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Beat to quarters: Port battles return to War Server

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On 6/25/2020 at 2:03 PM, admin said:

We totally understand that. 
But thats the only way to get the proof that the person placing the flag is not an alt and REALLY worked and risked something in a group.
We do not believe in magical ethical unicorns and prefer pragmatic working solutions. 
Attacking and sinking hard non-negotiating NPCs in risky zones is the only way to 100% guarantee effort (and not using alts)
 

Unfortunately your game-mechanics to this day never really enforced ethical behaviour. That´s why you lost faith in ethics and call the changes now "pragmatic working solutions".

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31 minutes ago, Genevieve Malfleurs said:

Unfortunately your game-mechanics to this day never really enforced ethical behaviour. That´s why you lost faith in ethics and call the changes now "pragmatic working solutions".

Ahh Amdin is right the patch was a big success don't you see all the Portbattles that are going on............ 

All the real RVR players won't do hours and hours of PVE to do RVR lol.... 

That patch might be the final nail in the coffin of this once great game 

 

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Posted (edited)

:( maybe you are right... !?

... but did they did hostility then ? was pve all the same ?

I'm lost in logic...

Edited by Hethwill

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9 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

:( maybe you are right... !?

... but did they did hostility then ? was pve all the same ?

I'm lost in logic...

Sure but it was like 10 to 20 minute 5 to 10 ppl now you have to do it for hours with 8 or more ppl against the home fleets and stuff it's still PVE but way longer 

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Swedish Berserker said:

Sure but it was like 10 to 20 minute 5 to 10 ppl now you have to do it for hours with 8 or more ppl against the home fleets and stuff it's still PVE but way longer 

Ah yes. Was insta PB, no chance to respond :) that is true.

Well... it is hours for some.

Tip: Mantua is open to all.

Edited by Hethwill

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10 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Ah yes. Was insta PB, no chance to respond :) that is true.

Well... it is hours for some.

Tip: Mantua is open to all.

I think the flag system is pretty good just the way you farm the flags is bad I do think insta Portbattles were really bad but I think we need a alternative for the flags 

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1 hour ago, Genevieve Malfleurs said:

Unfortunately your game-mechanics to this day never really enforced ethical behaviour. That´s why you lost faith in ethics and call the changes now "pragmatic working solutions".

I don't think it is fair to lay it on the devs to enforce ethical behaviour. There are players who are willing to do anything to win. You can't change players, and you should not even try. There are plenty of mechanics in the game that are there to avoid exploits/griefing, and are very annoying to griefers, but that create only minor nuisances to ethical players (I'd like to think I am in that group), and most of them, IMHO, are well-accepted by everyone. It seems that very often people get loud in the forum when their particular exploit is under fire...
 

17 minutes ago, Swedish Berserker said:

I think the flag system is pretty good just the way you farm the flags is bad I do think insta Portbattles were really bad but I think we need a alternative for the flags 

I think @admin is right in that farming the flags out of PVE removes exploits and some griefing. But importantly, it also slows down somewhat the RvR, which allows smaller nations to actually keep up (among other things). The three step process (HDF, flag placement, PB) allows different game mechanics, which I find good. I think there are two remaining questions:

  1. does it slow RvR too much, so that it becomes a pain? We still don't know. Let's have it for some time and have an informed opinion.
  2. does it strengthen the ability of large nations/clans to dominate even more? Perhaps. In particular, defending against flag placement seems really difficult for a smaller nation /clan where 5 o 10 players cannot respond within 30 minutes. But, we still don't know.

My only bad feeling about this is the rather low flag drop probability. I can really imagine the frustration of sinking an HDF and not getting a flag, but we'll see. Let's allow some time for RvR to return and for everyone to get a feeling.

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But a HDF is done in 30 - 60 mins... Same as hostility. I think in the moment the total motivation is bad. I know we have flags, but no idea for an important target.

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7 hours ago, Daxav said:

I don't think it is fair to lay it on the devs to enforce ethical behaviour. There are players who are willing to do anything to win. You can't change players, and you should not even try. There are plenty of mechanics in the game that are there to avoid exploits/griefing, and are very annoying to griefers, but that create only minor nuisances to ethical players (I'd like to think I am in that group), and most of them, IMHO, are well-accepted by everyone. It seems that very often people get loud in the forum when their particular exploit is under fire...
 

I think @admin is right in that farming the flags out of PVE removes exploits and some griefing. But importantly, it also slows down somewhat the RvR, which allows smaller nations to actually keep up (among other things). The three step process (HDF, flag placement, PB) allows different game mechanics, which I find good. I think there are two remaining questions:

  1. does it slow RvR too much, so that it becomes a pain? We still don't know. Let's have it for some time and have an informed opinion.
  2. does it strengthen the ability of large nations/clans to dominate even more? Perhaps. In particular, defending against flag placement seems really difficult for a smaller nation /clan where 5 o 10 players cannot respond within 30 minutes. But, we still don't know.

