Cpt.Hissy Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 @Nick Thomadis it's easy, torpedoes happen to be more interesting for the commenters than contents of the update. Maybe it's a sign, or maybe it's just so happened at this particular time. People sometimes forget that this isn't a finished product A problem with torpedoes reloading and refiring multiple times while in battle and under fire, like some weird slow firing swimming cannons, is that it isn't "realistic", it's not how torps were (and could be) used due to what a torpedo is. Though perhaps, torpedo reloads will work good when the rest of the game is there, and we'll be able to see this mechanic in the environment it is meant to be in, instead of trying to fit it in real naval warfare. If the team is confident with what they're doing, just keep going. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cptbarney Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 Too be fair, we havent really discussed Torps since alpha 5 or 6, so im not surprised the dev team hasn't done anything with them. Lets wait until the campaign comes along too see what impact that will have on torps in general, then after a bit of polish we go from there. Still in alpha atm, and still missing some core features of the game, so got a while to go. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cptbarney Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 We could have a component for Torp reloads that adds a box or cylinder like structure on top, that contains the extra torps, however it becomes somewhat slower and also a little bit easier to hit and adds obviously extra weight too and increased flashfires or torp explosions. Could be an excuse too add a new death anim. Actually speaking of witch when the team can do so, they should add some more when they can. (Obviously not now or Alpha 12/Core Alpha 1). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigjku Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 33 minutes ago, Nick Thomadis said: Sorry but what is the problem with torpedo reloads? The new update offered so many things and we discuss here about something that has been addressed. Already, torpedoes are not unlimited, such as in other games. Torpedo reloads already cost significant weight and money. In campaign torpedo and ammo rounds will have more impact as there are going to be realistic shortages. So now, exactly, what is the problem? Do we need torpedo rounds to be even more expensive and heavy so that they are even more limited? Usually torpedo rounds are up to 2 on average. You can increase but the weight cost will limit the Destroyer in protection and speed significantly. In the end, torpedoes from distance are not so lethal, since they seldom find a target. PS. Ships in formations already auto-evade torpedoes except the division leaders. Divisions leaders which are under player control, if they are commanded badly, they will be hit by torpedoes, of course. Ships in their formation will do their best to evade but they also try to keep a formation which is an extra effort that might make their evasion less effective. Later we can give more automation options, but it is not a priority. I ran up against a cruiser with something like 160 torpedoes on board. No issue with a ship with 15 tubes carrying 30 total torpedoes. 160 was and is absurd. Have not tested heavy cruises much in new build yet to see if it still happens. When that happens it creates tactical oddities. Say I have 4 each destroyers, battleships and cruisers. It isn’t unusual for the enemy cruisers and destroyers to unload full decks of torpedoes at my destroyers as they run in. This would be a giant tactical mistake in real life one would struggle to recover from. But it doesn’t impact here because they just reload and fire at the next target. For deck tubes there really should be a hard cap of one reload set. 15 tubes you can have 30 torpedoes. 20 tubes and you can have 20. Otherwise destroyers have to go back to a tender or base to reload the things. If you don’t have a base or gender close using torpedoes is actually a major decision in a protracted remote campaign. The people commenting paid for the game knowing it was a work in progress. Many likely did it because we are fans of your prior work (UGCW is one of my favorite games). So don’t take it as criticism. But for those with knowledge of naval history it takes them out of immersion when a ship is volleying off full deck load torpedo volleys every few minutes until you can deal with it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cptbarney Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 soo...they have joined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Thomadis Posted March 12, 2021 Author Share Posted March 12, 2021 18 minutes ago, Bigjku said: I ran up against a cruiser with something like 160 torpedoes on board. No issue with a ship with 15 tubes carrying 30 total torpedoes. 