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Penetration and gun rebalance - review


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Captains.

We plan to deploy the gun rework soon. Here is the short description for the review and discussion

Goals for the rework

  • Gun roles
    • Gun roles will remain but they will be slightly improved in their roles
    • Long guns/Navy Guns - Strong Penetration
      • Effective range for 42lb - 1km
    • Medium guns/Blomfields - Balanced penetration and DPS
      • Effective range for 42lb - 700m
    • Congrieve/Edinorogs - Strong DPS
      • Effective range for 42lb - 500m
    • Carronades/Obusiers - 
      • Effective range for 42lb - 250m
    • Effective range meaning
      • Gun will penetrate non-upgraded ship at this distance at 90 degrees hit angle. 
    • Penetration drops will be improved based on historical penetration drops but with effective ranges defined.
  • Range control. 
    • Every gun will have a role (even 4lb). All guns should be able to penetrate a fully upgraded ship hull and masts at 100m as they could historically. Including smallest calibers.
    • Heaviest guns penetration ranges will strongly improve. 
    • Every gun will have defined effective range both for masts and for hull
  • Thickness - Masts vs Hull
    • Thickness difference for masts and hulls will be reduced for ships, with effective distance of operation in mind. 
    • Thickness difference between some classes will be reduced or removed
    • Thickness for masts will be rebalanced for range - but ALL upgraded masts will be somewhat vulnerable at close range
    • Upgrades for hull and masts will not give invulnerability but instead will reduce or increase effective safe range. 
  • Accuracy
    • Accuracy will be finally rebalanced (including for tracking shot)
    • Accuracy will grow with caliber as defined by the Treatise on Gunnery and other historical sources on Ordnance.

Overall the changes will do the following

  • Bring range back into play
  • Define effective ranges better
  • Reduce thickness inflation and make it work gameplay wise
  • Make more guns usable (including small calibers)
  • Provide clarity on masts and thickness penetration in terms of range.

 

The list is not final and will be updated based on questions and comments. 
ETA - 1-3 more days.

 

update. Taking longer than expected.

Some data for review.. 

24LB Old curves

pZN8qZW.jpg

24LB New curves
zzAXi0A.png

Curve is not final and might get flattened a bit to give more control over distances for various guns.
On average 15cm thickness should reduce effective range of you being penetrated by 200m 
 

Base un-upgraded thickness for oak
95-100 - lineships/3rd rates
85-90 - 4th rates/frigates
70-75 - 6th rates and unrated

Masts will probably start at 105 for unrated and 150 for a first rate (gap might become lower - but need more internal testing)

 

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Captains. We plan to deploy the gun rework soon. Here is the short description for the review and discussion Goals for the rework Gun roles Gun roles will remain but they will b

Thickness buff - > cannons buff - > thickness buff - > cannons buff - > thickness buff...  Speed of all ships were lowered by 7% - > speed of all ships were buffed by 7% - >... 

Finally. I'm so sick of one sided tactics.  Other than that I like these ideas at first glance but I am still wondering how you will ever balance guns since the difference in armour between the h

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28 minutes ago, admin said:

Upgrades for hull and masts will not give invulnerability but instead will reduce or increase effective safe range

Finally. I'm so sick of one sided tactics. 

Other than that I like these ideas at first glance but I am still wondering how you will ever balance guns since the difference in armour between the highest and lowest tier ships is to big. I gave a good example in an older topic and still think its relevant. I'll have to look for it. 

Edit. I'm curious of what others think of this because I know many players dislike ranged battles. I love them. I love anything that forces players to think before yolo into battle like idiots. 

Edited by HachiRoku
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All this sounds great, but what about number of crew per gun will stay same? or is there going to be changes here as well???

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Can't say much at this time, seems this update needs to be felt in action.

But I sense like Congreves finally get a reason to exist, up to now I literally met nobody who would want them. Curious how they will prove to be worthy and if people will develop a taste for them finally.

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21 minutes ago, admin said:
    • Every gun will have a role (even 4lb). All guns should be able to penetrate a fully upgraded ship hull and masts at 100m as they could historically

About what ship are we talking? Historically, line ships (3d rate and upward) were almost unsinkable even after hours of close range broadside exchanges. So I hope we won't see basic cutter penetrating 1st rates at 100m because in my opinion that would be just stupid 

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Well a few 6 pounders should not frighten any 1st rate, and also to give these guns at least a little window where they can be effective even against the bigger ship its imho only going to be good for gameplay, it is the resurrection of the 7th, 6 and many 5th rates.