My only bad feeling about this is the rather low flag drop probability. I can really imagine the frustration of sinking an HDF and not getting a flag, but we'll see. Let's allow some time for RvR to return and for everyone to get a feeling.

This isn't about fairness my friend. The entire roe/br/mission- & reward mechanics enforce being rough and a bully. It's just comfortable saying people behave unethically because they're people. We have a professional developer here. So we can expect professional mechanics, right?

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, furyGer said:

I know we have flags, but no idea for an important target.

Now that's an interesting point of view. The need/want of a target.

Edited by Hethwill

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7 hours ago, Genevieve Malfleurs said:

This isn't about fairness my friend. The entire roe/br/mission- & reward mechanics enforce being rough and a bully. It's just comfortable saying people behave unethically because they're people. We have a professional developer here. So we can expect professional mechanics, right?

This is right. People will always try the limits of mechanics to benefit. It is the game developers task to create mechanics, that cannot be abused.

In a game like this, it might not be easy, but it is the developer's task. 

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On 6/25/2020 at 3:03 PM, admin said:

We totally understand that. 
But thats the only way to get the proof that the person placing the flag is not an alt and REALLY worked and risked something in a group.
We do not believe in magical ethical unicorns and prefer pragmatic working solutions. 
Attacking and sinking hard non-negotiating NPCs in risky zones is the only way to 100% guarantee effort (and not using alts)
 

Lets take a moment and appreciate all these people that were willing to exploit their way to victory and led this game where it is now... Big thanks!

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On 6/30/2020 at 1:36 AM, Nixolai said:

But sir Riot we cant start portbattles when the flags does not drop to us

IMHO, The problem is not in flags.

The problem in motivation to organize port battle.

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18 hours ago, Daxav said:

 

My only bad feeling about this is the rather low flag drop probability. I can really imagine the frustration of sinking an HDF and not getting a flag, but we'll see. Let's allow some time for RvR to return and for everyone to get a feeling.

61 flag dropped since the patch. Perhaps players cant decide if RVR is better than peace and strong ships.

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10 hours ago, Genevieve Malfleurs said:

This isn't about fairness my friend. The entire roe/br/mission- & reward mechanics enforce being rough and a bully. It's just comfortable saying people behave unethically because they're people. We have a professional developer here. So we can expect professional mechanics, right?

Well, I did not mean to say that people are just people, and that's that. The real issue is that NA is essentially a war and conquest game. You are supposed to defeat and sink opponents through force. Let's just say that is in itself rough bullying. It is also a rather unforgiving game. There is no way around that. You can also expect for people to want to win. It is only natural. There are some people who must win no matter what. These are usually that ones that create the problems. For every rule they find an exploit, which they CHOOSE to use. These exploits are available to all of us, but most of us choose not to use them. 
I of course agree that the devs need find the best possible mechanics, but these mechanics must serve lots of different goals: keeping the game sustainable, fun, with a good balance of grind/reward, while allowing simultaneously freedom in player choices, and controlling in-game unethical behaviour. But there will always be someone willing to go on the fringe of the rules and exploit them. A good example is simply ganking. I honestly can't see the thrill, or the fun, or the pride, of attacking a couple of traders with three Redoutables (this happened to me once). It is just bad gaming. It is not fun for anyone. There is no challenge, not even large rewards. It is pointless, except if it gives you an ego boost because, sure,  you won. My point is that, for something like ganking, there is simply no solution in terms of game mechanics. Sure, you could simply not allow for such a tag, say when the BR is very off (1650 vs 50), but then we would have to discuss where the limit should be. Why should you not have a 1650 vs 500, or how is it different from 1650 vs 550. Surely 3 Redoutables vs 1 Redoutable is still quite off. I'm sure you are thinking of other examples, which may have better solution, and so on, but consider that people will always find a way to use the mechanics to their advantage. Happily, it is not MOST players that do this.
I think the devs try to solve one by one the known abuses of the mechanics. People keep finding new ones! It is an ongoing issue.

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4 minutes ago, admin said:

61 flag dropped since the patch. Perhaps players cant decide if RVR is better than peace and strong ships.

That's not bad I'd say. Indeed, nice statistics. Maybe you could display these regularly. That probably helps putting everyone's mind at ease. I personally like to be proven wrong with quantitative evidence! It does seem that plenty of flags are available, and obviously, more than PBs. 

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Daxav said:

I think there are two remaining questions:

  1. does it slow RvR too much, so that it becomes a pain? We still don't know. Let's have it for some time and have an informed opinion.
  2. does it strengthen the ability of large nations/clans to dominate even more? Perhaps. In particular, defending against flag placement seems really difficult for a smaller nation /clan where 5 o 10 players cannot respond within 30 minutes. But, we still don't know.

