RNG is broken

[brucesim2003]

Yes I know, selective memory etc ... no! Don't mention it. Don't want to hear it.

My 2 Modern UK BB's, 9x 14", 16x5".

AI BB's turned out to be 10x13" each. Also about 15k tons lighter. Slower. Thinner, lower quality armour, etc.

 

So I put down one of them with no problem. The other is 1/2 dead. My hit chance is about 15% @ about 15k. The wreck of the ai ship is about 6%. He's down to about 30@ health, couple of turrets out. All of a sudden, he's hitting me 2-3 times a broadside, and I can't hit him at all. Zigzagging didn't do anything. I'm doing 20 kts, him about 7. By the end of the battle, he has sunk both my ships.

That's plain garbage. It was literally like a light switch, didn't matter what happened, no hits for me, multiple every salvo for him.

Rng IS NOT WORKING. Don't say otherwise, will ignore such claims it is.

[Macul153]

Depending on your armour you should've angled towards him more, ricochet more shots while designing a ships rear guns to still be able to fire. at a slight angle

[Stormnet]

4 hours ago, Macul153 said:

Depending on your armour you should've angled towards him more, ricochet more shots while designing a ships rear guns to still be able to fire. at a slight angle

He isnt really referring to the armor penetration. He was however talking about the accuracy RNG.

How a outnumbered, weaker, severely damaged, crippled battleship was able to somehow fight back and getting straight hits, destroying 2 stronger battleships.

 

 

6 hours ago, brucesim2003 said:

Rng IS NOT WORKING. Don't say otherwise, will ignore such claims it is.

 

Well, to be honest and realistic, situations like that can perfectly happen with RNG. Its possible, even if you have double the hit chance, to completely fail all hits while the enemy with half the percentage to hit never misses. A usually very rare situation, but possible with the nature of RNG. Having a 1 in 10 hit chance doesnt mean every 1 in 10 shells will hit. It means ON AVERAGE 1 in 10 shells will hit. Having a 0.000001% chance can still mean a succesfull hit, while 99.999999% can still mean a missed shot. Until we get actual simulated shell physics or the RNG model replaced, stuff like this can happen. 

Now, what you should wonder is how often it happens. Althought with RNG, it is still possible to play the game for hours, days, or even years and never in a single time get a hit. But that would be ridicoulously and stupidly unlikely, in par with shuffling a deck of cards and getting the exact same order.  If it happens that often THEN it should be looked into.

How often do you have an issue like that, per each 20 battles (lets say)? (I'm not implying that you are exagerating or something, but one situation cannot serve as evidence alone.)

Edited March 21, 2021 by Stormnet

[Skeksis]

1 hour ago, Stormnet said:

How often do you have an issue like that, per each 20 battles (lets say)? (I'm not implying that you are exagerating or something, but one situation cannot serve as evidence alone.)

“Prove your Might” mission is a classic example of RNG going wrong. It's a success criteria purely based on RNG and not your ability to build ships based on game knowledge or your command ability.

Potentially you can have an unfair random event or an series of unfair random events and that series of events is the problem, it can be better descripted as ‘the flaw’ in the RNG system. NA RNG loot drop has this flaw too.

It seems that every time an RNG concern is posted it’s dismissed later, don't know why, the game just carries on, it’s never addressed.

There’s no cap or bottom line limit for RNG unfairness.

[Stormnet]

13 hours ago, Skeksis said:

“Prove your Might” mission is a classic example of RNG going wrong. It's a success criteria purely based on RNG and not your ability to build ships based on game knowledge or your command ability.

Potentially you can have an unfair random event or an series of unfair random events and that series of events is the problem, it can be better descripted as ‘the flaw’ in the RNG system. NA RNG loot drop has this flaw too.

It seems that every time an RNG concern is posted it’s dismissed later, don't know why, the game just carries on, it’s never addressed.

There’s no cap or bottom line limit for RNG unfairness.

Alright, then there is a sistematic problem with RNG. 

The best solution would be, ofc, to simulate shell physics and damage and ditch RNG altogheder. But since we are not getting a system like that anytime soon, we'll have to content with the devs patching and balancing it for now.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Stormnet

[Right]

every time I checked my fully functional ships after a battle the total % of the total shots are about the same to all of them meaning RNG might fk u up sometimes but in the end it isn't broken, so a dd can ammo detonate a bb but that would happen once in 20 close combat scenarios. In total after having hundrads of battles the RNG hardly takes part in 1% of them and it sucks when it happens but any other try to implement a system that could give you a better resault would come at the cost of other more important things the game offer so it doesnt worth it.

 

edit: went over your description of events again, it seems more of a poor execution by your side. I didn't saw it myself so I might be wrong but it sounds like you used poor tactic when engaging and you mistaken the outcome of it of the RNG.

 

There is no such a thing as a real RNG, in most games the devs add some hidden calculation so it wouldn't be as randome as ppl mistakenly thinking it to be.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Right

[Cpt.Hissy]

It's a common knowledge already, that truly random RNG in games always feels unfair. Because it actually is not fair, it's random.
Nearly all successful games used controlled random that favours player's expectations in some way or another.. Unless randomness is made into a feature.

