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Penetration and gun rebalance - review


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Captains. We plan to deploy the gun rework soon. Here is the short description for the review and discussion Goals for the rework Gun roles Gun roles will remain but they will b

Thickness buff - > cannons buff - > thickness buff - > cannons buff - > thickness buff...  Speed of all ships were lowered by 7% - > speed of all ships were buffed by 7% - >... 

Finally. I'm so sick of one sided tactics.  Other than that I like these ideas at first glance but I am still wondering how you will ever balance guns since the difference in armour between the h

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22 minutes ago, Conte D. Catellani said:

i'm scared to see an increase of price for crafted guns like long ones..we could have the  woods rework effect

in those days guns where a significant deal of the package to equip a ship 

overall i think that you can miss 100k reales easily  

you are not a poor kaptain so i don't see a problem for you 

 

if you look closely you will see that in my proposal the guns for the smaller captains are still available in abundance at any port for the the younger captain...

you don't have to be scared.

 

by the way you can produce 18 longs for a good price yourself :)

Edited by Thonys
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14 minutes ago, van stiermarken said:

Funny that we start that discussion again, what we had already in 2014. and here the facts about cannons and their penetration

cannon.thumb.png.8ee41639081509c32f199d68cf4e3078.png

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=8lKY5vigF2YC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

 

let us be aware of the the british and/or  the french guns 

it has a other metric system 

i do not know for witch guns this is in practise.

 

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Devs were trying to rebalance wood stats for two months. And this rebalance depends only on four main stats: hull thickness, speed, mast thickness, HP, everything else is irrelevant. Now they want to rebalance full damage model, where wood is just one of the pieces. There are only two ways: you know what you are doing with wood keeping upcoming cannon rebalance in mind or you try to rework all pieces apart with no idea how they fit in the whole picture. Everyone can read related topics on forum and check that wood stats where changed based on current damage model.

This approach can lead only to rework of the all combat mechanic and wood stats will be rebalanced again and again when it will become obvious that pieces do not fit together. It is a shame when you try to develop mmo sandbox and do not understand mathematics and math statistics. 

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Long guns/Navy Guns - Strong Penetration? and what makes Navy guns better? How can a new guy know ...

What is the difference in stats in these guns? Provide clarity on all gun stats... carros vs obbusier?

P.S. Please sort Shipyard ships recipes by rank and name..please it looks like crap

Edited by Audacious
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1 hour ago, Schnapss said:

This approach can lead only to rework of the all combat mechanic and wood stats will be rebalanced again and again when it will become obvious that pieces do not fit together. It is a shame when you try to develop mmo sandbox and do not understand mathematics and math statistics. 

We've been on this merry-go-round for years. 

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2 hours ago, Thonys said:

let us be aware of the the british and/or  the french guns 

it has a other metric system 

i do not know for witch guns this is in practise.

 

read the bloody book and or look into the stats there. then you will see that we have those guns already in the game.

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4 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Masts did not fall unless their rigging was compromised, even chopped from the base
a mast would still stand as long as it was supported by the rigging and everything else.

While the stays and shrouds secure the upper part of the mast, there must still be strong support for the lower part of the mast or it will topple.  This is why masts are stepped down into the hull of the ship (or, in the case of top masts, royals, etc. secured at their base to the top of the mast underneath them) and not just set upon the surface of the top deck.  Shooting through a mast will most definitely topple it.

Edited by Henry d'Esterre Darby
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3 minutes ago, Lieste said:

No. Shooting through a mast will make a neat hole in it.

Repeating these holes sufficiently will bring it down, eventually, but a yard wide mast will not be destroyed by a sub-calibre holing by 6 inch shot.

All the rigging is far more vulnerable than the masts, and the smaller spars more vulnerable than the more substantial ones. Wind load on damaged masts and spars is a higher threat than mechanical injury from shot, though that can be the cause for a mast to fall below it's threshold strength, especially when combined with injury to rigging.