These are the good questions, really.

Point 1: Does it slow RvR too much?

Maybe yes. But slowing down the RVR can also be seen as an opportunity. RVR can stop being the central activity in Naval Action. At the moment, RVR is a specialty for an handful of players who do all PB's, others being just impacted by consequences with few possibility of interaction. So, in my opinion, less RVR can be an opportunity to increase the player base a bit, by stabilizing the map.

Point 2: Does it strengthen the ability of large nations/clans to dominate even more?

I think so, but future will confirm or not. This can be adjusted. HDF hunt is difficult for small nations. In Denmark/Norge, we are just in the middle of the two biggest nations (Russia and Sweden) and only Sweden has HDF fleets. We tried to "make" HDF Fleets near Gustvia. Just a suicide taking into account the difference of numbers of players, we were just looting chests to give them to the Sweden fleet waiting out. I heard yesterday that at least one small nation did negotiate with a bigger one the (very expensive) "right" to farm HDF in their waters. Let's see if this will work, if other clans than the one who received the "right" payment won't put a mess in... But even this kind of agreement is tending to reinforce big nations (Who pays? Who receives fee for no action?)

Other thing is number of player who are motivated for this HDF grinding. Most of our players simply refuse to do it. "Obliging" them will send them out of the game or of the clan, simply. Players are players. I know at least one clan that was initially created with the rule of "no participation to RVR". Most players do not want to spend time in activities they feel boring, especially if this activity takes all the evening.

I did two HDF missions As a result:

  • I did not commit in missions out of Gustavia. I just lost a lot of ships trying to get mates out of the shit. This was before Flags, just for chests.
  • The first HDF mission I made was successful, the HDF fleet was sunk but we got no flag. A following one, too late for me, gave 1 or 2 flags.
  • Following that, several missions were cancelled, because of lack of players (most of the ones who did it before, including most of our officers, don't want to do it anymore).
  • Yesterday, with too little number, we did one again... All our ships but two were lost, in the HDF battle or by further interceptions by second, third and fourth HDF fleet. The two survivors got some chests out, but no flag.
  • I can motivate myself to go on, but this is really boring for me. I don't know how long group interest will be stronger than personal preferences. I hate all 1st rates, all 2nd rates, all 3rd rates, all 4th rates and most of 5th rates.

From my experience, new mechanics are reinforcing big nation and making small nations weaker. But let's see future adjustments!

Edited by Aquillas

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what about the small HDFs??? when will those fleets drop flags as well?

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Posted (edited)

How about two HDFs never being allowed in the same area at a single time. Other day was ridiculous. Two hdfs (16 super reloading elite boarding 1st rates) at right angles to our fleet steaming full power and converges on us at exactly same time...

I was broadside to 7 Santis and oceans and was near a quarter structure after the first volleys. Had to immediately start a repair and tack to my strong side to bearly survive. 
 

So again Devs make sure there is no 2 HDF fleets in the same area at the same time. 

Edited by ChineseBatman

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1 minute ago, ChineseBatman said:

So again Devs make sure there is no 2 HDF fleets in the same area at the same time. 

I guess it's not that easy fomr programmer's POV - you should just be cautious not to get in the range of two at the same time, it should not be that hard I guess ... your incident is rather a very rare case issue ...

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Example composition of an HDF, for general information

image.png.26c05250c892c8ae7660407509032c44.png

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Also, I just checked in my last HDF battle record: I got boarded by HDF Ocean while I was at more than 4 knots...

@admin: normal/abnormal ?

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Just now, Aquillas said:

Also, I just checked in my last HDF battle record: I got boarded by HDF Ocean while I was at more than 4 knots...

This should not happen ... additional once again my question: have HDF fleets special armour?

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, mikawa said:

This should not happen ... additional once again my question: have HDF fleets special armour?

Didn't notice them better, at that level, than players or other AI like epic, but they have more HP. Their ability to turn and adjust position helps. Player team has to play nice, but is nothing out of this world. They do reload fast, so count on 3 broadsides for 2 of yours.

----

Planning for a second HDF is mandatory, planning for pvp while RTB is a plus.

 

Edited by Hethwill
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oh and i just remembered we managed to defeat a requin planting a flag a couple days ago... fast as hell and all that, it took 15 mins to get her to a position where we could just sink it easy, that goes for the ppl asking for more added weight for the flag carriers and their 100% statistics... failed

It was different when they brought a heavy flag fleet, couldnt sink the flag in time, and as the team was bigger and more ppl joining randomly defenders lost, they planted succesfully.

All in all,  comms and positioning are big, intel is precious, imho the system plays well and leave us the chance to choose between different strategies.

Still waiting to see battle transport in action and its price tag

o7

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