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Discussion: Port battle points and cooldowns

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48 minutes ago, Burmistrz Pucka said:

Port Battles are not fine, but many players will just blame existence of Requin (just like redii does), Prince or other small ships instead of seeing the problem. As suggested long time ago, the mechanic of 1 tiny ship blocking points from entire fleet is pure form of "kiting". It always ends up in sit on the far edge of the circle and does not encourage fighting. If enemies get close to you, just sail upwind and get to the other edge of the circle. There are 2 simple solutions here:

  1. Contesting the cap does not entire block points influx, only halves it. So instead of getting 2 points per tick the controller of the zone would get 1 instead. Zone is controlled by the fleet with higher BR inside it. 
  2. Another option would be to make circles even smaller. Make it so you can't safely sit on the other edge of the zone while entirely blocking enemy team from getting points. 

The blocking mechanic may work in other games like World of Warships (our PB system is almost entirely copy-paste of WoWs), but with major differences. WoWs doesn't have wind factor, you can't sit upwind vs 1st rate that will spend 30 minutes tacking the wind trying to get to you. Also in WoWs range of guns is usually between 10-25km, meaning that most of the ships can fire at the ships contesting the zone, hence why it's extremely dangerous. In Naval Action if you sit on another edge of the zone and angled, best thing enemy can do is shoot your masts or sails, maybe some shaky bow/stern rake but it won't hurt much. You are basically very safe at that far distance, unless it's like 1st rate against 7th rate and even then there is a lot of potential for tanking, kiting and dodging. 

Summing up, small ships in PBs shouldn't be used for kiting or blocking but for fast tactical strikes and as vessel units that can quickly reinforce weaker parts of the fleet. Capture zones are not meant for "blocking points" and "kiting" but to concentrate fighting in designed places, encourage engaging in fight and minimize kiting. In the current state, they do not.

Also, as mentioned already in the topic, Hostility = PvE = no fun (but we all know this won't change despite numerous valid suggestions proposed in the past).

this all could be avoided when you have a mixed battle fleet in a PB and not only 1st rates and few tiny ships. when you look at the suggestions then it would  be the best way in the moment if you want to change the behavior of a PB.

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5 hours ago, admin said:

Battle itself: Capture zones, Points, Counters, Point distribution. 
Meta: entry circles, cool-downs between battles, BR for port battles

Capture zone and point system is overall fine.  Some propose giving zone A more weight. I am not sure about this: battles are already messy enough. I'd rather see more room for maneuvering, engaging / disengaging, rather than encourage head-on brawls. 

Entry circles look fine as well. Cool down might increased with a day, I suppose: to avoid rvr-related fatigue. I would also support the idea of monthly server-wide seize-fire, for instance first week-end of the month.  Plan some events like Date with Diana for that week-end.

Changes to BR and potentially some restriction on fleet composition offer the best opportunity for improvements:

  • BR limits should changed from 5700, 10600, 20000 to 5700, 10600, 16000 (+/-)
  • composition restrictions: 5700 (up to 3rd rate ships, no 6-7 rates), 10600 (up to 2nd rate ships, no 6-7 rates), 16000 (up to 1st rate, no 6-7 rates) Mortar brig could be allowed I guess, but they should be less effective against ships.
  • changes to ship BR along the lines suggested by rediii for example are also in order

P.S. Hostility is outside the scope of this topic and I realize making it better might be an never-ending story, but keep in mind it is still an annoying formality in many cases. At least fix the overlapping hostility sign.

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Here are my suggestions:

Port Battle
Circles
The circles work well, maybe you could add a landing zone where if a enemy trader enter it generates some points (small advantage for those who attack obviously, but it could be an incentive to be active). Enemy traders must be limited in number depending on the BR.
Le Requin
The problem of Le requin must be solved, a non-dlc alternative must be found. Perhaps it can be resolved by allowing Prince de Neuchatelle to participate.

Forts
I understand that reviewing the forts requires more effort from the developers, but I think they need to be given a different role. Initially there was talk of the possibility of customizing the type and position of the forts, it would be an incredible step forward. The points for building the forts should be different from those for developing the port. More forts you want built, the more they have to cost. Ports with more defenses, costs that increase almost exponentially. This could balance the game. In the PvP server there are many traders and crafters (the last ones at the moment almost unemployed unfortunately due to dlcs). Let s give the possibility, at enormous costs, to fortify a port and make it difficult to conquer, this would also give a purpose to non-pvp oriented clans.

Type of ships
Depending on the BR, it would be useful to provide restrictions on participation in the PB. Please find a way to create the possibility that different types of ships are present in the PB. Today the choice is between Redoutable / Implacable - Christian - Ocean / Santissima - Le requin. We have a lot of ships in the game, let s find space for them in the PBs (thanks Devs for the variety of ships in the game)

Conquering a port
Conquering a port must give advantages, why risk ships in the venture? So when you conquer a port two things happen:
Port loses two levels of crafting and forts bonuses. 50% of the corresponding value in relas and doubloons is divided among the winning participants of the PB. If it were possible it would be nice to have the possibility of having flags for each region, better for each port. If you win in that port you can use that flag. If too demanding, special flags for the winners or other aesthetic rewards could be expected. This could encourage PBs and be a fair reward. Personally I think all ports should be at least 50 points, this is because there are many nations in the game, and maybe there will be even more with the introduction of China, and all nations, even the smallest ones, should have a chance to craft decent ships to fight in PB (game balance for small nations).

