Way too much "detonations/flashes" since last patch

[swordmania]

So i've been playing around a bit and I noticed that, at least with late tech ships, BBs are absolutely worthless compared to BC. One out of two games (at least), I am bound to see a BB, my side or the enemy's, get ammo detonated or flash-fired. Several times, no matter if said BB is a 38k tons cardboard box or a 130k tons floating fortress, a SINGLE shell will blow the entire ship. I had a battle last 2 minutes because, somehow, a shell from my first ranging salvo (3 shots on tripple turrets) hit and detonated the target, a 55K US Battleship, at 30 kilometers. Meanwhile, I take a BC and just head straight into an enemy formation at around 36 knots, barely take a scratch, and get better results overall. It's getting a bit silly to be honest.

The overall balancing is getting there. I would say all ship classes are not far from the desired sweet spot. Though right now, I really think BBs are either way too weak against all forms of detonations, or detonations in general need to be softened down. I like having a challenge, but adding more and more ways to loose ships because "RNGsus" is frustrating; no matter if I play good or stupid, the sheer frequency and randomness of these things makes for a very mixed experience.

Edited June 24, 2020 by swordmania
spelling

[Tycondero]

Flashfires are not as common as they used to be. That said, I do encounter them from time to time. 

However, if you look at historical events, the few capital ship engagements that occured, there are also a couple of cases were flashfires quickly killed off an entire BB/BC. Low armor protection and heavy gun size amplifies flashfires and this is simulated in the game too.

Thus far I haven't seen very unreasonable results in the current game considering flashfire chances. I have fought plenty of BB and BC engagements which lasted well until the ship made too much water or depleted its HP pool, which took dozens of minutes of fighting in game time.

Only DDs seems to have become a bit too resilient. I haven't noticed BCs outperforming BBs by any significant margin. 

I'm not saying that you are not right, just that I didn't encounter as much RNG issues even though I did play extensively in Alpha 7.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Tycondero

[madham82]

In my recent torpedo balance match, I experienced the opposite. The 100K BB took one ammo detonation with almost no HP lost (or flash fire), but it had the best torpedo protection. The BC on the other hand had none. Think it was the 4th torpedo hit caused a flash fire and sunk the ship outright. When the new patch comes around I'm going to do some gun testing specifically with BCs.

As for the BC vs BB, the answer is easy...the ridiculous speed penalty is why they perform better. Anything doing 35kts or more is almost untouchable (max penalty comes in at 37.5kts from what someone mentioned). Just build ships for speed and firepower, forget heavy armor. 

[brucesim2003]

I've not once had a flash fire on MY ships. Might be something to do with the way I design them, idk.

The AI on the other hand, gets them most every battle. Though I've never seen a flash fire sink a ship outright. Tbh, I don't think they do enough damage.

[Somhairle]

So, something has obviously changed. Just replayed "Sink an entire fleet" and "German Pride". I 'Hooded' the BC in both. 1 hit each.

In SANF, it was a radar/blind fire "extended deck forward" w/ a 16" Super Heavy using TNT and it hit, then engine 1, 2, 3, rudder, ammo explosion, ?? Sinks due to structural damage. Only 21% identified at the time of hit.

In GP, it was the "Hood" and I hit her w/ a 15" light using Tube Powder, rear deck extended, fire, flash  fire, "Penelope" sinks due to structural damage.

Never had a 'GT'* before today, 2 in less than an hour.

 

*For those poor souls who've never read "Letterstime",  GT = Golden Twinkie, which is the nickname for a 1 shot kill in that series.

[Somhairle]

And here's #3, actually got a shot. Hit at 5:30 w/ 16" "mid deck penitration". 1:11 later, without another hit, I see "Main Gun destroyed, Barbette destroyed, Fire, Rudder damaged, got Flash Fire, and Sinks due to structural damage. 1 hit....*BOOM*. 3 in one day. I should buy a lotto ticket.

[brucesim2003]

18 hours ago, Somhairle said:

And here's #3, actually got a shot. Hit at 5:30 w/ 16" "mid deck penitration". 1:11 later, without another hit, I see "Main Gun destroyed, Barbette destroyed, Fire, Rudder damaged, got Flash Fire, and Sinks due to structural damage. 1 hit....*BOOM*. 3 in one day. I should buy a lotto ticket.

