Guest Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 56 minutes ago, admin said: Take New Orleans Nassau in snows and we talk. Challenge ACCEPTED! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genevieve Malfleurs Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 3 hours ago, Durin said: tell me why its a good thing that every new ship is better then all the old ships? Hermione, leopard, rättvisan. Good ships but not outclassing the others. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquillas Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 4 hours ago, Lars Kjaer said: np, a niagara it is. Where? Could we get the video? 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
van Veen Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 6 hours ago, Lars Kjaer said: The redoubtable is not any better than the Bellona. Just check the map tool. The Bellona is clearly not comparable to a Redoutable. In game, the Redoutable can mount 36pd guns instead of 32pd guns. This is an error in the API data. 6 hours ago, Durin said: The only exception that comes to mind right now is the Wapen, There is another one: the Rättvisan. And another one: the Leopard. And... another one: the new Constitution. Not even mentioning Pandora, Santa Cecilia, Diana or Le Gros Ventre Refit. All of them were clearly not best of their class at the time of their introduction. 6 hours ago, Durin said: Not every new ship has to be the new best thing by default right? Agreed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubbyZebra Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 23 minutes ago, van Veen said: The Bellona is clearly not comparable to a Redoutable. In game, the Redoutable can mount 36pd guns instead of 32pd guns. This is an error in the API data. There is another one: the Rättvisan. And another one: the Leopard. And... another one: the new Constitution. Not even mentioning Pandora, Santa Cecilia, Diana or Le Gros Ventre Refit. All of them were clearly not best of their class at the time of their introduction. Agreed. Did the Bellona not get the bump to 36pdrs with the Treacherous Waters II patch? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baptiste Gallouédec Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 Pandora is clearly not the best in class ^^ same for Hermione, Ratt, Leopard.. Also don't you think people advocate for Montanes class in game bc it was the fastest ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 The Temeraire class ships were straight up better than the few (only one, really) peers we have in the game. It would be silly to have them underperform because the devs are afraid of powercreep backlash. When Leopard was added nobody gave a f/ 😛 .. so much so that the ship didn't even make OP's list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durin Posted February 13, 2020 Author Share Posted February 13, 2020 2 hours ago, Genevieve Malfleurs said: Hermione, leopard, rättvisan. Good ships but not outclassing the others. 45 minutes ago, Baptiste Gallouédec said: Pandora is clearly not the best in class ^^ same for Hermione, Ratt, Leopard.. good points, totally forgot about those ;D 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiedemann Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, Lars Kjaer said: The redoubtable is not any better than the Bellona. Just check the map tool. Huh, I did! Redoutable has more DPS, more HP, more thickness and more crew. As a hunter the Bellona is better because speed and wind profile, so it has an advantage if it has to chase or escape, angle and sterncamp. So in a 1vs1 it is arguable better or at least it is a balanced fight, but in a 10 vs 10 this will not be the case with equal skills. Then consider you can redeam the Redoutable in season wood, that buffs a lot of stats and reduces the speed advantage of the Bellona considerably. That is not the Redoutables fault, but the fact that most Bellonas are normal wood while most Redoutable are seasoned wood makes it a practical/valid argument. I think OP has a point, even though I do not agree on all the ships that are listed. It is not unusual that DLC ships are un-balanced when introduced, resulting in a needed rebalance for everything else.. L'Hermoinee and Rattveisan came out well balanced, and I'm assuming that they did not sell as well as the Le Requin, Hercules and now the Redoutable Edit: When a more modern ship is introduced in a ship rating that is full of older ships, then it is bound to be "OP". It's a newer generation ship! Then devs need feedback over time to balance it and I get that. Edited February 13, 2020 by Tiedemann 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durin Posted February 13, 2020 Author Share Posted February 13, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Tiedemann said: When a more modern ship is introduced in a ship rating that is full of older ships, then it is bound to be "OP" Exactly my point. There are plenty of interesting ships that could be added to enrich and round off the ships that we have now. They dont need to be the newest, most modern fighting machienes that fit into the time frame of the game. Even tho they where outdated at the time, im sure there where still some Fluyts, Galleons or Galleys floating around and being used, just to name a few types we dont have currently. edit: For example: A Fluyt could be the new largest shallow water Trade Ship, without completly