160 was and is absurd. Maximum reloads for torpedoes is 4x and minimum is 2x. So in your case, 15 tubes would carry maximum 60 torpedoes. Probably an exaggeration, more torpedo tubes or a bug? Anyhow, not a big deal to reduce further the max. reloads to span between 1-3 if that would make things better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zuikaku Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Nick Thomadis said: Sorry but what is the problem with torpedo reloads? The new update offered so many things and we discuss here about something that has been addressed. Already, torpedoes are not unlimited, such as in other games. Torpedo reloads already cost significant weight and money. In campaign torpedo and ammo rounds will have more impact as there are going to be realistic shortages. So now, exactly, what is the problem? Do we need torpedo rounds to be even more expensive and heavy so that they are even more limited? Usually torpedo rounds are up to 2 on average. You can increase but the weight cost will limit the Destroyer in protection and speed significantly. In the end, torpedoes from distance are not so lethal, since they seldom find a target. PS. Ships in formations already auto-evade torpedoes except the division leaders. Divisions leaders which are under player control, if they are commanded badly, they will be hit by torpedoes, of course. Ships in their formation will do their best to evade but they also try to keep a formation which is an extra effort that might make their evasion less effective. Later we can give more automation options, but it is not a priority. Don't get me wrong, I like the game and I'm aware this is "just" an alpha but... I hope it's OK to point out at some things that I consider to be wrong at the moment. And torpedoes and torpedo mechanics didn't get much love so far. So, what is wrong with torpedoes? 1. They are flawless, they explode on any impact angle regardless of year and tech level. There are no dud torpedoes, failed exploders, circular runs... 2. Having 2,3,4 or even more reloads per tube during the battle is just wrong. As the other ones pointed out, there shoul'd be 1 reload per tube max (requiring special techs and ship modules/deck space). Hope this is going to function in the campaign! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigjku Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 37 minutes ago, Nick Thomadis said: Maximum reloads for torpedoes is 4x and minimum is 2x. So in your case, 15 tubes would carry maximum 60 torpedoes. Probably an exaggeration, more torpedo tubes or a bug? Anyhow, not a big deal to reduce further the max. reloads to span between 1-3 if that would make things better. Oh this ship had many more launchers than 3 quints. It was loaded down with them fore and aft and port and starboard but the 160 number wasn’t an exaggeration. Usually it isn’t that bad but I have seen plenty of numbers on the far side of 50. Most realistic would be zero reloads to one reload. Honestly the best option to modify your exiting three options would be No Reloads, stowed reloads (ie you can have a reload set between battles) and combat reloads where you get one fresh set during a battle. The issue with anything but the Japanese style system is you have to put people on deck to manage the process. People tend to be very squishy when shells are impacting in or around the ship. So I would say they are a one shot weapon with an option to carry one combat reload at a big weight penalty. You could have the third option to select stowed reloads that would let you have torpedoes in multiple battles but not reload in the heat of action. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Thomadis Posted March 12, 2021 Author Share Posted March 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, Bigjku said: Most realistic would be zero reloads to one reload. My apologies if I was not clear. Means 2x to 4x loads. So each tube can carry 2 to 4 rounds of torpedoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Hissy Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 Torpedoes are effectively small autonomous self-piloting ships, not a munition like shells. So they need some dedicated infrastructure onboard to handle, prepare and launch them, and are expensive - so expensive in fact they sometimes were not fired in opportunity just because of that. Torpedo ship is in fact a carrier of sorts. This isn't reflected well by handling them like ammo with reloads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Thomadis Posted March 12, 2021 Author Share Posted March 12, 2021 4 minutes ago, Cpt.Hissy said: Torpedoes are effectively small autonomous self-piloting ships, not a munition like shells. So they need some dedicated infrastructure onboard to handle, prepare and launch them, and are expensive - so expensive in fact they sometimes were not fired in opportunity just because of that. Torpedo ship is in fact a carrier of sorts. This isn't reflected well by handling them like ammo with reloads. The idea of having a reload module on ship is very good, and we can do a bit later. Until then, we can balance out the present system to be more realistic. 9 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zuikaku Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, Nick Thomadis said: The idea of having a reload module on ship is very good, and we can do a bit later. Until then, we can balance out the present system to be more realistic. Thank you, Nick! 