Read my OP here. That's a serious amount of flash fires. Funny thing - none of the 3 in that post was actually sunk by the flashes.

Edited June 28, 2020 by brucesim2003

[tvaishar]

On 6/24/2020 at 7:22 AM, swordmania said:

So i've been playing around a bit and I noticed that, at least with late tech ships, BBs are absolutely worthless compared to BC. One out of two games (at least), I am bound to see a BB, my side or the enemy's, get ammo detonated or flash-fired. Several times, no matter if said BB is a 38k tons cardboard box or a 130k tons floating fortress, a SINGLE shell will blow the entire ship. I had a battle last 2 minutes because, somehow, a shell from my first ranging salvo (3 shots on tripple turrets) hit and detonated the target, a 55K US Battleship, at 30 kilometers. Meanwhile, I take a BC and just head straight into an enemy formation at around 36 knots, barely take a scratch, and get better results overall. It's getting a bit silly to be honest.

The overall balancing is getting there. I would say all ship classes are not far from the desired sweet spot. Though right now, I really think BBs are either way too weak against all forms of detonations, or detonations in general need to be softened down. I like having a challenge, but adding more and more ways to loose ships because "RNGsus" is frustrating; no matter if I play good or stupid, the sheer frequency and randomness of these things makes for a very mixed experience.

I have the same experience and made the same conclusion - I always favoured BC over BB, but the flash fire machanics made it no brainer. BBs are supposed to soak up damage, while BCs should avoid it (by speed). And no matter how sturdy and resilient you BB is, if hit to certain areas, there is always a dice roll (aka flash fire) which can send your ship to the bottom.

And I can speculate, that this is exactly the reason, why the flash fire was implemented - it is an arbitrary RNG element to counter the edge which a human player has over the AI.

[Hangar18]

On 6/24/2020 at 2:27 AM, Tycondero said:

Flashfires are not as common as they used to be. That said, I do encounter them from time to time. 

However, if you look at historical events, the few capital ship engagements that occured, there are also a couple of cases were flashfires quickly killed off an entire BB/BC. Low armor protection and heavy gun size amplifies flashfires and this is simulated in the game too.

Thus far I haven't seen very unreasonable results in the current game considering flashfire chances. I have fought plenty of BB and BC engagements which lasted well until the ship made too much water or depleted its HP pool, which took dozens of minutes of fighting in game time.

Only DDs seems to have become a bit too resilient. I haven't noticed BCs outperforming BBs by any significant margin. 

I'm not saying that you are not right, just that I didn't encounter as much RNG issues even though I did play extensively in Alpha 7.

Hood was arguably the best protected ship in the RN at the time of its destruction. . That's not saying much because it had nothing but KGV and QE to compete with, but still. As far as I'm aware the leading theory is still a flash fire from the 4" guns traveling to the aft magazine causing the initial explosion. The flash fire continued along the fuel lines towards the bow causing  the famous "last shot". That was either the exit of of the fuel fire, or the burning of ammunition.

Technically i guess a flash fire could be stopped by bulkheads, and we do see small caliber flashes here and there that don't cause losses. 

DDs are resistant because they get speed immortality.

 

On 7/1/2020 at 4:25 AM, tvaishar said:

I have the same experience and made the same conclusion - I always favoured BC over BB, but the flash fire machanics made it no brainer. BBs are supposed to soak up damage, while BCs should avoid it (by speed). And no matter how sturdy and resilient you BB is, if hit to certain areas, there is always a dice roll (aka flash fire) which can send your ship to the bottom.

And I can speculate, that this is exactly the reason, why the flash fire was implemented - it is an arbitrary RNG element to counter the edge which a human player has over the AI.

As you can see above it's not always about protection, It's not arbitrary either, there are things you can do to reduce the risk. I don't see why it's anything to help the AI or player, either can be detonated, i've had a few. But you can mitigate them, you use barbettes, avoid flammable munitions, having too much ammunition, or heavier shells.

[Hangar18]

On 6/27/2020 at 8:44 AM, brucesim2003 said:

I've not once had a flash fire on MY ships. Might be something to do with the way I design them, idk.

