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Crankey

Simple Friendly Damage Solution

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As a group of enthusiasts we were spit balling this around a couple of weeks ago. Perhaps less important during testing but a simple solution to friendly fire and collision at release.

 

Damaged caused is real. It happened, fog of war, stupidity, heat of the moment bad decision etc. During the game the damage stands.

 

The ship causing the friendly damage has double the points removed from its match score to a minimum of zero points. (Think of this as an on the spot Court Martial inquiry fine and slap on the knuckles). Should point scoring not be taking place, then the fine could be applied as a currency cost either 'as well as' or instead.

 

As the game applies damage and collates points scored I would have thought that blue on blue damage could be recorded relatively easily and then the 'fine' applied for the end of match result.

 

Your thoughts ?

 

Posted on behalf of

 

Sea Lords Virtual Fleet Soundboard group  Join Here

 

Captains

 

Crankey

Caldwell

Master_Scrub

Heneage Dundas

Robert Danforth

Edward Vernon

Patrick Walsh

Llewellyn Jones RN

FLGibsonJr

Edward Harvey

Jack Aubrey

 

Aplogies if we are repeating anyone elses suggestion here I couldn't locate a direct comparison post.

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Sounds good to me, just one issue for the sea trials is that this does not affect people who have all the ships unlocked or are playing a ship they do not need dmg on. It would still be bad for their stats, but not affect them other than that.

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Sounds good to me, just one issue for the sea trials is that this does not affect people who have all the ships unlocked or are playing a ship they do not need dmg on. It would still be bad for their stats, but not affect them other than that.

 

Yes for the sea trials this would not be relevant, but if a currency cost in the final release was added then there would be a cost associated.

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The only problem I see is that damage points don't really act as a deterrent for someone already friendly firing. Once people get mad they don't care if they lose all their damage points, and trolls wont either.

 

I would rather see the damage reflected back on your own ship. While obviously unrealistic it would completely stop friendly fire/ramming greifing as you have nothing to gain from doing it. Until you can pick and choose who you battle with or sail with on the OS we are stuck with random people and random trolls.

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If a brig is sailing where it shouldn't, blocking an SOL's line of fire, it absolutely deserves to get smacked with a half-dozen 32-lb shot. So long as the rest of the broadside hits home. You can cost your team a match that way, acting like a human shield for the enemy. I don't lose any sleep about putting holes in a friendly's jib, either.

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If a brig is sailing where it shouldn't, blocking an SOL's line of fire, it absolutely deserves to get smacked with a half-dozen 32-lb shot. So long as the rest of the broadside hits home. You can cost your team a match that way, acting like a human shield for the enemy. I don't lose any sleep about putting holes in a friendly's jib, either.

 

I don't disagree on poor placement of small ships having to deal with friendly fire as it whisks through their rigging, but the cost in points to you compared to the points you score with that broadside on your enemy target would be minimal.

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My snow and a trinc were working over the end of a coni. We were both almost sunk, and the decision was made for us both to come about and hammer his stern in the hope of sinking. That meant I took repeated hits from the trinc. I was fine with this, as our combined fire did indeed sink him. Under a FF system, working together like that, would mean one of us gets punished for FF?

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I don't disagree on poor placement of small ships having to deal with friendly fire as it whisks through their rigging, but the cost in points to you compared to the points you score with that broadside on your enemy target would be minimal.

Yeah, I'm not opposed to the petition. When I have an SOL I don't care about points anyhow.

 

But there should be no sterner penalties than that.

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My snow and a trinc were working over the end of a coni. We were both almost sunk, and the decision was made for us both to come about and hammer his stern in the hope of sinking. That meant I took repeated hits from the trinc. I was fine with this, as our combined fire did indeed sink him. Under a FF system, working together like that, would mean one of us gets punished for FF?

 

Correct. This is Alpha, you have no reason to watch your gunnery carefully, you have no "After Game Cost or Effect". tbh two ships firing at an enemy stern both more manouvrable than it should have been able to fire without hitting each other.

 

Perhaps with the smaller amount of guns you had in your Snow you should have given priority to the Trinc to be in position to damage his stern and supported that fire when you could. Perhaps you should have stood off and reduced the Connies sails to make it easier for the trin to stay under her stern with less risk.

 

All situational but we are talking about release game version here. Alpha test is a different dog altogether

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The only problem I see is that damage points don't really act as a deterrent for someone already friendly firing. Once people get mad they don't care if they lose all their damage points, and trolls wont either.

I think it's a good start. We need to start someplace, and I think there is a positive recommendation that can be built upon with the idea presented.

This only discussed dmg & cost. Depending on how complex, it might be feasible to apply additional penalties in the case of:

- most damage to friendly ship (eg, a ship takes, whatever, 5000 damage to sink... And a friendly did x%... 50% as example, then higher penalty).