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigjku Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 48 minutes ago, Nick Thomadis said: The idea of having a reload module on ship is very good, and we can do a bit later. Until then, we can balance out the present system to be more realistic. That sounds great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cptbarney Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 I wonder if we should get a Modules tab that includes more precise or different items that add and/or enhance gameplay in different ways? Could effect all kinds like, Torpedo Reload module, or smoke module something along those lines. But grounded in realism and have positives plus negatives and have to be researched as well. Idk, something to maybe consider way, way down the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1MajorKoenig Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Nick Thomadis said: Maximum reloads for torpedoes is 4x and minimum is 2x. So in your case, 15 tubes would carry maximum 60 torpedoes. Probably an exaggeration, more torpedo tubes or a bug? Anyhow, not a big deal to reduce further the max. reloads to span between 1-3 if that would make things better. Honestly I like torpedoes in this game. And having the option between multiple reloads is exactly what we need. I think it would be interesting to be able to set the reloads between none (no reloads) and up to 4 sets. Edited March 12, 2021 by 1MajorKoenig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonicB Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Nick Thomadis said: The idea of having a reload module on ship is very good, and we can do a bit later. Until then, we can balance out the present system to be more realistic. Thank you! For the record, I'm also in the school of thought that believes deckmounted torps should have 0-1 reloads and hull-mounted launchers should have more (like the current 2-4.) All torps should definitely also have a dud chance. Either a static % for simplicity, or for bonus points related to a) the newness of the technology and/or b) the angle of impact. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Thomadis Posted March 12, 2021 Author Share Posted March 12, 2021 1 minute ago, SonicB said: Thank you! For the record, I'm also in the school of thought that believes deckmounted torps should have 0-1 reloads and hull-mounted launchers should have more (like the current 2-4.) All torps should definitely also have a dud chance. Either a static % for simplicity, or for bonus points related to a) the newness of the technology and/or b) the angle of impact. Yes, this is exactly how it should work. We will do as soon as we finish with the most important. 7 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VarangianGarde Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 3 hours ago, Bigjku said: I ran up against a cruiser with something like 160 torpedoes on board. No issue with a ship with 15 tubes carrying 30 total torpedoes. 160 was and is absurd. Have not tested heavy cruises much in new build yet to see if it still happens. When that happens it creates tactical oddities. Say I have 4 each destroyers, battleships and cruisers. It isn’t unusual for the enemy cruisers and destroyers to unload full decks of torpedoes at my destroyers as they run in. This would be a giant tactical mistake in real life one would struggle to recover from. But it doesn’t impact here because they just reload and fire at the next target. For deck tubes there really should be a hard cap of one reload set. 15 tubes you can have 30 torpedoes. 20 tubes and you can have 20. Otherwise destroyers have to go back to a tender or base to reload the things. If you don’t have a base or gender close using torpedoes is actually a major decision in a protracted remote campaign. The people commenting paid for the game knowing it was a work in progress. Many likely did it because we are fans of your prior work (UGCW is one of my favorite games). So don’t take it as criticism. But for those with knowledge of naval history it takes them out of immersion when a ship is volleying off full deck load torpedo volleys every few minutes until you can deal with it. This does bring up the point of having auxiliary and support ships that are operational in game. Thus if your force depletes gun, fuel, and torpedo ammo as it moves over the ocean, you need to have logistical support in the form oilers/colliers, supply, and tender ships. I got excited and brought this up a while ago, and would love to res the topic, found here: Support and Auxiliary Ships 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madham82 Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 Ok enough with torpedoes (but good discussion). Let's get back to helping Nick and team with the current build. Once they are at a point they are ready to tackle the subject, we can flush out the details. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tycondero Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 @Nick Thomadis Thank you very much for listening to the community. I think I speak for a lot of us in saying that we do not mind if things are not happening right away (no sane person should expect that for a dev imo), but it is great to hear that we are at least heard. Just saying that you will have a look at it already makes me feel much more confident that a good balance will be achieved once you start to work on torpedoes with some more focus. 