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DDZ_Vasduten

Backdoor Meta Game Gutting Nations

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Posted (edited)

How is coercing clans inside a nation not akin to using alt accounts to stage and fight port battles? How is using a clan within another nation to undermine the entire nation's playerbase fair or not considered cause for tribunals?

For instance: A nation, (We'll call it Nation A,) recently lost a port that it's best PvP clan built ships and operated out of.  
Nation B won the port battle. Yes, there was fog. Who cares?

 The next day, a different clasn in Nation A tried for and got hostilities against Nation B's new port. That clan also knew where Nation B's fleet was during screening. The same clan "fought" the port battle to get the port back, but ZERO Nation B players showed up for it.

That clan then announces they have been given the port by Nation B, but under the condition that the top PvP clan in Nation A isn't allowed to be on the friends list and get ship upgrades there.
 

The nation blows up, because... one of it's two shipbuilding ports, (eligible for bonuses,) is now closed off because a clan was "too good". The other is controlled by another clan, and they have been told not to add the same clan to their friends list. They are also known to be vassals of Nation B.

 

I contend that this is unfair to everyone else in Nation A, and that Nation B acted outside the game mechanics to gain an unfair advantage. Sure, this is dependent on the puppet-clan being complicit, but they're aiding a meta game exploit and I think these are grounds for a tribunal.

This game is supposed to be naval war: action at sea, port ownership and resource management and player cooperation. I don't think allowing clans within a nation to subvert their own nation's interests WILLINGLY is fair play or something that wouldn't be grounds for that clan's dismissal from the nation. I mean... if a faction was aiding and abetting the enemy in real life and discovered doing so, they'd be put before a tribunal and hanged until dead. As of this writing, there is no way for Nation A to deal with a traitorous clan within their ranks. I'm new to this game... is this what tribunals are for?

 

I allow that player behavior and accords/alliances exist, but this goes way over that line -especially when there is absolutely NO recourse aside from a nationwide sanction or boycott of that clan, (which would only be minimally effective anyway,).


Seriously. I think the whole thing stinks. What's the point of working hard to build resources, shipbuilding, invest in a port and git gud at PvP if another nation you are fighting can just shut you down without actually playing the game the way it was designed? What happens to the business of nation-building, port capture and a plan of conquest after this? It sets an awful precedent and needs to be looked at seriously.

Why waste time and energy playing this game when one could just go join the big nation benefit from the meta game?


Edited to add: This doesn't only affect Nation A I'm referring to; this is something that has happened and will continue other nations. Well, except Nation B for now. It's unacceptable behavior for anyone.

Edited by DDZ_Vasduten
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I wish we could just get rid of the port bonus system.  Far more trouble than it's worth.  It seems we have one of these posts every week.

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3 minutes ago, Mouth of Sauron said:

I wish we could just get rid of the port bonus system.  Far more trouble than it's worth.  It seems we have one of these posts every week.

I'm new, but that makes sense... if capital ports have none, why give meta game players the ability to cripple effective clans without actually fighting them? It's dirty pool.

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2 hours ago, Mouth of Sauron said:

I wish we could just get rid of the port bonus system.  Far more trouble than it's worth.  It seems we have one of these posts every week.

Or... port bonuses for all; not just friends list clans.

Sigh. Something, anything.

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Posted (edited)

As a member of the clan in Nation A that "retook" the port, I will say this:

1) Diplomacy parallel to the game should be allowed and encouraged, and really should be baked into the game coding. This includes striking agreements for ports.

2) The new owner negotiated to ensure the original owner had access to another crafting port for bonuses. 

3) The original owner has removed us from their friends list many times over stupid stuff, so they aren't blameless.

4) They lost the port, we have reinvested in the port to regain some of the bonuses that were lost, so no prior claim to it exists.

5) Allowing nations to control over half the map is bad for balance of game-play, and naturally will allow such nations to dictate terms to smaller nations that must be adhered to in order to avoid complete removal from competition (i.e. Poland). 

6) No mechanic should allow for a clan to be completely shut out of the crafting system. If the developers want to allow for clans to be excluded from port bonus access, then there necessarily must be a way for clans to accomplish hostile takeovers of ports within their own nation.

7) Clans should not be put in a position where they feel they must bow to a larger nation in order to maintain access to core gameplay components (see point 2).

8 ) A nation should not be allowed to be so large as to be able to dictate game mechanics (see point 2 and the situation with Remedios, where it was an acceptable tactic by one nation until another nation used a similar tactic against them, then they complained and PB cool down timers were removed entirely).

