Research system should be reworked

[JerryRocy]

I play as Brit, now I will atack Savanah, game still didnt offered me grenadiers. But it twice offered me light infantry (which is useless). This random tech offer sytem is not good.

[WilliamTheIII]

This topic has been discussed to great length and one thing seems certain, this system is not going away. I feel that the best way to make the RNG system more fun is to introduce a weighting system that makes certain techs more or less guaranteed over time. What are your thoughts on this idea or perhaps you have a different system you would like to suggest?

[Guardian54]

1. Research the Light Infantry to make room for Grenadiers to pop up.

2. PROFIT!

[JerryRocy]

OK, thanks Guardin. So techtree in game would be helful.

[doublebuck]

Random is one thing but getting two light infantry draws in your choice of the three is not random good that's more like playing a slot machine. I played 22 battels in the American Campaign and not once did it give me the cannon tech so I think that is crap.

I suppose the DEV nerfed the cannons anyway to a negative for in 22 battles which I am not sure how many are land battles but for what I am saying is in every land battle I capture one to three cannon units. In one battle, my marines captured 18 guns making three cannon units which realistically I should of had all 18 guns put into my armory as a reward and I am telling you in the whole campaign not one gun in all those battles made it into my armory. I would like to know if anybody else noticed this?

A month ago, you could use your marine unit to capture a cannon unit and then your marine unit would turn into a cannon unit on your transport ship even though you didn't have the cannon tech but now with the updates that won't happen.

The hard DEV must of nerfed it and hey that might be ok maybe if you didn't have the cannon tech then why should you be able to obtain a cannon unit which might make sense but what is not realistic is not allowing us to keep the guns we capture so none make it to the armory as a reward.  Whether you have the tech or not you still should be able to capture and keep the guns in your armory and if you destroy a cannon unit on the field I can see maybe like in UGCW you get a percentage of the guns but why I am getting zero of them is messed up.

Is this a easy way for the DEV to make the game harder just by not allowing us the guns we capture on the field to make it to our armory?

My point on the guns is I captured a ton of them and I have none as a reward within the whole current campaign.

 

[Guardian54]

11 minutes ago, doublebuck said:

Is this a easy way for the DEV to make the game harder just by not allowing us the guns we capture on the field to make it to our armory?

My point on the guns is I captured a ton of them and I have none as a reward within the whole current campaign.

It seems to me that to capture guns you must have them under control at the end of a battle, not abandoned. I've captured a good few guns before, but there does seem to be an appreciable fraction discount, ugh.

[WilliamTheIII]

@doublebuckYour comment has literally nothing to do with this thread and are essentially hijacking it. Also you are really just complaining about an apparent change or bug.

That being said, units that capture artillery units will not count towards captured guns which is why you should always detach allied units from artillery before the battle is over (which I would like to see changed). Apparently, we no longer receive artillery units that our units capture. If this is the case, then the same thing is being applied where the game isn't actually counting the artillery as captured but rather as a friendly unit resulting in no captured guns. As you have pointed out, being able to just capture 18 guns out of the blue could become pretty strong especially for the US who have a lack of money and so only receiving a percentage makes sense. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by WilliamTheIII

[WilliamTheIII]

3 minutes ago, Guardian54 said:

It seems to me that to capture guns you must have them under control at the end of a battle, not abandoned.

I have only experienced this being the other way around. Where you will only receive abandoned guns. Sterner did confirm this at the beginning of the month and I haven't seen anything in the patch notes saying this has changed. Although, I haven't had the chance to really dive back into things so I could be wrong.

[doublebuck]

16 minutes ago, WilliamTheIII said:

I have only experienced this being the other way around. Where you will only receive abandoned guns. Sterner did confirm this at the beginning of the month and I haven't seen anything in the patch notes saying this has changed. Although, I haven't had the chance to really dive back into things so I could be wrong.

Who are you to tell me what I know or did or did not?  When I go into a land battle in a brand new campaign after all the updates and I am telling you I know what my units are compared to the ally units so I only use my units to capture the enemy cannon units and all I am saying is in 22 freaking battles I did not get the cannon tech nor did I get any of the freaking guns as a reward in my armor which would be realistic.  Why do I get plenty of rifles from the battle but no cannons at all? 