- "x" number of broadsides, to same person, additional penalty.

- a sinking of friendly, other penalty.

Penalties can be cost. But we have an admiralty rate or some equivalent coming... There will be more options to press.

Great idea SLVF.

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At every start they form a line. And when everyone stay in line there will be no need for this system. But the line breaks with enemy contact. That's because you sail with random people.

In my opinion it can be compared with 3 type of convoys

A merchant convoy. They have fear sailing randomly and shooting everything

A merchant convoy garded by some man o war. They have panic make faults shooting at each other. There is someone who gives commands by chat, but not everybody follows this commands.

And there's a squadron. They all have Teamspeak and their commands. They hold their line stay to tactic and there will be no friendly fire.

The first and second typ is how it is today. The 3. One will appear later when you can join as group.

So everything is fine

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As a group of enthusiasts we were spit balling this around a couple of weeks ago. Perhaps less important during testing but a simple solution to friendly fire and collision at release.

 

Damaged caused is real. It happened, fog of war, stupidity, heat of the moment bad decision etc. During the game the damage stands.

 

The ship causing the friendly damage has double the points removed from its match score to a minimum of zero points. (Think of this as an on the spot Court Martial inquiry fine and slap on the knuckles). Should point scoring not be taking place, then the fine could be applied as a currency cost either 'as well as' or instead.

 

As the game applies damage and collates points scored I would have thought that blue on blue damage could be recorded relatively easily and then the 'fine' applied for the end of match result.

 

Your thoughts ?

 

 

Yeah, I'm not opposed to the petition. When I have an SOL I don't care about points anyhow.

 

But there should be no sterner penalties than that.

 

Maturing succinctly points out the probelm with the original proposal as it stands, is that past a certain point when players have acheived the ability to do the most damage with friendly fire, the penalty has no teeth.

 

The object would be to create a mechanic to overlook the occasional and accidental teamshooting incident but impose penalty enough enough on those who do it habitually to make them stop. I would amend the initial proposal to say friendly damage up to a certain percentage of that player's damage can be ignored, but once that threshold is exceed that player can lose points at a rate of x2 damage with the ability to go into the negative, and that if reaching zero in a ship class that player after the battle is reverted to the next lower ship class with the negative damage to make up. In my mind the damage threshold being somewhere between four and eight percent.  That allows for some accidental shootings, and will put a stop to habitual offenders.

 

Of course, this only deals with the issue in the game as it stands. In a leter open world implementation where the ladder system may not be in effect, any idea in a similar vein will be quite useless.

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Maturing succinctly points out the probelm with the original proposal as it stands, is that past a certain point when players have acheived the ability to do the most damage with friendly fire, the penalty has no teeth.

 

The object would be to create a mechanic to overlook the occasional and accidental teamshooting incident but impose penalty enough enough on those who do it habitually to make them stop. I would amend the initial proposal to say friendly damage up to a certain percentage of that player's damage can be ignored, but once that threshold is exceed that player can lose points at a rate of x2 damage with the ability to go into the negative, and that if reaching zero in a ship class that player after the battle is reverted to the next lower ship class with the negative damage to make up. In my mind the damage threshold being somewhere between four and eight percent.  That allows for some accidental shootings, and will put a stop to habitual offenders.

 

Of course, this only deals with the issue in the game as it stands. In a leter open world implementation where the ladder system may not be in effect, any idea in a similar vein will be quite useless.

 

Why would the OP be useless ? I don't understand your statement that once a certain friendly damage threshold is achieved the penalty has no teeth ? Please explain.

 

This post was aimed at Release version with some benefits now if you weren't maxed out in the ship you were in. (And lets face it if you've got to the Santi even  in Alpha you really don't want to damage your ship with a friendly ram nor remove a fellow captain who can help keep you alive later in the battle and help th team win) damage would hopefully be accidental. Someone sails across your broadside you've just fired etc.

 

The only difference to someone in a Santi in Alpha Test would be his game score is reduced. If we get a decent leaderboard system this will do no more than hurt their stats. But this is only Alpha, the end game will have currency and prestige of some description that could be penalised.

 

I also don't see why we should ignore the first few percent of friendly damage. Its still friendly damage. Unless you are acting the total idiot griefer your positive score should far outweigh any negative.

 

Did you miss the section stating that if no 'point penalty' could be applied then a 'currency' penalty could be used. By currency this could be hard game cash or experience, or an honour system, reputation etc etc. or any combination of the above. Again aimed at final release not Alpha :)

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Unless... Unless.... Unless... Well, we need to see the game design...

Since 2013 (iirc), the idea of Admiralty controlled SOL granted based on standing had been discussed.

Too much speculation, but based on that, a captain "court martialed" for negligently and purposely firing upon a friendly could lose the standing that allowed them to sail their SOL.