TL;DR - Retaking the port in the manner which was used is acceptable The devs need to introduce mechanics to avoid nations becoming so large that they essentially control the game.

Edited by GrubbyZebra
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So you're saying that you both agree and disagree with the practice, but it's OK when you do it.

Got it.

I disagree, respectfully.

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Just now, Admiral Isy said:

Actually.. I'd like to see a mechanic that disallows inactive clans from holding ports.

If you're going to hold a 50pt port you should have a certain activity level in your clan.

Another thing: I'd like to see a wardec mechanic. Basically if a national clan goes rogue and sells out to the enemy politically... Other clans have a recourse against them. Like Wardecs in EVE Online.

Agreed. There are two I can think of off the top of my head that are "owned" by inactive clans. 

Nothing gets done there and one of them is another Nation B vassal port. Just wrong.

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We the players keep bringing up that a solution to alt clans and bad/rogue clans and yet there is no system and it keeps getting ignored.  We need a system to dea with these clans and it’s not getting another nation to flip your port. 
 

we also need some type of faction/alliance system in game to allow weaker nations to group up and fight stronger nations.  Hell I would even be happy with the old alliance system for now.  Just make the impossible nations not allowed to have alliances like the pirates.   Those three nations should never be the top three nations or for long.  They aren’t very impossible when they are steam rolling true nations in game.  

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Posted (edited)

i see it as a big problem that you can upgrade in all kind of branches, imo a port should only be able to go through 1 branch with various upgrades at different stages, so you would normally have a port only crafting tanky ships, and another port crafting fast ships, and not as now where you can do both, craft insanely heavy ships AND redicilously fast ships

Edited by erelkivtuadrater

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Port bonuses should be for all members of the nation- why does there need to be a friends list?  The advantage of owning the port is you get to pick the bonuses and receive the tax revenue.  There should also be a maintenance fee and you lose the port if you go inactive and can’t afford it- if the nation wanted your clan to lose control of the port they could economically boycott it. You would just need a mechanic on how another clan would inherit the port.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

We the players keep bringing up that a solution to alt clans and bad/rogue clans and yet there is no system and it keeps getting ignored.  We need a system to dea with these clans and it’s not getting another nation to flip your port. 
 

we also need some type of faction/alliance system in game to allow weaker nations to group up and fight stronger nations.  Hell I would even be happy with the old alliance system for now.  Just make the impossible nations not allowed to have alliances like the pirates.   Those three nations should never be the top three nations or for long.  They aren’t very impossible when they are steam rolling true nations in game.  

Dude.. the Pirate Nation is a nation.

You're off base if you fail to acknowledge that fact.

Otherwise, I agree that some of your points are valid and good. Please... don't come in here saying that a nation coded into the game isn't a nation.

Edited by DDZ_Vasduten
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3 hours ago, Sparkydog said:

There should also be a maintenance fee and you lose the port if you go inactive and can’t afford it

There is a fee already. The problem is balancing the fee between clans who play more casually and clans with alt fleets of 20 indiamans trading 24/7. I don't think holding ports should be reserved for only the latter type of clan. 

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25 minutes ago, --Privateer-- said:

There is a fee already. The problem is balancing the fee between clans who play more casually and clans with alt fleets of 20 indiamans trading 24/7. I don't think holding ports should be reserved for only the latter type of clan. 

It's just sad that there are so few open ports for Nation A and two of those are held by absent or near-absent clans. 
For instance, we're very active in my clan, but there are no capital ports available as of yet for us to build into. 

We like operating out of ONE of those... but it's owned by someone else who isn't very active. What's the amiable solution to this conundrum?

The other port I referred to is owned by a clan with ONE active member and he's not even an officer there. Just weird I think.
I'd like to have a discussion with you and see if there is something that can be done about building up a port for our clan. Please PM me ingame and we can have a chat.

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2 minutes ago, Admiral Isy said:

Exactly.. I think the activity index would be very complicated and prone to being "gamed."

I'm of the opinion that port bonuses should go. Level the playing field for all.

And this drama goes away. Community becomes healthier.

This is the obvious and best choice.

Port bonuses are just used to hold people ransom as is. That's not really fair or a level playing field.

Also: Make Salt Great Again!!!

hahaha

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20 hours ago, DDZ_Vasduten said:

Agreed. There are two I can think of off the top of my head that are "owned" by inactive clans. 

Nothing gets done there and one of them is another Nation B vassal port. Just wrong.

I am looking at all of the ports in our nation, and none are owned by inactive clans. You need to stop making assumptions.

