Timber stats for next week patch

[Serk]

Those with access to Malabar teak will go for it. Those with access to African teak will use African teak. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Serk

[Jan van Santen]

9 hours ago, Serk said:

Those with access to Malabar teak will go for it. Those with access to African teak will use African teak. 

Access is not an issue on PvE. While historically correct, the question remains: should it be an issue on PvP ?

My suggestion would be (if Devs want to stick with spawn in ports only...) to give all of the rare woods 1 spawn in a free port.  

Eg: African tk now is: Willemstad, Oranjestad and Fort Baai.

Instead: Willemstad, Oranjestad and Aves.

(Ofc I still think the ways proposed earlier are better: drop from loot, chests, event....)

The "free port spawn" could even generate more action on PvP server imo.

[Lizzo]

I think Rangoon Teak as planking is currently broken, it is basically worse than any other fir in every aspect. I guess it should have like +2-4% thickness instead of -12% so it is slower, but at least tankier than fir planking

[Jan van Santen]

22 minutes ago, Lizzo said:

I think Rangoon Teak as planking is currently broken, it is basically worse than any other fir in every aspect. I guess it should have like +2-4% thickness instead of -12% so it is slower, but at least tankier than fir planking

rangoon/rangoon India base speed 12.38

fir/fir India 12.01

same as with locust, they will be worthless after next patch, current spreadsheet seems to suggest new england fir will be the new trader wood....

[Lizzo]

38 minutes ago, Jan van Santen said:

rangoon/rangoon India base speed 12.38

fir/fir India 12.01

same as with locust, they will be worthless after next patch, current spreadsheet seems to suggest new england fir will be the new trader wood....

Where are your numbers from? As with the new values, fir/fir gives +11,8% speed, rangoon/rangoon gives +11,0%. As frame wood i like Rangoon, because it gives at least some protection. As planking, as i said, it is basically worse than fir in every aspect.

[mikawa]

1 hour ago, Lizzo said:

same as with locust, they will be worthless after next patch, current spreadsheet seems to suggest new england fir will be the new trader wood....

omg, this whole discussion is so annoying. Why not make a daily wood, with superpowers that changes every day, shuffling all stats randomly together? I'll make a pause until this whole woods thing is halfway baken. See you ...

[Sir Texas Sir]

19 hours ago, Jan van Santen said:

Access is not an issue on PvE. While historically correct, the question remains: should it be an issue on PvP ?

My suggestion would be (if Devs want to stick with spawn in ports only...) to give all of the rare woods 1 spawn in a free port.  

Eg: African tk now is: Willemstad, Oranjestad and Fort Baai.

Instead: Willemstad, Oranjestad and Aves.

(Ofc I still think the ways proposed earlier are better: drop from loot, chests, event....)

The "free port spawn" could even generate more action on PvP server imo.

It prob would be best for both servers to have the woods randomly drop at ports.  That way no one person/clan/nation can capitalize on them.  Maybe have them as part of a rare loot drop on trade ships.  If the ship isn't sunk/captured it drops the wood off at that port.  Than it might drop it off at a diffrent port the next week.  So that way it's not always one place.  Most of these woods are from the old world so wouldn't they honestly be cargo from ships showing up with them?

And yes I know this means more PvE, but you know what folks.  BOTH SERVERS ARE PVE SERVES.  War server just allows PvP too.   So stop thinking of it as a PvP only server cause it is not.   Maybe if we encourage more of the crafters and PvE guys to return that left cause we took so much of that part of the game away from them we can get more numbers back and maybe more fights.  I know several of my clan members have left and not returned cause of the direction this game has gone to favor only certain player types.  Than you PvP guys can just buy the ships off the crafters and PvE guys that can build them for you.   That kind how it was working in the past.

[Je maintiendrai]

All I know is the devs need to balance the wood the way they want it to be and give the community some certainty  .

Lock the stats of the wood types and drop locations can be changed later on anyways if the community and the devs feel like it. 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Je maintiendrai

[Jan van Santen]

 

On 7/14/2020 at 12:30 PM, Lizzo said:

Where are your numbers from? As with the new values, fir/fir gives +11,8% speed, rangoon/rangoon gives +11,0%. As frame wood i like Rangoon, because it gives at least some protection. As planking, as i said, it is basically worse than fir in every aspect.

i used the status quo, current values. Checked on na map and in shipyard.

[admin]

due to issues on another project this hotfix with timber changes was unfortunately delayed. We plan to give it out asap (hopefully within 1-2 days (maybe on weekend or monday)

the final updated table will be posted tomorrow.

 

[Malcolm3]

4 minutes ago, admin said:

the final updated table will be posted tomorrow.