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47 minutes ago, admin said:

 

  • Range control. 
    • Every gun will have a role (even 4lb). All guns should be able to penetrate a fully upgraded ship hull and masts at 100m as they could historically. Including smallest calibers.
    • Heaviest guns penetration ranges will strongly improve. 
    • Every gun will have defined effective range both for masts and for hull
  • Thickness - Masts vs Hull
    • Thickness difference for masts and hulls will be reduced for ships, with effective distance of operation in mind. 
    • Thickness difference between some classes will be reduced or removed
    • Thickness for masts will be rebalanced for range - but ALL upgraded masts will be somewhat vulnerable at close range
    • Upgrades for hull and masts will not give invulnerability but instead will reduce or increase effective safe range. 
  • Accuracy
    • Accuracy will be finally rebalanced (including for tracking shot)
    • Accuracy will grow with caliber as defined by the Treatise on Gunnery and other historical sources on Ordnance.

Overall the changes will do the following

  • Bring range back into play
  • Define effective ranges better
  • Reduce thickness inflation and make it work gameplay wise
  • Make more guns usable (including small calibers)
  • Provide clarity on masts and thickness penetration in terms of range.

This is all sounds great, but people will hold their breath as this update will have huge effect on gameplay.

"all guns will have a role"
what does it mean? Does it mean that swivels will be able to do extra crew damage to lower ships when shooting from the top?
will we able to have different controls for the guns? 

Thickness of Masts vs Hull.
I think rebalance wise we should be comparing more Demasting tactics vs Leaks. Leaks are so nerfed that this tactic almost does not exist. Hopefully masts will get stronger and harder to drop.

Accuracy.
My vote is for reduced accuracy. So if you planning to increase accuracy with caliber then make best accuracy equal to what we have now and reduce with lower calibers. 

Range shooting is great!
"Define effective range better" - does it mean more or better tools? Will we be able to finally use spyglass for range estimation?

"Make more guns usable (including small calibers)" - this one really makes me shiver. Can we please have more info on this?

Leaks are also part of gun update same as masts. Will those looked at as well? Currently leaks tactics dont exist therefore winning windward position is irrelevant in the fight

Edited by Koltes
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"Reduce thikness inflation"

-From admin  3 day after add carta 9% , navy hull 7%, navy planking 10 .

 

I hope this will fix a lot of unbalance in the game actually.

Carronade so op in shallow when long gun are usless.

Maybe Medium guns will be intersting again , long time ago they was a viable gameplay in pvp

 

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27 minutes ago, Lizzo said:

About what ship are we talking? Historically, line ships (3d rate and upward) were almost unsinkable even after hours of close range broadside exchanges. So I hope we won't see basic cutter penetrating 1st rates at 100m because in my opinion that would be just stupid 

unsinkable does not mean unpenetratable from 100m

 

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11 minutes ago, DonH said:

Well a few 6 pounders should not frighten any 1st rate, and also to give these guns at least a little window where they can be effective even against the bigger ship its imho only going to be good for gameplay, it is the resurrection of the 7th, 6 and many 5th rates.

Quite the opposite I expect, demasting of those ships will be even easier for  players using ships of the line and one mistake will likely see half your hull gone at close range.  He who has the larger ship with most mods wins. 

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32 minutes ago, Urchin said:

Quite the opposite I expect, demasting of those ships will be even easier for  players using ships of the line and one mistake will likely see half your hull gone at close range.  He who has the larger ship with most mods wins. 

I dont think is going to be easier than it is right now, cuz right now its easy to demast a small ship on a SoL, anyway back to topic

 Now is just impossible to do dmg on a small ship unless u actively look after rake shots or u just shoot chains, those are ur only sources of damage as a small ship, so if with these new patch at least there is a small window of range where u can pen a SoL with your 6 pounders i call it good change, because that small window means that u can actually help ur team with DPS, and that comes with HUGE risk. 

I will wait and see how it is implemented, but right now I am excited about this, it could be like the resurrection of the Shallow waters, and not only that we could start to see more unrated vessels and frigates used more often, solo or in combination with fleets and that my friends is a win win. Diversity makes a game fun and fresh for longer.