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, DDZ_Vasduten said:

So you're saying that you both agree and disagree with the practice, but it's OK when you do it.

Got it.

I disagree, respectfully.

If that was your take away from my post, then you didn't understand what I wrote, at all.

Also, many of the assumptions you are making are false, as you are only hearing one side of the story.

Edited by GrubbyZebra

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5 hours ago, DDZ_Vasduten said:

Dude.. the Pirate Nation is a nation.

You're off base if you fail to acknowledge that fact.

Otherwise, I agree that some of your points are valid and good. Please... don't come in here saying that a nation coded into the game isn't a nation.

You must be fairly new to this game?  Even when we had alliance system pirates couldn't have an allaince cause well every one is suppose to hate pirates.   

The reason many of us refuse to go back to pirates is cause it's been dumb up so much that it's not pirates at all.   Give us back Free for all fights and being able to join any side (and be sunk by any nation).  Let us raid ports not own them.   Let us work out of the shallows and back water ports.   Make it so we can't craft larger than 4th rates, every thing else we have to capture.   These are things a many of us have been demanding for a long time.  Cause we don't want to be just another nation or some silly Disney Pirate like some folks think they are.  You want to be a National, than go play a freaking national man.

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1 hour ago, GrubbyZebra said:

If that was your take away from my post, then you didn't understand what I wrote, at all.

Also, many of the assumptions you are making are false, as you are only hearing one side of the story.

Dude... just stop. 

These are all things that one of your officers came into our channel and told us. 
I won't name names but it rhymes with "mannon block".

You guys brokered a deal with an enemy nation to use the friends list to exclude our best PvP clan in Nation A and it reveals what a bad and exploitable system it truly is. 

We all see you. 
Shame.

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1 hour ago, GrubbyZebra said:

I am looking at all of the ports in our nation, and none are owned by inactive clans. You need to stop making assumptions.

You're wrong there. We play with the only JACKS guy left... and he's not an officer.

The other port is "run" by one guy and his alt. 

That's it. These are not assumptions.
 

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1 hour ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

You must be fairly new to this game?  Even when we had alliance system pirates couldn't have an allaince cause well every one is suppose to hate pirates.   

The reason many of us refuse to go back to pirates is cause it's been dumb up so much that it's not pirates at all.   Give us back Free for all fights and being able to join any side (and be sunk by any nation).  Let us raid ports not own them.   Let us work out of the shallows and back water ports.   Make it so we can't craft larger than 4th rates, every thing else we have to capture.   These are things a many of us have been demanding for a long time.  Cause we don't want to be just another nation or some silly Disney Pirate like some folks think they are.  You want to be a National, than go play a freaking national man.

I stated that I was new. 

Pirates are a nation.

why are you so confrontational when you came in this thread and started spouting off nonsense?

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13 minutes ago, DDZ_Vasduten said:

Dude... just stop. 

These are all things that one of your officers came into our channel and told us. 
I won't name names but it rhymes with "mannon block".

You guys brokered a deal with an enemy nation to use the friends list to exclude our best PvP clan in Nation A and it reveals what a bad and exploitable system it truly is. 

We all see you. 
Shame.

The choice was, regain a major crafting and trading port for the nation at the exclusion of 1 clan, or not regain it at all (after all, the original owner could not hold it, and would not be able to recapture it, either) . We took the more favourable option. We also convinced the clan that owns the other crafting port to add the excluded clan to their friends list, against Nation B and there own objections, so the excluded clan could still craft with port bonuses. 

So yeah, we made the best of an unfavourable situation.

Oh, and that clan is far from being the best PvP clan in the nation. They are the most active PvP clan in terms of total kills, but they have far from the highest K/D ratio (there are 3 clans with higher K/D rations). They also continually run their mouth on nation and global, inciting attacks by other nations on their ports, and have been known to kick clans off their friends lists for little to no reason. So yeah, don't buy in to everything they are selling. The problem here isn't what our clan did, it is that "Nation B" has been allowed by the game mechanics to grow to a point where they can exert this level of influence.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, DDZ_Vasduten said:

You're wrong there. We play with the only JACKS guy left... and he's not an officer.

The other port is "run" by one guy and his alt. 

That's it. These are not assumptions.
 

Blackcloud, Topher, and Hefestus are all active, so unless they have changed clans since last weekend, it is still an active clan.

I'm not sure what "other port" you are referring to, as every other port in the nation is also owned by clans with active players. These are not assumptions. (they also weren't the assumptions I was referring to in the first place)

Edited by GrubbyZebra

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