Thanks.
Hope it will be the last balancing/changing of Woods.

[Sea Archer]

I still hope that all players have a fair chance to get every wood. Having woods only in certain ports, that are non capturable or protected by HDF will not help to increase the fun or PvP.

Even now no one trys to capture Cartagena with it's tar. 

To avoid that some wealthy players monopoly the fine woods, they should not be tradable via contracts. Even contracts for those nice things like Cartagena tar should be removed. If you want that stuff, be there and buy it.

[Henry Long Castle]

Damn, I just made a Bermuda S /WO S Constitution... I used WO S for planking since teak didnt give any speed bonus  
I knew I should have waited more...

Btw a kind  request to all, please do not get obsessed over balance. By having even more woods than before and even more stats, trying to balance all that to the point that every build is viable as some would like to see, is almost madness. There are going to be woods that are OP, there are going to be woods that are useless. It is what it is. 

If my maths are right there are 594 unique combinations of woods you can use at this moment. I dont believe that expecting even 50% of these to work just fine is realistic. 

Edit: changed the number to 594 as @Lizzo pointed out.

Edited July 18, 2020 by Henry Long Castle

[Lizzo]

5 hours ago, Henry Long Castle said:

If my maths are right there are 756 unique combinations of woods you can use at this moment.

There are 594, as you can only use 22 out of 27 available woods for planking

[Henry Long Castle]

5 hours ago, Lizzo said:

There are 594, as you can only use 22 out of 27 available woods for planking

ty forgot about that

[Thonys]

if you  ask me it does not matter what kind of wood i will take 

i will sink for sure ....and do 5 knots against the wind

and with a boost i will outsail a cutter in my lgv 

so what's the big fuss all of a sudden  0.o

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

594 ways of experimenting, but you bet the disciples of 'meta church' will end up again with their only 2 being feasable, preaching armageddon to the non-abiding infidels. ^^

Edited July 18, 2020 by Cetric de Cornusiac

[admin]

On 7/13/2020 at 10:02 PM, Redman29 said:

 

Now with the new stats. African Teak, Malabar Teak, Teak (S), and Danzig Oak have the best speed values of the ones listed above. Since they have the same speed values, Teak (S) will struggle to disengage from a Malabar Teak or African Teak ship in which it has little chance of winning a fight against. Danzig Oak is the least hit out of this as it still has the possibility to try and close the distance and make it's hp work in it's favor. The ones that really get hit hard are Oak (S), Italian Larch, White Oak (S), and Sabicu (S). Oak (S) and Italian Larch which will struggle in a fight against the super teaks no longer have the possibility to disengage, where as before they did. With White Oak (S) and Sabicu (S), which could fight the super teaks if they were able to close the distance and make their hp work will now struggle as the speed difference has gone from marginally similar to 3-3.8% faster. This means the super teaks will be able to control the distance, thereby ensuring that White Oak and Sabicu have no chance of being able to compete by closing the distance in which they can use their hp pool to their advantage. 

African Teak and Malabar Teak were already extremely strong but with their speed it enabled other ships to somewhat compete or have a chance a competing or the very least to disengage. With their proposed speed, combined with their high thickness values and ok hp values then they will be able to control the range of almost every engagement and a ship that can close the distance to them won't have the hp to fight them. 

That's the reason for my suggestion of their speed being staggered and I would honestly make Malabar Teak slower than African Teak if you choose to stagger them, but still keeping them within .5% difference of one another. 

Thanks for the very thoughtful analysis. This short post will explain everything to you. Many wont understand but you will.

Premise

Previous cost balancing system was a huge idiocy. It was based on weights and historical prices and as a result - no balance no growth of cost with power. No choice - No decisions. 

• 4rd rate weight 2000 victory weight 3500 - here we go. 2016 state was  4th rate 200000 reals, first rate 350000 reals. Totally stupid. 
  • Next step - lets make first rate 600k. Stupid again...
• Same with woods. Basic fir 4 reals, live oak just 40 reals.. What a joke.

Deliberations
Only now after researching progression systems thoroughly we came to proper conclusions. Because there is no death and no limitations of supply in game there is no real cost and the growth of cost with power should be exponential. 

• If 1v1 the chance to win in a 4th rate (average) is 1 to 10 the cost should be no less than 10x 
• AND MORE.. every additional % of power should cost 10x more.  So the real difference between 4th rate and 1st rate should be 100x

 

Solution

If African oak is balanced nobody will want it. 
Seasoning of timber slightly this and better woods became drastically more expensive. New woods finish the plan. We are no longer looking for balanced outcomes in rare goods.

If you got something rare - you are going to be damn sure you got something really good and very very expensive.