replacing the Traders Brigs, since those would still be way cheaper and probably faster. Edited February 13, 2020 by Durin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 4 hours ago, Tiedemann said: Huh, I did! Redoutable has more DPS, more HP, more thickness and more crew. As a hunter the Bellona is better because speed and wind profile, so it has an advantage if it has to chase or escape, angle and sterncamp. So in a 1vs1 it is arguable better or at least it is a balanced fight, but in a 10 vs 10 this will not be the case with equal skills. Then consider you can redeam the Redoutable in season wood, that buffs a lot of stats and reduces the speed advantage of the Bellona considerably. That is not the Redoutables fault, but the fact that most Bellonas are normal wood while most Redoutable are seasoned wood makes it a practical/valid argument. I think OP has a point, even though I do not agree on all the ships that are listed. It is not unusual that DLC ships are un-balanced when introduced, resulting in a needed rebalance for everything else.. L'Hermoinee and Rattveisan came out well balanced, and I'm assuming that they did not sell as well as the Le Requin, Hercules and now the Redoutable Edit: When a more modern ship is introduced in a ship rating that is full of older ships, then it is bound to be "OP". It's a newer generation ship! Then devs need feedback over time to balance it and I get that. You can craft a Bellona in seasoned woods. You get a fixed set of port bonus' on the Bellona. When u compare the two ships u have to take into consideration the port bonus' and the random nature of those when u redeem. Can u get a ship that can compete with the bellona? Sure, but chances are u won't. As to the powercreep, I agree... 32pd carros on a snow that should sink right after creation is a bit much.. but powercreep is more complex than this. We now get more seasoned woods into the game from the privateer fleets and thus all normal woods have become redundant. This is the real and problematic powercreep, we all want to be competitive or atleast on a somewhat equal footing as the opponent, if the balance is screwed the game suffers - why be a lamb to someone elses slaughter? But balance has never been a prominent feature in the game, mods + port bonus' + permits + seasoned woods ensures that the best ships are crafted ships and will be limited to the most populous nations thus ensuring that regardless of their skill they will always be the stronk. That is the real powercreep in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoha Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 2 hours ago, Lars Kjaer said: You can craft a Bellona in seasoned woods. You get a fixed set of port bonus' on the Bellona. When u compare the two ships u have to take into consideration the port bonus' and the random nature of those when u redeem. Can u get a ship that can compete with the bellona? Sure, but chances are u won't. As to the powercreep, I agree... 32pd carros on a snow that should sink right after creation is a bit much.. but powercreep is more complex than this. We now get more seasoned woods into the game from the privateer fleets and thus all normal woods have become redundant. This is the real and problematic powercreep, we all want to be competitive or atleast on a somewhat equal footing as the opponent, if the balance is screwed the game suffers - why be a lamb to someone elses slaughter? But balance has never been a prominent feature in the game, mods + port bonus' + permits + seasoned woods ensures that the best ships are crafted ships and will be limited to the most populous nations thus ensuring that regardless of their skill they will always be the stronk. That is the real powercreep in the game. S-wood Bellonas are very rare. I dont know of anyone with one they built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 19 minutes ago, Yoha said: S-wood Bellonas are very rare. I dont know of anyone with one they built. I made one a week after they reintroduced rare woods.. And with the patch that increases rare woods from privateers you won't see normal wood ships anymore... Except from the new players/casuals but hey, it's not like they leave the game in throves anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoha Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Lars Kjaer said: I made one a week after they reintroduced rare woods.. And with the patch that increases rare woods from privateers you won't see normal wood ships anymore... Except from the new players/casuals but hey, it's not like they leave the game in throves anyway. Ok, so we have 1 S wood Bellona. Good to know. Let me know when you can produce one S wood Bellona every 24 hours. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 On 2/13/2020 at 8:23 PM, Yoha said: Ok, so we have 1 S wood Bellona. Good to know. Let me know when you can produce one S wood Bellona every 24 hours. In principle I could. But - and this is an important point - the port bonus' on Redoubtables are random, the ones on my Bellona is not. Another point is that there's more care when u take a crafted ship out than with the redeemables, this is both the curse and the attraction of the redeemable ships - they're basically free yolo ships. Is this a problem from an econ standpoint? sure. Is it a problem for the gameplay? Not necessarily and the 24h argument can be made (and has been made) for all the DLC ships. Sorry but your ship has sailed, you have to purchase a new ticket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoatyMcBoatFace Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 (edited) I would n e v e r take a seasoned bellona out "for fun". all my "seriously awesome crafted ships" collect dock space dust. DLCs are awesome. 