5 hours ago, Nick Thomadis said: PS. Ships in formations already auto-evade torpedoes except the division leaders. Divisions leaders which are under player control, if they are commanded badly, they will be hit by torpedoes, of course. Ships in their formation will do their best to evade but they also try to keep a formation which is an extra effort that might make their evasion less effective. Later we can give more automation options, but it is not a priority. I must say that this is not really the case (sadly). I have seen plenty of games where even small and nimble destroyers are just doing their thing (e.g. screening) and get hit by torpedoes that were timely spotted and easily avoided if a player would have intervened manually. They didn't even try to evade to be honest, let along "do their best". Furthermore, these unfortunate ships were not division leaders. At the moment, manual intervention disrupts the flow of the game too much for the player as usually this would require the player to detach a ship from a division formation, set an order to steer and evade, followed by either rejoining its formation to return to the status quo. Either this needs to become easier for the player to quickly realize (without requiring too many cumbersome actions) or the AI needs to be strengthened to better evade by itself if not the division leader. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Hissy Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Nick Thomadis said: Yes, this is exactly how it should work. We will do as soon as we finish with the most important. Great to hear this! Thanks for clarifying. This is kind of feedback community needs! When something looks stupid now, and it's due to it being a placeholder to be replaced/finished later, sharing this will help, and will free you from a lot of unnecessary community rants 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigjku Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 2 hours ago, madham82 said: Ok enough with torpedoes (but good discussion). Let's get back to helping Nick and team with the current build. Once they are at a point they are ready to tackle the subject, we can flush out the details. I have started just altering one factor of the three (armor, speed, weapons) in the ship designer to see if the changes make sense to me as I see what you can get for building bigger ships. There is a big long thread I started about it but overall I think at least in late model ships (1940) things work pretty well so long as the ships are sized within the bounds of historical ships and even somewhat about that. Things get a bit wonky (particularly speed) as you get up above the 70,000 ton mark. I have thrown out some suggestions on ways to maybe incorporate limits into the campaign and tech tree to keep things a bit more in balance as well as open up different things in the tech tree players could invest in which would create more variety in player outcomes. Tonnage Cost of Capabilities and SHP for Designs - General Discussions - Game-Labs Forum (game-labs.net) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigjku Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 On 3/10/2021 at 1:05 PM, Nick Thomadis said: The new hotfix update has just become available. Restart your launcher to get it. *HotFix v82* (10/3/2021) Japanese late tech 4/5-inch guns of large capital ships got their proper model (for making Yamato looking secondaries). Various repairs in Auto-Design. (Addressing some potential overlapping issues between guns and superstructure). Fixed bug that could cause AI to build ships with underwater guns or player to create floating guns. Please report if you anticipate this bug again. Fixed "empty barbette" warning on new British towers, caused by unoccupied side gun placements. Fixed "Mount 2" error that could make parts to not mount as they should. Fixed bug that caused turret barrels to overlap with superstructure when rotating during battle. Fixed a rare bug that caused the critical exception "Too many threads". Various tower and ship part fixes/improvements as reported. Reduced further the distance in which AI scout and independent ships operate away from the main fleet. AI should save ammo with more efficiency, it should fire at medium ranges with low ammo.- Penetration improvements as per players' suggestions. Deck penetration power is not so much pronounced compared to side hit penetration. Please note two issues that are known and we are working to fix them: - Sometimes the auto-design of a fleet in a custom battle or Naval Academy battle may delay too long and hang the game. - The "Too many threads" error can still happen. We will investigate the cause and fix ASAP. The fix on the American Heavy Cruiser secondary mounts on the tower is mostly right. I can mount dual 5 inch guns. However the upper secondary mounts mount the guns at an odd angle. I think it works fine for gameplay though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draco Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 (edited) 12 hours ago, Bigjku said: The fix on the American Heavy Cruiser secondary mounts on the tower is mostly right. I can mount dual 5 inch guns. However the upper secondary mounts mount the guns at an odd angle. I think it works fine for gameplay though. Pretty sure they mash together with the superstructure if they aren't tilted. I prefer the current solution, at least for now. Edited March 13, 2021 by Draco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cdodders Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 Is the ability to recreate HMS Incomparable coming any time soon? Basically being able to fit 20" guns BC hulls. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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