Game balance vs. Historical Reality

[Chromey]

historically accurate as possible. The only way a smaller ship could beat a bigger one is to either demast and derigg her or to win a boarding action. But until the boarding mechanic is updated it will be near impossible.

 

Also keeping the game HIST accurate will force more team work and less magic. That and better crews.

[Stuka]

My dad was in the navy and a while ago I asked him about a battleship vs destroyer situation and he basically said it would stalemate, destroyer would just run away because if it tried to fight, it would be decimated and 5" guns against the late ww2 battleships wouldn't really do much.Technically destroyers had torpedeos but to be in effective range to use those, you're probably sinking.

 

Realistically, the only way a smaller ship could win a 1v1 is if something lucky happens but I doubt there will be many 1v1 situations in open world as for starters,

 

a smaller ship by itself would be an easy target by itself

 

second, a bigger ship would be to slow to easily take down a smaller ship so s/he couldn't go against smaller ships for that reason.

[Taki1980]

i voted unsure.

 

I think that historical accurate dont mean you dont have a chance. When they add enough level of detail (winds,change of winds, partial winds on duiffrenct locations of the map, riffs,moral,officers,training,more LOD on sailing, gunner accuracy) there should be at least a chance for inferior ships to win a fight even against bigger ones.

 

I hope they bring enough variables to that game that can matter in a fight so the game balances itself

[Brigand]

My dad was in the navy and a while ago I asked him about a battleship vs destroyer situation and he basically said it would stalemate, destroyer would just run away because if it tried to fight, it would be decimated and 5" guns against the late ww2 battleships wouldn't really do much.Technically destroyers had torpedeos but to be in effective range to use those, you're probably sinking.

 

Realistically, the only way a smaller ship could win a 1v1 is if something lucky happens but I doubt there will be many 1v1 situations in open world as for starters,

 

a smaller ship by itself would be an easy target by itself

 

second, a bigger ship would be to slow to easily take down a smaller ship so s/he couldn't go against smaller ships for that reason.

 

Eeeh, you do realise that this game is about the age of sail? Almost nothing about steel hulled ships with engine and grenade spewing gun turrets applies to the realities of the sailing ship of war.

 

~Brigand

[shifty]

Eeeh, you do realise that this game is about the age of sail? Almost nothing about steel hulled ships with engine and grenade spewing gun turrets applies to the realities of the sailing ship of war.

 

~Brigand

but it is a very good example

Smaller ship is hard to catch, thats its strength. If open world is not only about deathmatch battles, small ships have their use.

 

Else as everywhere, everyone will be riding in Santissimas and Victories

[Hethwill]

Smaller ships have less sail area therefore carry less wind. They are also lighter.

 

A frigate ratio between weight and sail area surpasses the smaller ships we have at the trader level.

 

No, a smaller ship is not hard to catch with a purpose ship.

 

And yes I agree we cannot be tracing comparisons from the death match of Sea Trials towards the OW dynamic.

[Fennek]

Trying to be historic accurate doesn't mean it has to be unbalanced!

-for example: a brand new frigate is a lot more expensive than an older smaller ship! At first : the price; then maintaining costs; paying the crew; buying powder, ammo and food! Bigger ships can not be maintained every were ! you need special docks and craftsman if you want to keep it prestine!

While an old small ship is relative cheap to buy and to maintain!

Just my two cents

[Garbad]

Trying to be historic accurate doesn't mean it has to be unbalanced!

-for example: a brand new frigate is a lot more expensive than an older smaller ship! At first : the price; then maintaining costs; paying the crew; buying powder, ammo and food! Bigger ships can not be maintained every were ! you need special docks and craftsman if you want to keep it prestine!

While an old small ship is relative cheap to buy and to maintain!

Just my two cents

Good suggestion, but the problem with balancing based on cost is that sooner or later everyone will become rich, and thus, use the best gear.

[Taki1980]

Good suggestion, but the problem with balancing based on cost is that sooner or later everyone will become rich, and thus, use the best gear.

 

no. Not if you have to spent lots of money for Maintainence, wages etc.

[SerrialKiller]

I would prefer the more reall the better if you want to even it out and skills go play an arcade game this is Naval action. Defently nit wot nore potbs nuf said.

[admin]

Recent research on realism and nostalgia in games is showing this: 

• nostalgia: there is a huge gap between how your favorite old game really played and how you think it played then. 
• realism: same with realism. there is a gap what realism is and what you think it is/was. 

realism has a different meaning to each of you. Age of sail realism means you have to sit for 6 months in Gibraltar or be on a stationary patrol for 5 months near Minorca, fighting rats and scurvy. In 95% of cases you will not suffer from combat wounds - you will never see combat - you will suffer from hernia which was the most common injury in the british navy. We know that's not what you want

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Now see here, I love a good hernia just as much as the next ship Captain....  