 

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1 hour ago, admin said:
    •  
  • Congrieve/Edinorogs - Strong DPS
    • Effective range for 42lb - 500m

This section raises two questions from me:

1. Can we expect Congrieves to actually have a place on ships now?

2. Will we have gun drops for the missing calibers - like 42lb Congrieves and 36lb Blomefields and Navys? I'd ask about 1/4, 1/2, and 2-pood Edinorogs too but I'd already be happy if Congrieves finally became a useful weapon.

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1 hour ago, admin said:

Captains.

We plan to deploy the gun rework soon. Here is the short description for the review and discussion

Goals for the rework

  • Gun roles
    • Gun roles will remain but they will be slightly improved in their roles
    • Long guns/Navy Guns - Strong Penetration
      • Effective range for 42lb - 1km
    • Medium guns/Blomfields - Balanced penetration and DPS
      • Effective range for 42lb - 700m
    • Congrieve/Edinorogs - Strong DPS
      • Effective range for 42lb - 500m
    • Carronades/Obusiers - 
      • Effective range for 42lb - 250m
    • Effective range meaning
      • Gun will penetrate non-upgraded ship at this distance at 90 degrees hit angle. 
    • Penetration drops will be improved based on historical penetration drops but with effective ranges defined.
  • Range control. 
    • Every gun will have a role (even 4lb). All guns should be able to penetrate a fully upgraded ship hull and masts at 100m as they could historically. Including smallest calibers.
    • Heaviest guns penetration ranges will strongly improve. 
    • Every gun will have defined effective range both for masts and for hull
  • Thickness - Masts vs Hull
    • Thickness difference for masts and hulls will be reduced for ships, with effective distance of operation in mind. 
    • Thickness difference between some classes will be reduced or removed
    • Thickness for masts will be rebalanced for range - but ALL upgraded masts will be somewhat vulnerable at close range
    • Upgrades for hull and masts will not give invulnerability but instead will reduce or increase effective safe range. 
  • Accuracy
    • Accuracy will be finally rebalanced (including for tracking shot)
    • Accuracy will grow with caliber as defined by the Treatise on Gunnery and other historical sources on Ordnance.

Overall the changes will do the following

  • Bring range back into play
  • Define effective ranges better
  • Reduce thickness inflation and make it work gameplay wise
  • Make more guns usable (including small calibers)
  • Provide clarity on masts and thickness penetration in terms of range.

 

The list is not final and will be updated based on questions and comments. 
ETA - 1-3 more days.

Except medium gun (DPS)  the other cannons will keep the this reload time?

How these changes will involve double shot, double charge, grapes and chain?

Edited by Conte D. Catellani
add other question
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3 minutes ago, DonH said:

I dont think is going to be easier than it is right now, cuz right now its easy to demast a small ship on a SoL, anyway back to topic

 Now is just impossible to do dmg on a small ship unless u actively look after rake shots or u just shoot chains, those are ur only sources of damage as a small ship, so if with these new patch at least there is a small window of range where u can pen a SoL with your 6 pounders i call it good change, because that small window means that u can actually help ur team with DPS, and that comes with HUGE risk. 

I will wait and see how it is implemented, but right now I am excited about this, it could be like the resurrection of the Shallow waters, and not only that we could start to see more unrated vessels and frigates used more often, solo or in combination with fleets and that my friends is a win win. Diversity makes a game fun and fresh for longer.

 

You nailed it man! All those battles and all these people who only sail out in implacables, redoutables... are boring as hell. Mixed fleets is the most entertaining gameplay possible and I appreciate every change towards it.

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4 minutes ago, DonH said:

I dont think is going to be easier than it is right now, cuz right now its easy to demast a small ship on a SoL, anyway back to topic

No because now mast mods will have little to no effect at close range.  I've never been demasted in a Prince with Elite French and Kiritimati Masts, now that will significantly change.

Anyway see what happens but expect the change will favour bigger ships more, 5th and 6th rates will be seen even less than they are now.  

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I like the idea of the change, but I'm afraid the DM side of things will hold it back.
For one, ships did not sink from damage to the gun decks, only below the water line.

Masts did not fall unless their rigging was compromised, even chopped from the base
a mast would still stand as long as it was supported by the rigging and everything else.

It's a good step, but unless you see through to it that you fledge it out all around 
then it may fall short and end up another half-baked feature that spoils over.