Slim's claim above was that "even chopped from the base", or sawed through, a mast would stand so long as all of it's rigging is intact - this is incorrect.  We're in agreement that one hole will not bring down a mast, but the mast does require adequate support at the base or it will fall.

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6 hours ago, Lizzo said:

About what ship are we talking? Historically, line ships (3d rate and upward) were almost unsinkable even after hours of close range broadside exchanges. So I hope we won't see basic cutter penetrating 1st rates at 100m because in my opinion that would be just stupid 

Historically we would surrender 90% of the Time but we do not. Its physically impossible for a ship to be unsinkable. Its a matter of ammunition and time. If you have enough bullets you can sink a first rate with a 50 cal. Sooner or later there is no material left. Surrendering is admitting defeat. The only thing worse than admitting your defeated is death. That's why we do not surrender. One of the reasons I loved having officers. I did not let my officer die. His name was jesus lustig. I have to admit that the name played a major role.

A first rate will shatter a basic cutter at 100m and if you as a captain cannot keep the cutter for hiding under your guns you are not in the position to sail it. 

Edited by HachiRoku
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Interesting change! Seems much more realistic.

That begs the question of overpenetration. "Exit wounds" on the other side of the ship could be a big source of leaks, and very interesting for gameplay. I don't know enough about age of sail naval ballistics to know how common this was, though, in larger-rate ships considering the deck floors, cargo, etc. etc. that a ball would have to get through.

@adminIs this something you guys are considering building into the model? Maybe it's already in (I have seen broadsides on one side damage the other sides' armor)? Definitely would be wild to see balls blowing through the far sides of ships on a big broadside.

Edited by Captain TShirt
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I recall a Naval Action gun balance exercise (some years ago) where the dps meta was to put 4lb cannon on every deck of a 1st rate. Looks like we might get a revisit.

Buster (Knob twiddling continues).

Edited by Busterbloodvessel
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2 hours ago, Henry d'Esterre Darby said:

While the stays and shrouds secure the upper part of the mast, there must still be strong support for the lower part of the mast or it will topple.  This is why masts are stepped down into the hull of the ship (or, in the case of top masts, royals, etc. secured at their base to the top of the mast underneath them) and not just set upon the surface of the top deck.  Shooting through a mast will most definitely topple it.

Masts go all the way down to the keel for stability reasons. :)

nautical-terms.jpg

f1c35f5690bb5bddad10d84f89652e58.jpg

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10 hours ago, admin said:
    • Thickness difference between some classes will be reduced or removed

I am no expert, but i thought the hull thickness of ships is more or less proportional to its size, meaning that historically lineships (who were even made for exchaning broadsides) had much thicker hulls than frigates (who were mainly made for speed). If that is true, i would be happy to still see that in game after the patch :)

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5 hours ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

Masts go all the way down to the keel for stability reasons.

And how does the mast going all the way down to the keel aid the ships stability?

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I like the general gist but I have a number of questions.

 

1.  When you say that all guns should be able to penetrate a ships hull within 100m's, is this for guns against the ships that carry them (eg: an 18lb'er or 9lb'er against a Trincomalee) or for any gun against any ship (eg: 4lb vs Santissima)?

2.  How much do you plan on affecting accuracy?  I agree that it should be decreased, but combined with the accuracy increase of large caliber guns I'm concerned that we'll get a World of Warships type situation where the low tier ships are laughably inaccurate even at extremely close ranges while bigger ships are virtual snipers.

