A few thoughts on the overall concept (Please read)

[PongoDeMer]

Okay, I have these warships, each of which has a number of strengths and weaknesses.  According to best intelligence, the enemy has (or is likely to have) those warships, with a different number of strengths and weaknesses. All I have to do is to come up with a plan to defeat the enemy, right? Erm… no.  Not only does this particular game let me select the ships I need, but it also allows me to build each one from the keel up.

let’s start with what I like about the game.  Designing ships and then testing them in battle is a wonderful selling point; moreover, one which should attract naval wargamers like a moth to a candle.  The game is also easy to learn and enormous fun to play.  It is clear that an awful lot of research has gone into developing a realistic depiction of naval combat during the pre-Dreadnought Dreadnought and Battleship eras.  The developers are not resting on their laurels either as they are taking note of feedback and are continuing to improve the game so it will be as good as it can be before final release.

Now, let’s take a look at what needs improving.  First and foremost, there is not a single historical warship in the game.  Every ship is either created by the player or the artificial intelligence which makes it impossible to see how the ships you have designed would have fared in real-life against authentic opposition.  If the makers included ironclad technology for the Royal Navy, a player could come away with the impression that a ship like HMS Captain was a truly wonderful design.  All you have to do is to Google HMS Captain to find out how utterly misleading this would be.

As the saying goes, “When you are up to your ass in alligators, it is difficult to remember that the original object of the exercise is to drain the swamp.” The simple fact that there is all this wonderful stuff going on with nary a real warship in sight leads me to the unavoidable conclusion that the developers have somehow lost their way.  Don’t get me wrong, fantasy Ultimate Admiral Dreadnoughts would be fine, but if that is the goal, then perhaps they should go the whole hog and include the means to create HG Wells’ torpedo ram Thunderchild plus the tripods from Mars.

I’m afraid that the bottom line is that wargamers want wargames that are grounded in history, and for a naval game, that must include a decent selection of historical warships and battle scenarios.  Were the makers to include these, I am confident that their highly original concept would be transformed into a world beater.  I for one, would (for example) love fighting the Battle of the Denmark Straits with realistic computer depictions of the ships that were there and then to have a rematch with modified Hood and KGV class BBs, or some of my own original creations, to see if they fared any better.

And now, onto some of the nuts and bolts of the game.  The makers really need to go firm on what the rationale is behind the Naval Academy scenarios.  At the last count, there were fifty-one, FIFTY-ONE of these.  At the time of writing, I have completed nine.  Not only did the ‘First Casemates’ scenario completely flummox me, but going by the comments on this forum, it had pretty much the same effect on everyone else.  The only way I ended up winning it was to design an absolute abortion of a ship (christened the USS Captain) with massive 10” cannons perched outside on the very top deck. These would have made her so top-heavy that if she had set sail in conditions any choppier than the average mill-pond, it is a racing cert that she would have suffered exactly the same fate as her namesake.  What is the purpose of a scenario like this?  If it was included for tutorial purposes, what does it teach, apart from how to design the most freakish vessel imaginable?  If it was historical, then surely it should have taken the form of the Battle of Hampton Roads, complete with authentic Monitor plus an equally authentic Virginia.  Ship design is a separate subject and, in this writer's opinion, it would clearly be much better handled by scenarios from a later period.

This of course, leads me on to the sheer scope of the game, running from the 1860s until the1950s.  This is so vast that were an acceptable amount of detail included, it would seem unlikely that the game would be released for another five years.  It seems to me that the makers should focus on a much narrower timeframe, covering – say – the pre-Dreadnought and Dreadnought eras.  Other periods and wars could be dealt with by later modules or DLCs, which would include real warships, real battles and real campaigns, with of course, the ahistorical option of researching technologies and building your own vessels from the keel up.  It strikes me that this would likely result in some pretty healthy repeat business.  I for one, would gladly part with my money for an American Civil War or a Russo-Japanese module, with all the related vessels and technologies included.

So which way is this project going?  Will it be American Civil War to Korean War, or is it going to be War of the Worlds to Star Trek?  Either way, I will follow developments with interest.

Pongo de Mer

Edited December 18, 2020 by PongoDeMer

[HistoricalAccuracyMan]

As a fellow history enthusiast, I too wish there were 100% faithful recreations of certain ships. However, if you can look just a little ways past the part of "100% Historical" you can actually get pretty close "approximations," if you will, of historical ships. For example, I am a huge fan of the US Navy's dreadnoughts but in order to build a USS Texas I have to set my ship's displacement to somewhere in the neighborhood of 60k tons just so I can get the ship long enough to fit the middle turret (for reference, the USS Iowa at full load was 58,700 tons). Apart from the bigger displacement, one could look at it and say "Yep, that's a New York Class Battleship" or "Yeah, that's the USS Texas." [This is one of the few examples where the superstructure options match well with the irl designs/looks] And the Ironclad academy missions were released more as a joke or fun escape from the "traditional" warship battles, as the only place you can actually build the ironclads are in those two academy missions.