1v5? yeah ill fight you. come to me! dont care! With a crafted ship such an encouter will be 1h30 minutes of me running around followed by how many other hours following retags and what not until you all just give up. Is that better? Is that more fun? I doubt it. Today people had nothing but DLC in the PZ for the most part. And the PZ is still rocking way into the off hours. #DLCSHIPSMATTER Edited February 16, 2020 by BoatyMcBoatFace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durin Posted February 16, 2020 Author Share Posted February 16, 2020 36 minutes ago, BoatyMcBoatFace said: all my "seriously awesome crafted ships" collect dock space dust i dont have any ship dlc, yet i sail around daily on ships worth many millions. maybe you do something wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stilgar Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 Yes, that was always the trend. Aggie and wasa are two that come to mind. New ship should be exciting and best way to do it is to make her (a bit) OP. The stats for most ships were eventually balanced (Christian still a bit too good, I'd say) As for DLC ships, I do not have major problems with them as long as crafting still makes sense and crafted ships are overall better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conte D. Catellani Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 (edited) Do you think that Leopard is not good like the other ship in the thread? I mean more anonymous? Edited February 16, 2020 by Conte D. Catellani Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoatyMcBoatFace Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 2 hours ago, Durin said: i dont have any ship dlc, yet i sail around daily on ships worth many millions. maybe you do something wrong? sorry i dont sail in 10 man gank fleets like you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoha Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 On 2/15/2020 at 8:35 PM, Lars Kjaer said: In principle I could. But - and this is an important point - the port bonus' on Redoubtables are random, the ones on my Bellona is not. Another point is that there's more care when u take a crafted ship out than with the redeemables, this is both the curse and the attraction of the redeemable ships - they're basically free yolo ships. Is this a problem from an econ standpoint? sure. Is it a problem for the gameplay? Not necessarily and the 24h argument can be made (and has been made) for all the DLC ships. Sorry but your ship has sailed, you have to purchase a new ticket. No player on their own could come up with a Bellona permit every day, manufacture the S woods required, and craft a Bellona every 24 hours. Your principles are way off from reality. Redoubtable is better than the Bellona because it's free and therefore it's no great loss if one is sunk (Aka a yolo ship as you state). The stat difference between the two is close enough that player skill matters more. New DLC ships would not sell if they were not better or did not have some type of advantage over comparable ships. This game is certainly well on it's way to becoming P2P or P2W. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimpy117 Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 On 2/12/2020 at 8:55 PM, Lars Kjaer said: Actually the endymion was by and far not the best 5th rate. The connie had more firepower, more hp, better sailing profile.. The Endymion could basically only sail in a straight line when they added her.. The redoubtable is not any better than the Bellona. Just check the map tool. The Snow is not "mediocre", it's the best in class by far, it outperform any other 6th rate, has a magical turnrate, 32pd carros and only slightly less hp and carro weight than the Niagara.. And due to it's insane turnrate the snow will always be best in class.. Actually @admin could you please revisit the snow? I won't say it should be realistic (as in sink immediately after being crafted) but it makes 0 sense that the best 6th rate in class sank on a lake, in it's very first storm... on a lake.. and it just happens to be best in class. well yeah it did sink in the great lakes, those can have big storms,rough swell...700 foots modern ships have been lost on the lakes even...but what you are correct that the first storm it encountered it founded basically undamaged.also i touched upon that really here: "can any ship really hold it's own against a snow" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptEdwardKenway Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 The question is: why are all the best ships french? L'Ocean - french, Implaceable - french but captured by the Royal Navy, Redoutable - french, Buccentaure - french. The best 1st, 2nd and 3rd rates are all french. And we know that there have been better ships then them. The Temeraire class was a good ship but there have been also great spanish and british SOL. HMS Superb, Santa Anna, Sovereign of the Seas, HMS Temeraire - a 98 gun 2nd rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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