Marines

[Seleukos of Olympia]

I've been having a blast with this game, but there's one thing that's always had me scratching my head. Is there a point to having marines, apart from flavour? The appear to have a bit more morale than fusiliers and a bit less melee, but there's no other apparent difference. Are they any better at boarding operations? Is there some hidden bonus?

[Navalus Magnus]

4 hours ago, Seleukos of Olympia said:

I've been having a blast with this game, but there's one thing that's always had me scratching my head. Is there a point to having marines, apart from flavour? The appear to have a bit more morale than fusiliers and a bit less melee, but there's no other apparent difference. Are they any better at boarding operations? Is there some hidden bonus?

As i recall, they have better accuracy, but less strength when it comes to a melee.

[Bramborough]

On 7/10/2020 at 5:47 AM, Navalus Magnus said:

As i recall, they have better accuracy, but less strength when it comes to a melee.

Marines vs Fusiliers:  Slightly higher Morale & Stamina, slightly worse Melee (which seems kinda weird).  Same values in Spotting, Stealth, Accuracy, and Speed.  Marines also cost about 600 more than Fusiliers for raising a 150-man unit from fresh recruits.

TBH, I'm ambivalent that Marines are really worth the tech cost/reputation to research.  For that matter, I'm not sure even Grenadiers are, either.  Units ramp up pretty quick to 2 stars with good skills even with average officers; I'm kinda thinking that just sticking with Fusiliers is viable and more cost-effective.  (Brit campaign of course.  I know the American troop composition is different but am not familiar with it yet).

[Seleukos of Olympia]

Grenadiers seem to have better stats overall, so I expect they'd be consistently better than fusiliers as they gain experience. I haven't looked into the price difference, though.

[Bramborough]

12 minutes ago, Seleukos of Olympia said:

Grenadiers seem to have better stats overall, so I expect they'd be consistently better than fusiliers as they gain experience. I haven't looked into the price difference, though.

I played around with this a bit last night.  This is how much it cost me to recruit a 150-man unit from fresh recruits using Trade 22 muskets (which I had plenty in stock, so weapon costs were not a factor).

Fusiliers 2729

Marines 3399 (25% higher than Fusiliers)

Grenadiers 4485 (64% higher than Fusi's)

Skirmishers 4511(65% higher)

This was on Easy difficulty, and I did have several points in the crew-recruit-cost Career Point category.  So actual numbers might vary, but I would expect that those percentages probably remain pretty constant.

So, are Grenadiers better than Fusiliers?  Objectively, of course they are.  But are they 60+% better, i.e., are they "worth it"?  That's a more subjective question which will vary from player to player with different styles.   (Grenadier main advantage over Fusiliers/Marines are in Melee and Speed.  Morale & Stamina are same as Marines, only slightly higher than Fusiliers.  All three unit types share same values in Spotting Stealth Accuracy).  So a player who likes to use a lot of maneuver, charging, and close combat, yeah, Grenadiers are probably well worth the investment.  A more methodical style which relies on firepower in a tactically-defensive line-of-battle style can probably do just as well - or least well enough - with cheaper Fusiliers.

Worth noting:  the price difference pertains only to the initial hire (which I assume includes replenishing battle losses, although I didn't specifically test that aspect).  AFAICT, all personnel, regardless of sailors, land unit types, skilled veterans or fresh rookies, etc...all cost a flat 3 per man in maintenance.  So a Grenadier unit doesn't cost more than Fusiliers in ongoing wages.  With that in mind, yeah, I'll probably still keep using Grenadiers myself, at least a unit or two to have a good charge/melee option available if the fancy strikes me, lol.

(A bit off the main topic, I was mildly surprised to see that Skirmishers are roughly the same cost as Grenadiers, not significantly higher.  Skirms now strike me as a good investment, especially for a more static style that includes artillery.  Spotting Stealth and Speed values much higher than the other three types, and a little bit higher in Stamina/Morale, at basically a very similar per-man cost to Grenadiers...and as primarily arty spotters/recon, you probably wouldn't want/need as big a unit for combat purposes.  I haven't used Skirms yet, but will probably give them a try pretty soon...seems like they might be almost as OP as UGCW skirms, at least if paired with decent-ranged artillery).

[pandakraut]

1 hour ago, Bramborough said:

(A bit off the main topic, I was mildly surprised to see that Skirmishers are roughly the same cost as Grenadiers, not significantly higher.  Skirms now strike me as a good investment, especially for a more static style that includes artillery.  Spotting Stealth and Speed values much higher than the other three types, and a little bit higher in Stamina/Morale, at basically a very similar per-man cost to Grenadiers...and as primarily arty spotters/recon, you probably wouldn't want/need as big a unit for combat purposes.  I haven't used Skirms yet, but will probably give them a try pretty soon...seems like they might be almost as OP as UGCW skirms, at least if paired with decent-ranged artillery).

As of the last time I checked they are missing any kind of weapon that gives them more range than regular infantry, so this will decrease their power from UGCW a decent amount. Given the comparative lack of time limit in most of the battles, bringing a skirmisher for spotting and artillery should still be incredibly effective as long as you're willing to wait for the artillery to get there and do it's work.

One question would be is the dedicated unit worth more than just detaching skirmishers. The detached skirmishers should have close to the higher spot value while not taking up an extra slot. Though last I checked their sizes are so small that they basically shatter after taking any damage which does make them harder to use.

[Bramborough]

2 hours ago, pandakraut said:

As of the last time I checked they are missing any kind of weapon that gives them more range than regular infantry, so this will decrease their power from UGCW a decent amount. Given the comparative lack of time limit in most of the battles, bringing a skirmisher for spotting and artillery should still be incredibly effective as long as you're willing to wait for the artillery to get there and do it's work.

One question would be is the dedicated unit worth more than just detaching skirmishers. The detached skirmishers should have close to the higher spot value while not taking up an extra slot. Though last I checked their sizes are so small that they basically shatter after taking any damage which does make them harder to use.

Agreed, the value of AoS skirms isn't in combat power like their UGCW counterparts using scoped rifles.  Ostensibly, one might expect the Baker and Ferguson rifles to have a longer range than smoothbores, but either that's just false or it's not implemented yet in EA state of the game.

Your question about dedicated vs detached is a very good one.  I guess I've been just assuming that detached skirmishers have the same stats as their parent unit as far as Spotting & Stealth...but that might well be an unfounded assumption.  They do have the better Speed, so maybe they take on higher values in the other stats as well.   I don't know how to look up their stat values in game, but could be tested during a battle with a dedicated and detached skirm side-by-side, moving them back and forth to see how far away they spot known stationary enemies (and also how far away they lose their "hidden" icon).  That aside, the detached skirms are still very small and shatter-prone...that alone may still earn dedicated skirms a slot in a decent-sized land force.  Pretty expensive third-tier tech to research, though, for just one unit.

[pandakraut]

While detached skirmishers retain the stats of their parent unit, minus perks unless they changed that from UGCW, their unit type does change to skirmishers. That comes with the associated benefits of cover, speed, stealth, spot, etc. The spot value should be displayed in the bottom left unit info card when the unit is selected in battle.

[doublebuck]

3 hours ago, pandakraut said:

While detached skirmishers retain the stats of their parent unit, minus perks unless they changed that from UGCW, their unit type does change to skirmishers. That comes with the associated benefits of cover, speed, stealth, spot, etc. The spot value should be displayed in the bottom left unit info card when the unit is selected in battle.

In UGCW, I always use detached skirmishers for they are of good size but in UAAOS I hardly ever use them due to their small size but thanks for the good info.