It can be quite useful.

Edit : ninja post got in there, Crankey makes good points as well.

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Did you miss the section stating that if no 'point penalty' could be applied then a 'currency' penalty could be used.

 

Actually, I did. Apologies. I've discovered today, here and elsewhere, that I actually cannot read.

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LoL Don no matter, theres lots of forum to get through, speed reading is everyones worst enemy :)

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The only problem I see is that damage points don't really act as a deterrent for someone already friendly firing. Once people get mad they don't care if they lose all their damage points, and trolls wont either.

 

I would rather see the damage reflected back on your own ship. While obviously unrealistic it would completely stop friendly fire/ramming greifing as you have nothing to gain from doing it. Until you can pick and choose who you battle with or sail with on the OS we are stuck with random people and random trolls.

 

This would allow some furball tactics and could be abused.

 

I hope with Damage model 4.0 and, once currency hits, a fine for the friendly fire for every damaged module/whatever we can solve this the easy way.

 

Trolls will be trolls and griefer will be griefer.. it happens. Just don't get mad and carry on. Some people are way to egocentric sometimes and make it their personal crusade to tell everybody and their cat how they just ate a braodside and how incredibly unfair it is and how this lost the game. Yes, it sucks... but this is real life and there are malicious people around. You have to learn to deal with it.

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With ramming counting as "damage" could be tricky,

 

Let me give an example... You're in your Surprise and another Surprise (a friendly that is) is sailing parallel with you, he's to your starboard. He starts to turn port toward you and results in you smashing into his port side because you couldn't turn away in time. You just rammed him even though it was really his fault for turning into you and getting in front of your bow.

 

So now you have to be punished because you "rammed" into a teammate. How will situations like this work? 

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Tbh, I would not know. Generally, the concept is sound, and the specific details to be developed.

Do you have a recommendation?

In short, I would say "yes" it counts. However, given the amount of damage it does (to both), I wouldn't think much penalty.

Going back to the concept of penalty based on a percentage threshold of damage, these types of accidents can be of no impact (eg, the Ramage was 5% of total ship dmg prior to sink... If threshold is 40% for penalty, then no infraction).

Maybe there are better ways, but if the concept is deemed worth, then the specific details can be worked :)

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I'd like to see a 'forgive' system implemented for honest mistakes. I once unloaded a broadside into a friendly ship, fortunately I was not using doubles so the damage was not as severe as it could have been.

 

The guy was very polite about it, acknowledging that it was a mistake. But I could see 'fog of war' being very harsh on someone if the system you suggest is implemented.

 

Other games have tried 'forgive' systems in the past. You can simply opt to not punish someone for friendly fire. Or you can put it to a kick vote right then and there. It's different from a simple kick vote system in that you can't initiate a kick vote unless you have actually been the victim of friendly fire. I was accused of friendly fire once when I was behind someone with my yacht. He tried to claim that I de-armored one of his sides. Obviously the guy was new and did not know that a yacht doesn't have that kind of firepower, lol.

 

I have not seen friendly fire to be too much of a problem so far. For one, it takes a tremendous amount of time/effort to actually sink a ship, much less a friendly one. It's not like a first person shooter where you can do someone in with a headshot and its over. I suppose friendly fire could be a serious problem if an SOL were to fire on a friendly yacht, but that of course leaves them open to being shot at themselves while they take time to reload.

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Institute a pop-up, on the spot court marshal with a "Do you wish to press your rights, and accuse this Captain to stand trial for negligence in duty?".

Yes/No.

No: that happens.

Yes: penalties applied per prior descriptions

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This is a complex and thorny issue and until we know more about the Open World economics etc. we clearly can't nail down all the detail, but we have tried to come up with a starting off point of a proposal, a foundation, if you will, to form the basis for discussion which it is doing....but also it is clearly raising points that cannot yet be answered. Please bear with us, keep your feedback coming and we will try and incorporate it over time into a more complete and rounded proposal.

 

Yours Aye

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Good topic.

 

I think firstly you shouldn't get any damage that goes to whatever score mechanic we end up with in the PvP arena/progression space.

 

Secondly a penalty seems appropriate (to your score), yes this WON'T stop it but it will help reduce it.

 

I also think some nicely voice acted yelling from your 2IC "Sir thats a friendly we are firing at" or some such would be nice, certaintly would have saved me last night when a friendly SOL ranged me off is Portside, then opened with all guns...then immediatly went oh...poop sorry...thought I was looking on the other side !!

 

I dont like in game damage being reflected back....

 

Perhaps a novel solution might be, if (with some in game feedback) you fire seperatly over some period of time on 3 friendlies or the same friendly your crew mutiny and you lose control of your ship for the rest of the game (or some cooling off period....effectively a friendly fire 'gun lock')...and the AI 2IC takes control ?????

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