Port Battles BR
The Br must be dimanic, possibly on a weekly basis, and must depend on:
1. Reals generated from taxes
2. Players with an outpost in the port

Cool-downs PB
The cool-downs between the PBs should also be as dynamic as for the BR. The better the port, the greater the cool-down.

Thanks

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Posted (edited)

Current 3 circle capture system with the possibility to deny enemy points from a circle they control, by just contesting it with low BR ship is OP. Evidence for this can be seen in most pbs, where meta for defenders fleet includes at least 1 and some times up to 5x Le Requins. They are not brought in there to fight, but to relive the main defending fleet from having to fight for control of circles. This forces attackers to bring Le Requin because it is the most powerfull ship we can get for 100BR and to hunt down and kill a Le Requin you need a Le Requin.

Underlying problem here is that we can deny those who control a circle points just by contesting it. This option need to be removed! Having the circle generate points at a reduced rate while being contested is fine, but to stop it generating points the BR needs to be equal for both sides.

Edit: Have to add I seriously dislike the circles because some how getting those points actually became more important than sinking the enemy.. That is not really fun imo.. 

Edited by Tiedemann
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Instantly flipped ports should not happen.

The goal of hostility missions should be providing defenders some time to react.

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7 hours ago, Burmistrz Pucka said:

There can be always more and more. There've been also "troll" port battles full of 25 requins/hercs and other small ships in large BR ports that are supposed to fill up with lineships. They normally should take more than 15 minutes to win, but small ships have large potential to troll in NA and some of them easily lasted over an hour. One fleet takes 2-3 requins, other fleet takes 6 requins. Giving up 1 large ship in place of more small ships to commence kiting tactics and blocking points. How many is enough small ships? The team with more small ships has more potential for kiting and they will fight less. "Mixed fleets" are good, but it doesn't solve small ships and kiting issue. 

The issue with the requin is that it's not a square rig ship. Smaller ships as long as they have square rigging are fine but requin, privateer etc basicly all ships that have their best saildirection into upwind are an issue.

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On 3/11/2020 at 12:07 AM, admin said:

Hello Captains

We iterated OW ROE to almost perfect state through a lot of pain (sorry). It can probably be better, but searching for better options will disrupt pvp. Maybe its time to do a final review for the port battles.

Post your thoughts on the following

Battle itself: Capture zones, Points, Counters, Point distribution. 
Meta: entry circles, cool-downs between battles, BR for port battles

 

 


A fight with the landing of troops as the purpose to capture the port.

https://forum.game-labs.net/topic/21271-the-conquest-part-1-port-battle-mechanics/

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On 3/11/2020 at 10:19 AM, Riot stick said:

What about the rvr monopoly that the two big nations have, are there any plans to balance that?

The only way to balance that would be to remove the frontline system. This ofc would make sense in terms of realism (The british capture of Havana in 1761 wasn't predicated upon a conquest of other ports in Cuba), from a gameplay perspective however I see upsides and downsides.

Upside would be the enabling of more PBs and thus more action in terms of RvR, but on the downside players will be forced to consider carefully their positioning of ships and the age old problem persists. What if a player is inactive for a prolonged period of time and just comes back to see all ships in captured ports?

Personally I'd prefer the frontline system to go, it's unrealistic and it's not imo giving anything meaningfull to the game.

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14 minutes ago, Louis Garneray said:

The nation that initiate a PB should get penalty if it doesn't show up for the battle...

Yeah punish someone for not being big enough of a zerg and thus get screened out... 

Make hostility missions cost something. 10k dubs or similar.

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Ports were usually be captured by landing forces and taking the forts and the town itself. It would be great to have this reflected in the game.

I would like to see the attacker having troops to transport from ships to circles on the beach (maybe little boats can be visible moving from the ship to the beach and back until all land forces are there. To win the port battle, the attacker has to land like 120% of the defending number of men. The defenders can be killed by shooting and destroying forts. So no circles for ships are needed.

The attacker can land soldiers, which he can hire in his own towns, they will be counted as supernumeries on the ships. The higher the number of soldiers compared to the max. amount of crew, the higher the penalty for sailing and reloading guns. Once all soldiers have left the ship, there will be no penalty at all. During boarding the soldiers will fight, of course. A captain shall be able to land his own ships crew in addition to the soldiers, though their efficiency on land is only like 75% of that of a soldier (except for marines).

 

To spice the port battles a little further and to bring more tactical elements and diversity in, please add real ships draft and water depth. A 1st rate might carry a lot of soldiers, but they have to row a long way to the beach and can be intercepted in the shallow waters by defending cutters and gunboats only... and similar scenarios.

This may give you the option to add new mod like "extra long boats" increasing their number and therefore the speed in which the soldiers are transported to the beach. The soldiers at the beach should be shown somehow and be equipped with a (small) hitbox, so the defenders are able to kill them, though they should be difficult to hit.

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