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Fake PB to create RvR-cooldown


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2 days ago Pirate clan MERCY flipped the spanish port of Remedios. Pirates and Spanish work together and operate as allies in this area. So the attack was out of character. 

Uck5VVg.jpg

We quickly learned that the attack was not real, and only a ploy. A way to put the port on cooldown for several days and prevent another nation, in this case Russia, from launching a real attack on the port and possibly take it.

As anticipated, the PB arrived and passed, and this happened:
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As far as we know the pirates didn't even go to the PB, or they may have been there, but making no attempt to win it. 

Pirates have been open about the fact that  this was simply an exploit to protect the Spanish port from attack:

 

This is an abuse of the hostility and cooldown system. If it is allowed to pass unpunished it would allow nations to turn their ports permanently invulnerable from capture by another nation and completely halting the RvR-system.

This is different from trading ports, as ports that have been traded still allows the taking of hostility missions for surrounding ports. While ports on cooldown are still fully usable for the nation that holds them and blocks off that entire frontline from attack.

We expect that the players deemed to be involved are warned, and that the port of Remedios is turned neutral as a reaction (we will let the Spanish recapture the port afterwards as we have no more interest in holding this port than we did the last time).

EDIT:

In case Discord messages don't quite cut it, here's an admission from the forum, in this topic, that the port was flipped simply and entirely to put the port on cooldown.

On 3/13/2020 at 1:07 AM, GrubbyZebra said:

We weren't "used" by Spain. We made a strategic decision to assist Spain in keeping Russia from taking Remedios in order to protect our Northwestern border from Russian incursions (like what happened last time Russia took Remedios), seeing as how we have a major crafting and trade hub not far from that port.

 

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*smart arse mode on*

Just as much of an abuse of game Mechanics as you grinding the hostility for a swedish alt clan

*smart arse mode off*

No but for real. There are some rule questions that have to be answered by devs here.

Edited by Liq
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3 hours ago, Anolytic said:
2 hours ago, Liq said:

Just as much of an abuse of game Mechanics as you grinding the hostility for a swedish alt clan

We expect that the players deemed to be involved are warned, and that the port of Remedios is turned neutral as a reaction (we will let the Spanish recapture the port afterwards as we have no more interest in holding this port than we did the last time).

Or stacking Hostilities, We also expect that the players deemed to be involved are warned, and that the Russians ports are turned neutral as a reaction. 

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It's funny, the REDS give cities to the Amerikans and rendered all kinds of assistance to get the pirates out of Joba, then they just handed the cities to the Amerikans. It’s very honest, why is Spain not allowed? If you are not interested in remidios then why this topic? I find it strange that the REDS clan cannot fill a city faster than pirates. I think the Reds clan should surrender their cities in the first place, and then create such topics.

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3 hours ago, Liq said:

*smart arse mode on*

Just as much of an abuse of game Mechanics as you grinding the hostility for a swedish alt clan

 

The difference is that one is clearly forbidden, the other is not (or not yet)

 

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1 minute ago, Hr FrosT said:

The difference is that one is clearly forbidden, the other is not (or not yet)

 

Issue is how do you tell appart fake port battles fom "real" pb's? do you consider  a full PBs but in cheap ships, to practise for both sides, fake?

(being serious, since alliances were removed this is an issue now)

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35 minutes ago, akerman23 said:

It's funny, the REDS give cities to the Amerikans and rendered all kinds of assistance to get the pirates out of Joba, then they just handed the cities to the Amerikans. It’s very honest, why is Spain not allowed? If you are not interested in remidios then why this topic? I find it strange that the REDS clan cannot fill a city faster than pirates. I think the Reds clan should surrender their cities in the first place, and then create such topics.

man wtf are so salty over that.  may i suggest you focus on baracoa now

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5 minutes ago, Liq said:

Issue is how do you tell appart fake port battles fom "real" pb's? do you consider  a full PBs but in cheap ships, to practise for both sides, fake?

(being serious, since alliances were removed this is an issue now)

it its a PB to just lock the cooldown, it should not be allowed. if its a practice pb or a flip/no show/whatever than that should be fine. its part of the game.  why make something more complicated than it has to be

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1. you could almost imagine someone had suggested some kind of alliance mechanic by now.

2. Admin on a similar evidence case a few months time ago on a tribunal vs some russians said that they didnt have control over 3rd party chats so people could pretend to be people they were not to get people banned from the game.

3. Dont hate the player, hate the game.

Edited by erelkivtuadrater
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There used to be a rule in the tribunal that only the accused, accusers or people with evidence was allowed to post, and no off topic. I guess that's out the window.