[ObiQuiet]

We know that's not what you want

That's right. Some compression to make more fights have outcomes that hang in the balance of skill and luck would be a good thing in my opinion.

Otherwise I worry that we'll do far more running away than engaging.

Respectfully yours, etc.

[Lord Vicious]

Tbh is not thrue here you can repair

 

 

let put this as example

 

i am, on a 32 cannon fast frig  and my enemy is a bellona,  i take some hits from bellona running full speed towards his stern, i repair meanwhile maybe even using all my rep chances, now i am on his back, and if i play well i can stern camp him forever.

 

 

So is not that obvious,       even a bellona can have issue for example fighting 4 cheap brig, becouse maybe he will sink 1-2  at distance but the other 2 will stern camp forever.

[Domestikos]

Firstly, before adressing the realism issue the poster refers to, we have to see ourselves the battle change that will occur from the implementation of the 4th damage model to the game.Ships with higher planking won't be easy to penetrate from smaller ones with smaller guns.

 

That gameplay change has to be taken into cosnideration.I believe that you won't be able to win with a privatter for example against a Constitution except if the Constitution captain is so incompetent.

 

In reality, a privateer depending from when it would see the enemy higher class SoL coming, would just run off avoiding such a battle.It will be bad if a full 3rd rate broadside hits you in a Brig and it must remain like this.Getting uphold the wind and going for stern camping etc, this is skilland it doesn't have much to do with developers work.Developers work is to give at the ships the right abilities to each vessel.Smaller ships will always be faster than bigger ones but higher classes have more firepower.That's how it is and it must remain like this.

[Hethwill]

Smaller ships will always be faster than bigger ones but higher classes have more firepower.That's how it is and it must remain like this.

 

Smaller does not mean faster. Gameplay must not be built around this illusion. Game must be built with correct numbers ( as far as possible ) and then leave the players to use the ships to their best and worst qualities.

[Domestikos]

It's not an ilusion, it's a reality.A santisima isn't faster than a privateer.That's a general and obvious rule.If the privateer captain doesn't know how to use the wind in his favor and a santisima is faster, that has to do with skill nad skill as you said is what makes the amplification of the ship's qualities to the best.

 

Ofc ships have to be built with exact numbers and spects.

[Hethwill]

Ah good examples. Let's say a privateer versus a trincomalee. I'd say it is more of a comparison of speed.

 

Santissima purpose is to battle other ships of the same rate not to be patrolling coastal waters hunting for privateers. A Trinc might intercept though if the Privateer comes into range.

[Lord Vicious]

tbh more then speed is the agility that make a big difference

[Hethwill]

Yes, can save you in OW for sure. Remember, we are commanding ships with no cargo weight Really hope all guns, carriages, supplies and cargo gets calculated in. Obviously. 

[Nonesuch]

I just don't fancy seeing battles made up entirely of first rate ships.

[Guest raat]

I just don't fancy seeing battles made up entirely of first rate ships.

 

Well, that's not very historical so neither do I.

[Nonesuch]

I don't really know how you'd stop it though, without somehow limiting the number of them which can be used. Just making them insanely expensive would be rewarding the grinders.

[Guest raat]

I don't really know how you'd stop it though, without somehow limiting the number of them which can be used. Just making them insanely expensive would be rewarding the grinders.

 

Making them insanely expensive is the only way unless they're only available to the admiralty of specific nations and is limited by GL as game-masters.  Either way is fine by me.  The expense I would imagine would be so great that only the most dedicated of clans would have 1 or 2.  Which hard work should be rewarded so I'm ok with that.

 

If you make it easy for everyone to obtain one (regardless of time invested in the game and the skill to amass a fortune), then of course everyone will be sailing them.

 

That being said, if the recent games have shown, 1 or 2 players in huge ships vs. a bunch of players in smaller ships usually ends up in the huge ship sinking.  I've been in a couple matches the past 2 days where I've seen a team with 1 Trinc/Consti/Bellona vs. NavyBrigs and Privateers and the team without the big ship won every time...

[ObiQuiet]

Just an observation about two current themes of discussion here on the forums:

 

1. On the one hand we are upset when people drop out of a (storm) battle and make it an uneven match between the two opposing fleets

2. On the other hand, there is a push for realism and an aversion to artificial compression ship strength, which would even the odds for ships which might meet each other in the open sea.

 

Are the two reconcilable?