said:

My ship with stable propellant, good bulkheads, and all kinds of other stuff can explode just...Randomly.

Wait a second, I've seen this somewhere before

If serious, I hope this will not happen in the UA:D. Random explosions are pretty frustrating.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by TAKTCOM

[ThatZenoGuy]

10 hours ago, TAKTCOM said:

Wait a second, I've seen this somewhere before

If serious, I hope this will not happen in the UA:D. Random explosions are pretty frustrating.

 

 

I mean it's already in the game! I cannot make any 100% guarantees but because we cannot see certain ingame HP values and such it would seem any damage in a segment containing ammo (even if just barely denting said segment) risks detonation.

I should note that the actual walls of AP battleship shells were inches thick, so even a direct hit is still questionable to detonate the ammo. The only thing that was easy to explode on warships was propellant which was below the waterline AND the shells.

[ThatZenoGuy]

On 6/23/2021 at 1:04 AM, dowdpride said:

Jesus there are Nazis on the forum now? Where are the mods, sleeping?

Several things wrong with this.

Firstly Germans in WW2 did not call themselves "Nazis", so at least use the proper term of National Socialists unless you're saying you yourself are some kind of communist bolshevik (the people who made the term "Nazi" up).

Secondly, "Look ma I called someone a Nazi, do I get a treat now!" is hilarious, and just lame in 'current year'. Try something else.

Thirdly, the mods/admins simply aren't complete and utter tyrants who ban every wrongthink people proclaim to exist.

Lastly, even if he was a literal, unironic, "Nazi", why the hell should you even care? He's not bothering you or anyone else, he's writing words, surprisingly tame and ineffectual words none the less. Do you work for the JIDF by any chance? Do you ever rub your hands?

Edit to add some on-topic discussion:

To add to the ammo detonation/flash fire, barbettes massively increase resistance to said things, however I cannot tell if it works if the ship lacks barbettes or not. Its unclear. In any case why can we not designate barbette thickness instead? Additionally how does barbette upgrades increase the existing thickness if there exists one in the first place?

Edited June 25, 2021 by ThatZenoGuy

[Evil4Zerggin]

1 hour ago, ThatZenoGuy said:

To add to the ammo detonation/flash fire, barbettes massively increase resistance to said things, however I cannot tell if it works if the ship lacks barbettes or not. Its unclear. In any case why can we not designate barbette thickness instead? Additionally how does barbette upgrades increase the existing thickness if there exists one in the first place?

The flash fire chance is now shown in the right panel. (Though oddly, not the detonation chance.)

Barbettes don't do anything except apply the modifiers shown in the tooltip; in particular, they are not connected to armor thicknesses in any way (other than turret armor weight being based on the turret weight, which Barbette components increase). AFAICT you are vulnerable to a flash fire if all of the following are true:

• The hit is a full penetration, an overpenetration, or a torpedo hit. Ricochets, shatters, and partial penetrations never cause flash fires.
• The hit section contains at least one main gun that has not been destroyed or already flash fired.
• The penetration of the hit is at least the effective Turret armor thickness. This is the raw/perpendicular thickness, not the effective/sloped thickness.
• The flash fire roll triggers. Smaller guns are less likely to flash fire.

Damage is proportional to the base damage for the shell size. It can be reduced by up to 40% by the Bulkheads slider.

Detonation is the same except:

• The hit has to make 1.35x the effective armor thickness to potentially trigger a detonation, rather than 1x.
• Secondaries can also detonate.
• Detonation does ~30% more damage.

So with enough Turret (and Secondaries, if applicable) armor compared to the penetration of the incoming hits you can prevent all flash fires and detonations, even if you have 0" armor everywhere else, minimum Bulkheads slider, no Barbettes, Electric traverse, Increased Ammo, Lyddite Super Heavy Shells, and max size Oxygen Torpedoes (AFAICT torpedoes only increase gun detonation chance, they don't detonate themselves). Not that I recommend this!

Meanwhile, it's impossible to get -100% flash fire modifier, so if your turret armor gets penetrated there's always a chance of getting flash fired.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Evil4Zerggin