4 hours ago, Liq said:

Just as much of an abuse of game Mechanics as you grinding the hostility for a swedish alt clan

If the port would have been A) handed back and fort between Sweden/Britain, or B ) The Swedish clan would not have shown up to the PB to complete the trade, then this comment would've been relevant. As it is, it's not and you're just spamming the tribunal with irrelevant accusations. For the case you refer to, the tribunal in question was closed and dismissed before I had the time to make a statement there. But REDS only showed up on the assurance that the flip was part of a legitimate port-trade, and neither A or B above would happen. We joined a hostility mission at the request of an ally, with the express purpose that the port would be both flipped and the attack was real. This is no different from the time that we joined British hostility missions for Mugeres and Conttoy to help finish this hostility while the British fleets were engaged by Swedes. Nor was the trading of the port any different from the trading of San Juan from Denmark to Sweden, or the 10+ ports in Bahamas and Florida that REDS has traded to the US, or all the ports that Sweden has traded to Spain.

4 hours ago, Montagnes said:

Interesting to see REDS posting and suggesting punishment to @admin after Truxillo and all the deliberately stacking of hostility missions (several times done by now).

The arrogance here is reaching new levels.

Sweden does port-trades. Spain does port-trades. How is it different only when REDS is involved? We didn't even get the port or give the port away. We were just there shooting AI. If you want to argue about the Truxillo incident, go to the tribunal about the Truxillo port-trade. Don't spam other tribunals with it. 

And Hostility stacking was deemed explicitly legal on several occasions, including when Sweden did it. Again, if you want to argue about it, do it in the appropriate topics.

4 hours ago, gimli_balinson said:

the question is why zerg nation wasn’t faster?

This is neither here nor there. It's like saying that alt-farming is fine, because none of the 1000 other players on the server beat you to sinking your alt. 

We were never even there or intending to be. That doesn't change the fact that the hostility was done with the intent solely to put the port on cooldown. Maybe Russia would have wanted to attack the port the next day. It's irrelevant to the intentional offense.

2 hours ago, Alonso Alvarado said:

You should be ashamed of what you do in the game with factions like the Spanish for example. You abuse them daily and on top of that you come to us with this topic. Is bullying permited in game? Yes, you do it with them from months ago.

First of all, this is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Secondly Russia did not attack Spain. Russia hasn't bullied Spain. Spain attacked Russia, and even then, REDS didn't retaliate and tried leaving Spain alone. Spain ramped up their griefing, and instead of retaliation we offered Spain almost all the ports that we conquered from Dutch in the Florida Keys. 

REDS has been absolutely as careful as possible not to do unnecessary destruction to our enemies.

When we were at war with Britain and they cried that we were getting too close to their crafting area, we backed off and went to fight them somewhere else instead - to allow them to keep fighting us, rather than destroying the nation. 

When REDS was attacked by Denmark. We refused to take the easy route to end the war by attacking San Juan and destroying the nation. Instead we attacked only useless ports, even while our enemy was trying to attack our own crafting areas.

When REDS was attacked by Dutch, and we were at the door to their crafting areas, we did not ask them to surrender, we backed off and stopped attacking. Only defending our gains from  repeated attacks yet without retaliating.

When REDS was attacked by Spain, we held back completely for months. And when, after weeks of griefing we took Remedios, we instantly gave it back, as soon as was possible.

Contrast this with how other clans operate. And how they treat their enemies, or even their friends.

2 hours ago, Lecner said:

Or stacking Hostilities, We also expect that the players deemed to be involved are warned, and that the Russians ports are turned neutral as a reaction.

You are in the wrong topic mate. And your accusation is pointless, all the time hostility stacking has been deemed legal every time, wether it was done by Russia or Sweden.

1 hour ago, akerman23 said:

It's funny, the REDS give cities to the Amerikans and rendered all kinds of assistance to get the pirates out of Joba, then they just handed the cities to the Amerikans. It’s very honest, why is Spain not allowed?

Apples and oranges. Spanish are allowed to trade Remedios to pirates if you want. You are even allowed to trade it to one of the Spanish alt-clans in Russia if you wish. You are not allowed to simply make the port invulnerable by fake attacks to put it constantly on cooldown.

1 hour ago, akerman23 said:

If you are not interested in remidios then why this topic?

Because we need devs to give an ultimate ruling on the legality of this "tactic". And because intentionally cheating should be addressed. Nobody is hurt directly by others alt-farming. But we still want it punished.

1 hour ago, akerman23 said:

I find it strange that the REDS clan cannot fill a city faster than pirates.

This is irrelevant, but we weren't even trying.

1 hour ago, Liq said:

Issue is how do you tell appart fake port battles fom "real" pb's? do you consider  a full PBs but in cheap ships, to practise for both sides, fake?

(being serious, since alliances were removed this is an issue now)

Well, their own declaration of intent helps like above. But it also comes down to what ports are involved. If Spain and Pirates simply wanted a training port-battle, they could've done so in Cayo Romano, which is a much less critical port.