 

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So that means that even running a well prepared ship for pvp, and by that i mean a ship built around its weaknesses effectively, can still be vulnerable at said weakness at the certain range, by these I mean; upgrades are going to be balanced to give a bonus/malus that are going to modify the ranges where they are going to be effective/vulnerable. And all this is because pen model is done around an all or nothing basis, as it kind of was during the era, so imho admin has acknowledged this effectively... I mean we will see how good their new model is in a few days, I expect the best.

Edit: sorry for my english, and writing on 12 inch tablet proves challenging while writing with d**k like fingers as mine

o7

Edited by DonH
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Goodday everyone,

One issue that I don't see in the proposals is that currently the medium guns above 18 pounds are available via AI for a ridiculously low price
medium guns are available in abundance, above 18 pounds
which causes a one sided imbalance for the weapon maker and
where the price for that totally does not match the other guns

I fully understand that for the small captains the weapon must be available for a low and advantageous price, which is totally justified
but that does not alter the fact that medium guns above 18 pounds belong to the advanced captain who takes advantage of them at the expense of other guns above 18 pounds (such as 18 pounds long)

I would like to see an adjustment in the weapons above the 18lb medium that can only be made by the gunsmith
whereby the medium weapon under the 18lb medium by the Ai as now supplied remains in the weapon store as it is


it's just an idea
but I think it is a logical idea that does justice to availability

and the arms trade in general

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Thickness buff - > cannons buff - > thickness buff - > cannons buff - > thickness buff... 

Speed of all ships were lowered by 7% - > speed of all ships were buffed by 7% - >... 

Devs "developing" 

🤔

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7 minutes ago, Thonys said:

Goodday everyone,

One issue that I don't see in the proposals is that currently the medium guns above 18 pounds are available via AI for a ridiculously low price
medium guns are available in abundance, above 18 pounds
which causes a one sided imbalance for the weapon maker and
where the price for that totally does not match the other guns

I fully understand that for the small captains the weapon must be available for a low and advantageous price, which is totally justified
but that does not alter the fact that medium guns above 18 pounds belong to the advanced captain who takes advantage of them at the expense of other guns above 18 pounds (such as 18 pounds long)

I would like to see an adjustment in the weapons above the 18lb medium that can only be made by the gunsmith
whereby the medium weapon under the 18lb medium by the Ai as now supplied remains in the weapon store as it is


it's just an idea
but I think it is a logical idea that does justice to availability

and the arms trade in general

i'm scared to see an increase of price for crafted guns like long ones..we could have the  woods rework effect

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1 hour ago, admin said:

unsinkable does not mean unpenetratable from 100m

 

I guess you are right, i am just a bit afraid that 1st and 2nd rates, who were made much more expensive recently, wont be as powerful as they are now anymore and thus crafting them will be even less motivating

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an effect I noticed was the following: it may not belong here, but it is certainly a side effect with regard to the weapons ...

because the speed and therefore the turn speed has been adjusted (it has become slower)

the window that arises for the guns to penetrate has got bigger .. (you see the side or the back longer)
which has increased the effectiveness of penetration ..

this is something that benefits reloading and penetration.
which can certainly be seen in AI that continues to penetrate like a rocket because of the slower speed to angel the ship

This is something that clearly floats to the surface in battles at Ai but also in PVP battles

perhaps the drop in speed on large ships and the turning speed is a bit too much or there must be an adjustment in one of the two (turn speed or general speed of the ship)
especially now that the weapons are being adjusted, we really have to look at whether or not to spoil the real gaming experience by ships that use it conveniently without a response from the big ships, (which can spoil the gaming experience)

 

this phenomenon can not be overlooked ...this can become a serious issue.

Edited by Thonys
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2 hours ago, admin said:

Thickness - Masts vs Hull

  • Thickness difference for masts and hulls will be reduced for ships, with effective distance of operation in mind. 
  • Thickness difference between some classes will be reduced or removed
  • Thickness for masts will be rebalanced for range - but ALL upgraded masts will be somewhat vulnerable at close range
  • Upgrades for hull and masts will not give invulnerability but instead will reduce or increase effective safe range. 

 

I hope the amendments to the method of shooting will not be long in coming. I sent you in a private message those developments (about the method of zeroing) that you asked for on the stream.

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