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GrubbyZebra

For the love of God fix stern camping

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Posted (edited)

People who bow camp your stern shooting grape for 40 mins in even battles trying to board if you attempt to tack or go in reverse are absolute vermin. People who take snows to troll people are annoying but usually they're shitters so they can be dealt with. The combination of scumbags who only try to board and cheesey shit like bow-in stern camping is absolute cancer. There is no excuse for getting broadside stern camped, and at the end of the day its all part of the game.

Edited by Potemkin
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4 hours ago, van Veen said:

It's so much fun sitting in Holland at a lock entrance in the sun with a coffee on the table watching some holiday skippers trying to stop in front of the lock. When realizing they start drifting, they try everything at once, bow thruster, rudder, reversing and finally full ahead again while the stone wall is getting closer and closer. Most motor boat people just don't know what wind does to your boat. And then there are computer gamers who never even went on a boat at all. 

Seriously, guys, the sailing in battle instance is close to perfect. There are only some minor things that could be a little better. But these are negligible for the sake of gameplay imho. 

  • Close hauled speeds are too high
  • Leeway should be greatly reduced with increasing speed
  • Accelleration/deccelleration is too high
  • Yard turn speeds are too high
  • "Depower" removing all jibs instantly is absolute nonsense
  • Fore and aft sails (spanker and jibs) position for downwind sailing is too close to the center line
  • No square rigged ship could tack through the wind without reversing, but in NA fast square riggers can do this

And of course, wind, waves and the weather in general are just too constant to be called realistic. 

All these flaws were implemented knowingly, for better gameplay (weather and all speed related things) or ease of coding (depower, sail position). 

 

@van stiermarken

  1. Closed hauled speeds are there for the reason - not sure if it is needed for the Game. I want it to be more realistic, but i know many will not want it. I vividly remember the slow turning and slower sailing experiment (we were bombarded by negativity). 
  2. Leeway is already reduced with increasing speed (up to almost 3x difference). Same with yard power.. Yard power is also reduced with speed (because of keel resistance due to speed)
  3. Acceleration deceleration too high AGREE
  4. Yard turn speed are too high - not sure.. What is your reference point with game speeds faster? For example we can provide the reference point for reloads. What is your reference point for yards? Lets say 90 men per mast for rigging work on a first rate - how fast they can turn the yards? We can even try to count the pulls for braces, how much distance (degrees) per pull (maybe captstain turns?) if we find a modern reference point for yard turning using braces we can fix it. it will require more planning (and allow to add more uniqueness for ships)
  5. Depower is removing jibs. Well. You can just untie the ropes (make it go free) and depower the jib instantly. For spanker its slower of course (agree but only for spanker). But you can depower jibs and staysails almost instantly with the right rig
  6. Fore aft sails - its a visual and animation issue, adding new positions is very expensive fps wise and increase amount of animations - so its purely visual. 
  7. Tack through the wind - Actually DISAGREE - in several 1700-1800 books on seamanship there are references that point that the skilled captain could tack without sternway. and sometimes even without negative speed. (especially heavy ship who were still decelerating on energy itself). But it only was possible with skilled crew who could remove wind from sails to avoid negative force. Whats lacking is the failed tack, we have it in game - but to make it work it we have to remove 1. (closed haul speed too high) then negative force of incorrectly placed yards will push you back . 
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5 hours ago, admin said:

Who did put this into your head. Read your willis


Ships could sail forwards backwards and sideways and were really nimble.
https://www.cnrs-scrn.org/northern_mariner/vol14/tnm_14_3_57-68.pdf
Or look at any old or modern seamanship book showing how ships sail forward backward and sideways - for example in estuaries. 
Khreayt.jpg
 


The only difference is our ships can sail slightly closer to wind. Our sailing has found perfect balance between interesting realism without slipping into boring annoying tediousness. If they dont like it - they can go play... blackwake or motorboat ass creed. We don`t care whatever armchair critics think because based on the comments they probably have no idea. 

You are good and useful in other areas Stiermarken. Your comments put shadow and devalue your other work 

I remember this picture being presented to show what was possible, too bad that no ship in this game would be able to duplicate the maneuvers. 

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1 hour ago, Raekur said:

I remember this picture being presented to show what was possible, too bad that no ship in this game would be able to duplicate the maneuvers. 

Not sure if you are serious or not.
The fact that YOU Cannot do them just means you have not practiced enough. We see all those maneuvers on streams over and over again (especially in frigates).
You can replicate almost all the maneuvers on the image with the exceptions of ones requiring anchor. You can sail sideways backwards and forwards and control the angles to an extent. You should move to pvp server you will be forced to learn them ;). Unfortunately AI only teaches players to tack well but not move sideways and backwards . But i am sure a couple of guys on the War server will be willing to give you a couple of lessons and pointers for a hefty charge.