3. Is the effective range thing more of a guideline or is it a hard rule?

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19 hours ago, Thonys said:

Goodday everyone,

One issue that I don't see in the proposals is that currently the medium guns above 18 pounds are available via AI for a ridiculously low price
medium guns are available in abundance, above 18 pounds
which causes a one sided imbalance for the weapon maker and
where the price for that totally does not match the other guns

I fully understand that for the small captains the weapon must be available for a low and advantageous price, which is totally justified
but that does not alter the fact that medium guns above 18 pounds belong to the advanced captain who takes advantage of them at the expense of other guns above 18 pounds (such as 18 pounds long)

I would like to see an adjustment in the weapons above the 18lb medium that can only be made by the gunsmith
whereby the medium weapon under the 18lb medium by the Ai as now supplied remains in the weapon store as it is


it's just an idea
but I think it is a logical idea that does justice to availability

and the arms trade in general

I would say also allow shops to sale 24lb Carros.   Though I honestly think Obuisiers should be craftable since they aren't so widely used.  They could be like the longs are to the Mediums.   A lot of the dropped guns aren't use cause of there crappy states other than the Navy and the Bloomfields.   I also with stupid ships would drop more than a few or if you actually captured ship they came with other guns than just mediums (elite ships that is).  That would give guys a chance to hunt for cannons if they don't want to pay for them.

Edited by Sir Texas Sir
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All fine, especially with the effective ranges, contemporary gunnery tables are all fact in themselves and there's not "the one" that is absolute fact above all others, in which the others may present slightly different values, so the reasonable average for the game seems good.

The ship as gunnery platform is intimately tied with positioning relative to - wind and opponent - as long as we can sail a 74 gun ship fast and beating ( 74 as reference, but applies to all ), the indirect effect to the gunnery is improved. Ship can sail and shoot from and to, almost to the eye of the wind and can wear back fast enough to make up for another reload cycle without pause. Happens too fast. Would enjoy a thoroughly review of all rigging type capabilities to be more approximate to real angles and speed. If a rig cannot beat beyond 60º... so be it. 

On a sidenote, related to the subject, added another study book to library. 

 

 

 

Edited by Hethwill
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@admin considering you added higher caliber to ships because the gunports made them fit, it would logically and realistically mean that the aim section should depend on the size of the cannons mounted. Thoughts on this? 

image.png

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Hey there,

Could we explore, since gunneries are being modified, a change with canister shots

Some codes to combine efficiency (crew letal) between range + ship height difference.

Corvettes & frigates were extremely exposed (the close range rifle shots from crew to be added, like in Ultimate Admiral) when getting too close to a 3rd rate or higher vessals.

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so for a 4 pounder gun to be able to pen anything at 100m means they are going to have at least 100cm of penertration at said range???

what about carronades? if the effective range of a 42 pounder carro is 250m our godlike 32 pounders would be on 150 or 200? so what about the smallest carros??? are they just going to be 100m effective range? or are all the carros going to be effective up until 250m? and decrease acc and pen like hell when they go up the 250m range???

what about the 12 pounder to 24 pd meds??? to have them effective in this new model should is their effective range going to be somewhere in between 250m and 500m?

i cant wait to try the changes, see if the actual meta of shroud cay could be shaken with this patch if DPS gets good enough for make it worth it to use meds and double shot instead of the omnipresent 32 pounder carros.

nice reading ty @Hethwill

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1 hour ago, Hethwill said:

All fine, especially with the effective ranges, contemporary gunnery tables are all fact in themselves and there's not "the one" that is absolute fact above all others, in which the others may present slightly different values, so the reasonable average for the game seems good.

The ship as gunnery platform is intimately tied with positioning relative to - wind and opponent - as long as we can sail a 74 gun ship fast and beating ( 74 as reference, but applies to all ), the indirect effect to the gunnery is improved. Ship can sail and shoot from and to, almost to the eye of the wind and can wear back fast enough to make up for another reload cycle without pause. Happens too fast. Would enjoy a thoroughly review of all rigging type capabilities to be more approximate to real angles and speed. If a rig cannot beat beyond 60º... so be it. 

On a sidenote, related to the subject, added another study book to library. 

yes yes yes. all vessels but aboveall the 3rd rates and higher are way too agile!

 

 

 

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