The AI on the other hand, gets them most every battle. Though I've never seen a flash fire sink a ship outright. Tbh, I don't think they do enough damage.

Can you tell us the citadel/barbette/shell type/shell count/propellent type you use?

Flashes aren't always from large magazines, they can be from any magazine, so a flash from a 4" gun might be mitigated by bulkheads. Watch where the shells land, and you can tell the difference.

[brucesim2003]

59 minutes ago, Hangar18 said:

Can you tell us the citadel/barbette/shell type/shell count/propellent type you use?

Flashes aren't always from large magazines, they can be from any magazine, so a flash from a 4" gun might be mitigated by bulkheads. Watch where the shells land, and you can tell the difference.

Normally I use the best citadel available. Barbettes are the same, though if I'm scratching for weight I might drop it a step, but that's exceedingly rare. Shell type is heavy, count normal. Propellant is Ballistite/white/tnt. NEVER use lyddite or cordite. Bulkheads are a MINIMUM standard. Under no circumstances does that drop.

That applies for battleships and battlecruisers of any era. Of course, tech may limit certain things early on.

Cruisers have lower citadels and barbettes, but even then, the more the better.

I tend not to use the biggest guns, nor the most. I find under most circumstances, an 8 gun broadside does fine. And in most battleships, the main gun has a tech drop, usually 2-3 inches from the largest gun. I use the gun right before that drop. Sometimes even smaller. 16" is a rare beast in my navy. Unless you are facing a behemoth 8x 14" will get the job done.

Edited July 10, 2020 by brucesim2003

[Hangar18]

6 hours ago, brucesim2003 said:

Normally I use the best citadel available. Barbettes are the same, though if I'm scratching for weight I might drop it a step, but that's exceedingly rare. Shell type is heavy, count normal. Propellant is Ballistite/white/tnt. NEVER use lyddite or cordite. Bulkheads are a MINIMUM standard. Under no circumstances does that drop.

That applies for battleships and battlecruisers of any era. Of course, tech may limit certain things early on.

Cruisers have lower citadels and barbettes, but even then, the more the better.

I tend not to use the biggest guns, nor the most. I find under most circumstances, an 8 gun broadside does fine. And in most battleships, the main gun has a tech drop, usually 2-3 inches from the largest gun. I use the gun right before that drop. Sometimes even smaller. 16" is a rare beast in my navy. Unless you are facing a behemoth 8x 14" will get the job done.

I wouldn't say there is a best citadel, they for the most part have their niches. very odd to be getting flashed with cit 5 however.

Bulkheads right now are super overpowered, I would suggest bumping that. Steeltrap doesn't doesn't even play with ships below "many" bulkheads. Personally, unless I'm struggling to cut weight to the point where the concept of the ship doesn't work if i cut something else out, im just playing straight max bulkheads. Tie that in with reinforced bulkheads and you'll have an instant zombie ship, and it's pretty much regardless of class.

[brucesim2003]

40 minutes ago, Hangar18 said:

I wouldn't say there is a best citadel, they for the most part have their niches. very odd to be getting flashed with cit 5 however.

Bulkheads right now are super overpowered, I would suggest bumping that. Steeltrap doesn't doesn't even play with ships below "many" bulkheads. Personally, unless I'm struggling to cut weight to the point where the concept of the ship doesn't work if i cut something else out, im just playing straight max bulkheads. Tie that in with reinforced bulkheads and you'll have an instant zombie ship, and it's pretty much regardless of class.

Hehe. I think I worded the bulkheads aspect poorly. What I meant was that they are set at 'standard' at a minimum. Never less than that.

[Hangar18]

3 hours ago, brucesim2003 said:

Hehe. I think I worded the bulkheads aspect poorly. What I meant was that they are set at 'standard' at a minimum. Never less than that.

I understand ( i had to reread it a few times) , i'm saying they're super OP when you beef them up, and it reduces the odds of a mag detonation as well. Just in general though it makes ships annoyingly hard to kill off. Reinforcing them in combination, is also pretty OP, they also resist flash fires, and fires.

btw, theres no need for 406s, they're kinda worse than the 380s. So don't feel pressured to go to those.