[madham82]

1 hour ago, Right said:

edit: went over your description of events again, it seems more of a poor execution by your side. I didn't saw it myself so I might be wrong but it sounds like you used poor tactic when engaging and you mistaken the outcome of it of the RNG.

That's a huge assumption based on the fact that there is literally no way a half dead ship under fire from two different BBs with larger guns, better armor, and twice the listed accuracy. Short of running into a wave of torpedoes, don't see how the outcome of this battle could be screwed up by the OPs tactics. Though, of course that is assumption too lol. 

[Right]

1 hour ago, madham82 said:

don't see how the outcome of this battle could be screwed up by the OPs tactics. Though, of course that is assumption too lol. 

real time damage lower acc and smaller guns means more shots per sec in close combat where armor almost doesnt metter, enough that the ai got a few shots in a row on his ships would drop his acc up to 50%, all number considered with high rate of fire and the assumption that the reason the enemy was on low health because of an early engagment which gave him time to recover his acc i can see how it is very possible.

he should have used the speed and high health and just gun it from afar. again, all assumptions but that what I came to see from the way he described the situation.

also 2v1 he shouldn't have been going with his broad side. while he probbly was circulating around him showing him an easy target and mybe even engaging him when the ai facing him and losing much of his own ships acc to speed.

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Right

[Skeksis]

12 hours ago, Stormnet said:

Alright, then there is a sistematic problem with RNG. 

The best solution would be, ofc, to simulate shell physics and damage and ditch RNG altogheder. But since we are not getting a system like that anytime soon, we'll have to content with the devs patching and balancing it for now.

The fact is computers know exactly where everything is and can shoot 100% accuracy and do 100% destruction, it’s up to the programmer to make the computer miss and tone down damage and they do it via RNG, this simulates RL.

All games use this method.

The thing with ‘prove your might’ is that it’s made to be a ‘very hard’ mission but this has turned it into a random win criteria, a gamble if you like. No matter how good the player application is, with available tech, it’s never going to be enough to outmatch the mission, thus begins the gamble. And IMO it’s missed simulating RL and turn the mission into a slot-machine win mission, that’s why some players say it’s sweet but others quit and never play academy missions again, the two extremes echoing RNG perfectly.

UAAoS and the general series do a great job of masking RNG with their carefully crafted missions and campaigns, you never notice the RNG factors, so maybe the issue is in the crafting of these missions like ‘prove your might’.

But there maybe another factor in play. GameLabs does like to add a “gambling factor” into their games, while UAAoS toned down its initial release loot system and the general series not so much and these games do a great job of masking RNG, NA is way different, it doesn’t mask nothing, its loot system is total RNG, a total gamble, even some battle mechanics (from my observations).

So just maybe UAD is inheriting some NA/GameLabs RNG aspects and then this too would explain ‘prove your might’ existent.   

In the end ‘prove your might’ is only highlighting the issue, hide it better, craft better missions or add more layers of battle mechanics is up to Dev’s but I agree with everybody, do nothing is not an option.  

Edited March 22, 2021 by Skeksis

[brucesim2003]

On 3/23/2021 at 1:53 AM, Right said:

edit: went over your description of events again, it seems more of a poor execution by your side. I didn't saw it myself so I might be wrong but it sounds like you used poor tactic when engaging and you mistaken the outcome of it of the RNG.

And what tactic would that be?

[Right]

9 minutes ago, brucesim2003 said:

And what tactic would that be?

you mean what should you do or what I assumed you did?

I think you just closed in on him and circulated around. a good tactic would be using everything you can to your advantage but its hard for me to go over everything, briefly that would be to "dance" so every littel while another ship is closer to him while making sure you engaging in an angle and to your guns distance advantage.

[brucesim2003]

On 3/24/2021 at 10:43 AM, Right said:

I think you just closed in on him and circulated around...

And the basis for your assumption? No legitimate one that I've given you. Don't assume things you have no reason to. It gets people annoyed.

Even if that is what I did, a 1/2 crippled grossly inferior ship shot not be able to do what that one did.

[Right]

On 3/21/2021 at 2:14 PM, brucesim2003 said:

So I put down one of them with no problem. The other is 1/2 dead. Zigzagging didn't do anything. I'm doing 20 kts, him about 7. By the end of the battle, he has sunk both my ships.

I have a good reason to assume what you did by the way you wrote it down, and if you don't want others to do that be more informative don't blame game mechanics for your lacking and be more nice. At any point I didn't shut you down and you could always brighten things up. 

I have more then 400h in this game, I like it and I think you over reacting, the RNG isn't broken, it is the poor execution of the player who makes it so or the assumption of humans that think there is no grey in a world of black and white.

Sorry to tell you but you are wrong. Look up, in history and gaming pages there are numerous situations where that happened and still happens, welcome to real life.

If it would have happened the other way around would you have been reacting the same or had a proud smile on your face?