On no less than 4 occasions I've been approached by clans from 3 different nations offering us actual training battles in important frontline ports that we had just captured from Sweden. Each time I refused because holding the training fights in those particular ports would make no sense other than the obvious ulterior motive, and if it would've been about any other ports, we wouldn't have had time for training fights.

But judging from the opinions of some Spanish and Swedish captains here I may have been too quick to dismiss these proposals. Maybe next time.

Edited by Anolytic
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8 minutes ago, Anolytic said:

the flip was part of a legitimate port-trade, and neither A or B above would happen. We joined a hostility mission at the request of an ally, with the express purpose that the port would be both flipped and the attack was real.

Imagine scenario (Most likely not gonna happen any time soon, just to make you realize): Vera Cruz gets captured by Sweden. Spanish help a rrussian alter clan (their "Ally" if you wish) grind hostility for Vera Cruz and capture it. The alter clan takes everyone off friendlist. Now you can't do anyhting about it - can't even go re-capture it themselves as Russia without using borked shennanigans themselves. I mean yeah it's fixed now, but you should still see this was an issue.

Sorry for the offtopic, I'll stop posting now

Edited by Liq
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25 minutes ago, Liq said:

Imagine scenario (Most likely not gonna happen any time soon, just to make you realize): Vera Cruz gets captured by Sweden. Spanish help a rrussian alter clan (their "Ally" if you wish) grind hostility for Vera Cruz and capture it. The alter clan takes everyone off friendlist. Now you can't do anyhting about it - can't even go re-capture it themselves as Russia without using borked shennanigans themselves. I mean yeah it's fixed now, but you should still see this was an issue.

I don't need to imagine this as a hypothetical scenario. This happened to REDS at Nassau after the bugged NPC-raids weekend (yeahyeah, they say they weren't bugged, but a week later they were fixed so). An alt-clan tried to take Nassau and do just that, something admin had said explicitly was just fine:

So why should there be different rules when Sweden is the affected party 2 weeks later?

Edited by Anolytic
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23 minutes ago, Anolytic said:

First of all, this is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Secondly Russia did not attack Spain. Russia hasn't bullied Spain. Spain attacked Russia, and even then, REDS didn't retaliate and tried leaving Spain alone. Spain ramped up their griefing, and instead of retaliation we offered Spain almost all the ports that we conquered from Dutch in the Florida Keys. 

REDS has been absolutely as careful as possible not to do unnecessary destruction to our enemies.

 

First this is not irrelevant, its the root of the problem we are talking about. Secondly your clan mates have been camping at La Habana and Gasparilla coast from months ago, hunting spanish players without respect for new players. Your clan mates have been bullying spanish players in game. We have seen it at combat news. I´m sure devs have the database which can assure it. You have a lot of information about it at spanish section of this game forum. You will see a lot of closed posts by moderator.

Yes, if spanish do what you like you will let them play the game. If they want to play by their own you will smash them. Its so easy like that.

You can walk this way till a map reset will be needed or till people will be turn tired of this unbalanced game and quit. 

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25 minutes ago, Alonso Alvarado said:

First this is not irrelevant, its the root of the problem we are talking about. Secondly your clan mates have been camping at La Habana and Gasparilla coast from months ago, hunting spanish players without respect for new players. Your clan mates have been bullying spanish players in game. We have seen it at combat news. I´m sure devs have the database which can assure it. You have a lot of information about it at spanish section of this game forum. You will see a lot of closed posts by moderator.

Yes, if spanish do what you like you will let them play the game. If they want to play by their own you will smash them. Its so easy like that.

You can walk this way till a map reset will be needed or till people will be turn tired of this unbalanced game and quit. 

I'll repost my meme from the other thread as it applies to this one.

bd11b488363584bdd8542f128555467a.png

Edited by Mouth of Sauron
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Another thread about one group complaining about another group for abusing RvR mechanics whilst also abusing RvR mechanics themselves.

Either abuse RvR and shut up when other people do it, or don't abuse RvR and complain at everyone doing it. Its just hello kittying sad at this point.

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How is this:

Quote

we took Remedios, we instantly gave it back, as soon as was possible.

functionally any different from what MERCY did, except that we saved some time by not actually capturing the port. Had we taken the port then given it "instantly back", would that have been acceptable to you? Sorry, I think you are trying to draw a distinction without a difference.

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5 hours ago, Thecontrollers said:

Its fair to do this but it also makes you look bad if you use another nation to attack the port to abuse the cooldown timers to prevent RvR.

We (Pirates) weren't "used" by Spain. We made a strategic decision to assist Spain in keeping Russia from taking Remedios in order to protect our Northwestern border from Russian incursions (like what happened last time Russia took Remedios), seeing as how we have a major crafting and trade hub not far from that port.

Edited by GrubbyZebra
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