However, displacement limits/hull size isn't the only limiting factor. Some ships can't be recreated due to gun layouts and how the game does them or the somewhat limited superstructure options. For instance, I have yet to design a believable Atlanta, Brooklyn or Takao/Myoko class cruiser design simply down to gun layout and the lack of superstructure options, some of which would have to incorporate barbettes to get the gun placement correctly.

Another point to really remember is that the game is "historically based" and "realistic," not "historically accurate" or "made for tactical realism/simulator." The devs wanted to give us the choice to design what we want, how we want it within the limits of the game. Can we design the KMS Bismarck 100% the same as it was in the real world? No, but darn it if we can't get really close! Or on the other hand...we can design an Iowa Class with an 18-inch main battery and a 6-inch secondary battery.

The scope of the full game is actually from the 1980s to the 1940s/50s (as pointed out above, the ironclads are only available to play in their respective academy missions). Plus, if you are talking about dreadnoughts, you could look at plenty of dreadnought designs from the 1910s and the inter-war period that served right up until the end of WWII. The examples that spring to mind are the New York, Pennsylvania, Wyoming, Nevada, Colorado and Tennessee Class dreadnoughts for the US Navy and for the Japanese Navy you had the Fuso, Nagato, Ise (which was later converted to battleship-carrier hybrids) and the Kongo class (the Kongos started as Battlecruisers, but were re-designated as Battleships at the start of WWII).

TL;DR   Don't look too deep into the nitty-gritty, true to life facts about this game (like the fact that yes, the Ironclads would likely capsize due to being top heavy as you pointed out). Yes, it's not 100% historically accurate, but it wasn't designed to be and you can get pretty close to actual ships in game. Some problems/issues are due to the ship designer sometimes severely limiting your options, others are due to intentional design decisions. The scope of the game is quite large, but ultimately the time period you choose to play in is up to you.

[PongoDeMer]

Given that even wargames with accurate ORBATS and dispositions are most unlikely to achieve exactly the same result in a battle or campaign - especially at sea - it can be fairly stated that all wargames are historically based, as opposed to being historically accurate.  However, judging by some of the comments on these forums, there is a very real demand for historic ships and battles to be included.  It would certainly be easy enough for you to do.  I take your point that in a game of this sort, precise accuracy is impossible.  However, that really wouldn't be needed as long as the appearance and performance of the computer models were reasonably close to the originals, and that the result of any battle fought was plausible.  For the record, I have fought the battle of Savo Island many times using the Fighting Steel program, and the only result I have NOT achieved is the historical one.  However, I digress.  3) One essential requirement I missed in my original post, was for a scenario editor to be included.  This certainly needn't be as detailed as the Fighting Steel editor, which is the best I have ever come across for a naval wargame, however, I would recommend that it should model training levels, ditto ammo, damage from previous actions and also weather.  I don't know whether it would be practical to model lack of stability in rough weather or due to battle damage.  However, it would be huge fun attempting to command some of those French tumblehome pre-Dreadnought monstrosities, and it would really take the cake if they could be induced to capsize!!  Again, I digress.  Most importantly of all, the game should include a database of SOME historical warships which our own designs - historical, ahistorical or fictitious - can be added to.

I fully realise that Ultimate Admiral Dreadnoughts was never created to rival (say) Jim Rose and Norm Koger's Jutland as an accurate depiction, but as a fast, furious and fun naval wargame, I submit that it should go far, PROVIDED that it pays a bit more attention to historical simulation than it does at present.

Edited December 19, 2020 by PongoDeMer

[HistoricalAccuracyMan]

On your database idea, they do intend to implement some feature like that for the campaign and maybe custom battles. I remember seeing a post from the devs about the campaign. If I remember correctly, it said that when it came to AI generated ships you could have the choice to check either "historical" or "unhistorical" ship generation and the AI would loosely follow ship design from the other nations during the time period you are currently playing in if you chose the "historical" option. The post went on to say that there would also be a database where players could submit their own unique ship designs and those designs would then be saved (if the devs select their design) and then if you chose "unhistorical" for the AI behavior in the campaign, it could/would pull a few designs from said database and replicate them in-game for you to fight against. Another big feature that was already mentioned for the campaign was the ability to retrofit older model ships.

I also wish there was a scenario editor where you could make your own scenarios...but we'll just have to keep waiting.

[Dannavy85]

 If it was historical, then surely it should have taken the form of the Battle of Hampton Roads, complete with authentic Monitor plus an equally authentic Virginia.  Ship design is a separate subject and, in this writer's opinion, it would clearly be much better handled by scenarios from a later period.

I'd say they got the ironclads pretty accurate, after all, the Monitor and Virginia were a stand off. Virginia's sloped plate armor matched Monitors big guns and the Monitor design spoiled many of Virginia's best shots. The only reason the fight ended was a lucky shot on Monitor's pilot house that wounded her Skipper. By that time the Virginia had to retreat to beat the outgoing tide. I did the same tactic Monitor's captain tried...came in at an angle to the Virginia's stern and shot rounds at her rudder and wooden hull to jam the steering and induce flooding. But still didn't win.