Edited March 26, 2021 by Right

[brucesim2003]

20 minutes ago, Right said:

I have a good reason to assume what you did by the way you wrote it down, and if you don't want others to do that be more informative don't blame game mechanics for your lacking and be more nice. At any point I didn't shut you down and you could always brighten things up. 

I have more then 400h in this game, I like it and I think you over reacting, the RNG isn't broken, it is the poor execution of the player who makes it so or the assumption of humans that think there is no grey in a world of black and white.

Sorry to tell you but you are wrong. Look up, in history and gaming pages there are numerous situations where that happened and still happens, welcome to real life.

If it would have happened the other way around would you have been reacting the same or had a proud smile on your face?

You arrogant little turd. 🤬  Length of play doesn't confer wisdom about how the game is programmed.

I gave the pertinent information. You assumed, with no evidence whatsoever, that my tactics were at fault. Name me one instance of a 1/2 crippled, obsolete capital ship outfought and sunk 2 modern counterparts. You can't, it's never happened in modern history.

White knight the game all you like. You've just made my 1st candidate on my ignore list.

[Right]

I only tried to help and if you don't want it don't read what I wrote. I just used my brain to understand and by your reaction I assume, again, I was right as well.

If you don't see why I assumed what I did you can just say so but I quoted you for a reason and tried to explain. If some one is arrogant it is you for underestimate my reaction just because it doesn't fit into your way of thinking and decided to describe me as a "turd".

I was reading a lot about naval battles and it did happend, not word for word ofc, but it did. The game isn't even close to be 100%realistic and the gameplay that anyone would choose as a player would probbly wouldn't be aswell, so to compare it for real naval battles is pointless, the fact is that the outcome of anything is the sum of some numbers and it depends on the player to try and make them work better for him. You did a poor job at that(400 hours can give the wisdome to know that)

Bye and GL.

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Right

[madham82]

4 hours ago, Right said:

I was reading a lot about naval battles and it did happend, not word for word ofc, but it did. 

Considering the few number of BB on BB engagements in history, it has not happened as in the OPs description. Let's not generalize something down simply to prove a point. We are here to improve the game, which has many opportunities for improvement at this point. 

 

8 hours ago, brucesim2003 said:

Even if that is what I did, a 1/2 crippled grossly inferior ship shot not be able to do what that one did.

So can you actually elaborate on what happened? Not asking for a play by play, but how exactly were your BBs sunk? Flash fire detonation? What ranges? Did the AI happen to hit your towers? 

Edited March 26, 2021 by madham82
too early for grammar

[Right]

20 minutes ago, madham82 said:

Considering the few number of BB on BB engagements in history, it has not happened as in the OPs description. Let's not generalize something down simply to prove a point.

True, in naval history we won't find such a battle, that is why I pointed later down that it is irrelevant here but in a whider spec it happened with other ship types so it is logical in a sense.

There are many reasons why this could have happened to him, I just tried to point out that he shouldn't be frustrated about it and blame it as an RNG problem because it might have been started as such but ended the way it did for other reasons.

[SPANISH_AVENGER]

Yeah, sometimes I get really weird stuff.

Like, I have 12 guns, 54% chance of hit... yet I can sometimes fire up to 10 salvos and score 0 hits, meanwhile the enemy with 16% chance of hit hits me at least one shell every salvo...? And for some reason accuracy drops to 11% without having taken damage to the towers or flooding or anything... Stuff like that

Edited March 26, 2021 by SPANISH_AVENGER

[SPANISH_AVENGER]

On 3/22/2021 at 10:41 AM, Stormnet said:

The best solution would be, ofc, to simulate shell physics and damage and ditch RNG altogheder. But since we are not getting a system like that anytime soon, we'll have to content with the devs patching and balancing it for now.

 

This would bring the game on a whole new level!

Edited March 26, 2021 by SPANISH_AVENGER

[Skeksis]

...

Edited November 9, 2021 by Skeksis

[brucesim2003]

7 hours ago, madham82 said:

So can you actually elaborate on what happened? Not asking for a play by play, but how exactly were your BBs sunk? Flash fire detonation? What ranges? Did the AI happen to hit your towers? 

Excessive fires. He was hitting me so often that the ships couldn't put out the fires fast enough. Ranges varied between 13k -> 20k. Flash fire has never been a problem for me. Never had one on a ship I've designed.

Edited March 26, 2021 by brucesim2003

[madham82]

8 minutes ago, brucesim2003 said:

Excessive fires. He was hitting me so often that the ships couldn't put out the fires fast enough. Ranges varied between 13k -> 20k. Flash fire has never been a problem for me. Never had one on a ship I've designed.

That's odd, I've never seen a ship actually sink from fires. Actually never seen fires do any significant amount of damage, except the aforementioned flash fire. Was the AI shooting HE at you? I assume so if there that many fires. If so, this could be related to the HE problems in another thread. 

[Cpt.Hissy]

Had ships sink to fires after really serious hit, when literally everything was on fire. Seems like it's actually death by structural HP loss, registers as excessive fires if at that moment there was massive fire.

[akd]

This game is doomed if the “fix RNG” crowd is showing up.