Here is the new paradigm

 

Now please understand why we had to have a staggered approach to stat changes
System had to be unbalanced first so players get detached from old stats. Otherwise they would be upset more. So we needed 2 step change in stats

New stats will suit new woods better,

• they are closer to reality in statis and janka hardness and crushing strength and dried weight
• AND have an exponential cost growth based on market rates
• AND they are VERY limited in supply, so they wont unbalance the game.

 

So would be great to hear proposals after you heard the design direction.

[Lizzo]

I personally really like this design direction and can't wait for the final timber stats, but i guess many players will be unhappy unfortunately. I hope things will calm down quickly after the forthcoming changes

[Despe]

1 hour ago, admin said:

Thanks for the very thoughtful analysis. This short post will explain everything to you. Many wont understand but you will.

Premise

Previous cost balancing system was a huge idiocy. It was based on weights and historical prices and as a result - no balance no growth of cost with power. No choice - No decisions. 

• 4rd rate weight 2000 victory weight 3500 - here we go. 2016 state was  4th rate 200000 reals, first rate 350000 reals. Totally stupid. 
  • Next step - lets make first rate 600k. Stupid again...
• Same with woods. Basic fir 4 reals, live oak just 40 reals.. What a joke.

Deliberations
Only now after researching progression systems thoroughly we came to proper conclusions. Because there is no death and no limitations of supply in game there is no real cost and the growth of cost with power should be exponential. 

• If 1v1 the chance to win in a 4th rate (average) is 1 to 10 the cost should be no less than 10x 
• AND MORE.. every additional % of power should cost 10x more.  So the real difference between 4th rate and 1st rate should be 100x

 

Solution

If African oak is balanced nobody will want it. 
Seasoning of timber slightly this and better woods became drastically more expensive. New woods finish the plan. We are no longer looking for balanced outcomes in rare goods.

If you got something rare - you are going to be damn sure you got something really good and very very expensive.

Here is the new paradigm

 

Now please understand why we had to have a staggered approach to stat changes
System had to be unbalanced first so players get detached from old stats. Otherwise they would be upset more. So we needed 2 step change in stats

New stats will suit new woods better,

• they are closer to reality in statis and janka hardness and crushing strength and dried weight
• AND have an exponential cost growth based on market rates
• AND they are VERY limited in supply, so they wont unbalance the game.

 

So would be great to hear proposals after you heard the design direction.

I was not entirely convinced of the teak statistics, but this answer has convinced me about the new patch. However I have a question ... I think that the cost of seasoned wood is too expensive considering the difference in statistics with normal woods, I think that a lower tool requirement (for example 1 tool for every 3 logs) could be fine

[Slim McSauce]

The money supply problem was exacerbated by DLC ships. With the cost of loss being diminished, most players just farmed for little risk.
These changes increase the delta and advances the position and status of skilled haves from the unskilled have-nots.

New woods are another band-aid to a problem that was created. You need money sinks for those who have been able to farm thanks to DLC.
Those players do not experience loss in the same way, nor are they even playing in the same economy as natural players.

These woods will further exclude the more average and typical NA player. Most will not be able to afford such ships regularly.
Of course those who already play with a dock full of gold-tier ships will get more power. The regular will drop out of the competition.
 

[ChineseBatman]

On 7/17/2020 at 11:17 AM, admin said:

due to issues on another project this hotfix with timber changes was unfortunately delayed. We plan to give it out asap (hopefully within 1-2 days (maybe on weekend or monday)

the final updated table will be posted tomorrow.

 

Can’t remember a single occasion you @admin have kept to a deadline. Months now waiting for woods to be finalised. Months now there has been people leaving the game due to the unprofessional behaviour, uncertainty of anything in the game. Why bother crafting ships that are going to potentially be useless the next day? Sort it out and fast! In my company or any credible company you would of been sacked years ago. 

Edited July 20, 2020 by ChineseBatman

[Sea Archer]

I am not sure, if I understand correctly how you intend to introduce the new rare woods.

To give everyone the same chances those should not spawn in ports not everyone has access to and it shall not be possible to place contracts, so that it is not a question of over bidding to get them (not only for the very rich players).

Imo woods should only be available on NPC traders.

Still I see a big risk that these woods will open the gap between players even wider.

To mitigate this, I suggest to decrease the repair amount for the woods. That would keep the woods still special and powerful, but the other players would still have a (nearly) fair chance. 

[Cathal Brugha]

7 minutes ago, Sea Archer said:

Imo woods should only be available on NPC traders.

This would also give us commerce raiders more meaning and use.

[Sea Archer]

@admin 

Do I understand it right, that if a 4th rate needs 1000 logs to build, a 1st rate requires 100000 logs? So 100x the cost?