 

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5 hours ago, admin said:

We know how to fix sterncamping.. there are 3 solutions. 2 of them require 1-2 months of coding.
Accel/Decel is easy - will force more planning for the camper, increasing the skill level required to properly sit on the stern.


 

The sailing itself is great for a sailing game. But sometimes it is strange, that small ships cannot be efficiently fought, when very close (lowest gunports above the hull of the smaller ship).

There are means to counter it, but a kind of musket fire at close quarters would be a nice and realistic mechanic.

But you were talking about 3 solutions. Can you tell us which solutions these are?

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, admin said:

 

Acceleration deceleration too high AGREE

Changing this would certainly help reducing the ''motorboat comparison'' syndrome. Especialy with the new ''tactic'' of accelerating into firing position, just to instantly stop or reverse out of  your opponent's firing arc to deny them a riposte, just to rince and repeat when your guns are reloaded.

Right now, you have the feeling some ships are switching from foward to reverse gear and back to foward gear as fast as an electric car with no clutch ^^.

Edited by Serk

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13 hours ago, van stiermarken said:

 here in game you can sail with your ship forward, backward and sideways in a very unrealistic way.

 

 

1v1 me in minecraft

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, admin said:

Not sure if you are serious or not.
The fact that YOU Cannot do them just means you have not practiced enough. We see all those maneuvers on streams over and over again (especially in frigates).
You can replicate almost all the maneuvers on the image with the exceptions of ones requiring anchor. You can sail sideways backwards and forwards and control the angles to an extent. You should move to pvp server you will be forced to learn them ;). Unfortunately AI only teaches players to tack well but not move sideways and backwards . But i am sure a couple of guys on the War server will be willing to give you a couple of lessons and pointers for a hefty charge.

 

I have spent several years on the pvp server and only recently moved to the pve server due to the toxic nature of the players on the pvp server.

The maneuvers that require the anchor were the ones I was referring to, most all the others I agree are to a degree possible and only take practice, but good luck getting the time to do so without getting ganked. Learning under fire while it seems fun in the movies and such, does not play out well when it is personal. This is the main reason I suggested several times that new players to the game should start on the pve server then "graduate" to the pvp server once they feel they are skilled enough to do so.

 

On another note: any chances on getting a response to my question posed in this thread regarding the group issue on the pve server?

Edited by Raekur
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6 hours ago, Sauron said:

Not a bad idea really. like "secondary fire" in WoWS.

imo if you compare it to wows the secondairy armament in naval action would be swivel guns, while anti air would be the marines with muskets i think :)

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7 hours ago, Sauron said:

Not a bad idea really. like "secondary fire" in WoWS.

They have it in UA:AoS and @admin has said in the past they have it coded just didn't like that there is no visual in game for it.

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20 hours ago, Isaac J Smith said:

Please point on the doll where the bad snow touched you.

In all seriousness, sometimes realism does not make for good gameplay. If someone was skilled enough to sterncamp you, and you weren't capable enough to counter it, IMO you deserve to be sunk. I'm sorry, but poor play should not be rewarded just because you are in a big ship. This change would only make the winner of the battle almost always the one in the bigger ship.

who said anything about a snow? I didn't. 

The game used to be coded so that you couldn't reduce center structure below 50% by stern camping. Not sure why this was ever changed. 

Sterncamping also doesn't require skill. All it required is a broadside of chain through someone's sails, and that you have a ship with a higher turning rate. 

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12 hours ago, Cathal Brugha said:

Getting stern raked was one of the most feared by fighting captains, there are times when I think it is not dangerous enough in the game. The snow, however, is way over armed for such a small yet high profile ship.

Getting stern raked was feared because it killed a lot of crew, not because it sunk the ship.

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1 hour ago, GrubbyZebra said:

Getting stern raked was feared because it killed a lot of crew, not because it sunk the ship.

True, but ships sink too easily in here also.

 

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5 minutes ago, Cathal Brugha said:

True, but ships sink too easily in here also.

 

That is also a fair statement. But, there is no incentive for a player not to sink a ship.

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Just now, GrubbyZebra said:

But, there is no incentive for a player not to sink a ship.

Which is also wrong, you should get more credit for capturing.

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27 minutes ago, Cathal Brugha said:

Which is also wrong, you should get more credit for capturing.

Capturing AND sail back to port, easy to cap, but harder to sail the ship capped to port to *put what ye want, sell it, keep it, give it, etc*

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11 hours ago, Potemkin said:

People who bow camp your stern shooting grape for 40 mins in even battles trying to board if you attempt to tack or go in reverse are absolute vermin. People who take snows to troll people are annoying but usually they're shitters so they can be dealt with. The combination of scumbags who only try to board and cheesey shit like bow-in stern camping is absolute cancer. There is no excuse for getting broadside stern camped, and at the end of the day its all part of the game.

i do that bow in your stern until you give up on life thing

 

sorry :\ 

 

i dont do it often, if that counts 4 anything

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15 hours ago, admin said:

 

  1. Same with yard power.. Yard power is also reduced with speed (because of keel resistance due to speed)

What exactly is meant by yard power, what does it effect in game? Never fully understood this, never found anything about it.

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10 minutes ago, Suppenkelle said:

What exactly is meant by yard power, what does it effect in game? Never fully understood this, never found anything about it.

This was answered on another thread (I think in Q&A) by one of the other devs.

Yard power is the force generated by the sails hung on the yards for turning. (i.e. when turning using manual sails, a given ship will turn faster if it has a buff to yard power than the same ship turns without the buff).

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Posted (edited)

Before changing and reverting something about the sail model, it should be considered that still missing from the combat model is small arms deck fire, swivels, grenades etc.. things that made the ship act as a fighting platform, not just floating artillary 

Edited by Slim McSauce
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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, GrubbyZebra said:

This was answered on another thread (I think in Q&A) by one of the other devs.

Yard power is the force generated by the sails hung on the yards for turning. (i.e. when turning using manual sails, a given ship will turn faster if it has a buff to yard power than the same ship turns without the buff).

thx, found it. I was even active in that thread :) But I was ill when it got answered, so, I missed the answer.

Edited by Suppenkelle
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22 hours ago, admin said:

You can replicate almost all the maneuvers on the image with the exceptions of ones requiring anchor. You can sail sideways backwards and forwards and control the angles to an extent.

 

I agree =D I have learn these from PvE server and i have alot of fun. 

On the other hand, one way i learn to break sterncamp is to suddenly reverse into them and be alittle erratic sailing backwards as most of the time they are sterncamping because they cannot take you from the side. Vary the speed by going very fast then suddenly very slow and etc. 

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On 3/30/2020 at 11:20 AM, admin said:

@van stiermarken

  1. Closed hauled speeds are there for the reason - not sure if it is needed for the Game. I want it to be more realistic, but i know many will not want it. I vividly remember the slow turning and slower sailing experiment (we were bombarded by negativity). 
  2. Leeway is already reduced with increasing speed (up to almost 3x difference). Same with yard power.. Yard power is also reduced with speed (because of keel resistance due to speed)
  3. Acceleration deceleration too high AGREE
  4. Yard turn speed are too high - not sure.. What is your reference point with game speeds faster? For example we can provide the reference point for reloads. What is your reference point for yards? Lets say 90 men per mast for rigging work on a first rate - how fast they can turn the yards? We can even try to count the pulls for braces, how much distance (degrees) per pull (maybe captstain turns?) if we find a modern reference point for yard turning using braces we can fix it. it will require more planning (and allow to add more uniqueness for ships)
  5. Depower is removing jibs. Well. You can just untie the ropes (make it go free) and depower the jib instantly. For spanker its slower of course (agree but only for spanker). But you can depower jibs and staysails almost instantly with the right rig
  6. Fore aft sails - its a visual and animation issue, adding new positions is very expensive fps wise and increase amount of animations - so its purely visual. 
  7. Tack through the wind - Actually DISAGREE - in several 1700-1800 books on seamanship there are references that point that the skilled captain could tack without sternway. and sometimes even without negative speed. (especially heavy ship who were still decelerating on energy itself). But it only was possible with skilled crew who could remove wind from sails to avoid negative force. Whats lacking is the failed tack, we have it in game - but to make it work it we have to remove 1. (closed haul speed too high) then negative force of incorrectly placed yards will push you back . 

@van Veen

Admin beat me to the issue with the jibs. You simply release the jib sheet. The command might be something like "ease the sheet or let fly jib sheets" Stays'l a bit harder but the same thing basically. It is an animation issue. 

Close hauled speeds are not necessarily off, some frigates could make 10 knts close hauled (13 knts sailing large or off the wind). 

The biggest issue related to that is the angle to the wind, meaning that no square rigged ship could sail closer than 65-70 degrees to the wind while a fore and aft ship can sail about 45 degrees. In game we have ships making headway at 20 degrees and keeping good speed at 35 degrees. One reason that ships seem too maneuverable and makes it easy to stern camp is this point. But the angles are relaxed for game play so other factors need to be adjusted to compensate. I can hear the cursing if players ships slowed to a stop and started drifting backwards at 40-50 degrees off the wind. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 3/31/2020 at 7:33 PM, DeRuyter said:

@van Veen But the angles are relaxed for game play so other factors need to be adjusted to compensate. I can hear the cursing if players ships slowed to a stop and started drifting backwards at 40-50 degrees off the wind

IMO i would love to try this ingame if it was for one weekend to test it, @admin would this be possible if u open testbed? and apply a survey afterwards of the experience players had

Edited by erelkivtuadrater
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