If you want to say I am hijacking well I don't care what you think and I will tell you I may put it anywhere to get a freaking answer or a response. It's my right!

[doublebuck]

47 minutes ago, Guardian54 said:

It seems to me that to capture guns you must have them under control at the end of a battle, not abandoned. I've captured a good few guns before, but there does seem to be an appreciable fraction discount, ugh.

Interesting. My own units that capture cannon units are always in the battle to the end and all I am saying is I get none back into my armory as a reward all I do get back is rifles and this was in a new campaign so I am saying something has change when it comes to cannons and all I want to know is why?

[WilliamTheIII]

22 minutes ago, doublebuck said:

When I go into a land battle in a brand new campaign after all the updates and I am telling you I know what my units are compared to the ally units so I only use my units to capture the enemy cannon units

You did not understand what I said. You are experiencing either a bug or a feature change that makes it so units no longer magically convert into artillery units at the end of the battle. In the past, when they did so, you would receive captured cannons that are now placed on these unit. Because of this, the only way to actually receive captured cannons is to have the artillery be abandoned at the end of the mission. This was confirmed by Sterner and there has been no mention of it being changed in the patch notes which is why I assume that the artillery still needs to be abandoned by the end of the mission. I will do my best to confirm this when I get home. Have you tried doing this on a fresh start or have you only left your own units attached the artillery?

[Andre Bolkonsky]

15 hours ago, WilliamTheIII said:

This topic has been discussed to great length and one thing seems certain, this system is not going away. I feel that the best way to make the RNG system more fun is to introduce a weighting system that makes certain techs more or less guaranteed over time. What are your thoughts on this idea or perhaps you have a different system you would like to suggest?

This is actually one of the smartest ways to do it knowing how the game is designed. It would correct the situation without requiring a ton of code changes. Just fine tune the method and agree on which techs are most important - and that might be the tricky part because the naval guys won't care about grenadiers and the land guys won't care about rigging weight. 

[Guardian54]

1 hour ago, Andre Bolkonsky said:

and that might be the tricky part because the naval guys won't care about grenadiers and the land guys won't care about rigging weight. 

Not hard at all.

Just tilt it depending on what the player chooses for big battles like Snatch.

[doublebuck]

5 hours ago, WilliamTheIII said:

You did not understand what I said. You are experiencing either a bug or a feature change that makes it so units no longer magically convert into artillery units at the end of the battle. In the past, when they did so, you would receive captured cannons that are now placed on these unit. Because of this, the only way to actually receive captured cannons is to have the artillery be abandoned at the end of the mission. This was confirmed by Sterner and there has been no mention of it being changed in the patch notes which is why I assume that the artillery still needs to be abandoned by the end of the mission. I will do my best to confirm this when I get home. Have you tried doing this on a fresh start or have you only left your own units attached the artillery?

I guess I didn't understand. Are you saying I need to release my marines from the cannon unit that I captured before the battle or timer ends in order for some percentage of the guns will be in the battle goods report and they will show up in my armory which if I don't have the tech to build a cannon unit but at least I could sell them for money? I been playing two new campaigns on two computers so when I have the same problem on both of them something is not right.  As for units converting from before or not now I don't care that they may have removed it.  I was upset for not getting the tech for cannons and not getting any cannons from all those land battles.  I only get rifles in the whole campaign that is why I reported this.

I guess I will try and play another land battle and I will release the men from it by the end of battle and see if I get any. Seems a little off on what it should be like in NASSAU I captured 19 guns and didn't get any so I just wish the DEV would fix/set or change it so what we capture we get to keep it.  When it comes to a sea battle we capture a ship and it becomes a trophy so why can't that be the case for land battle when we capture cannons what we capture we should get them as goods.  We get rifles so why not guns too? 

[pandakraut]

Looking at the issues with captured land cannon is almost certainly on their list of things to get to. It's just lower priority than fixing crashes and other blocking issues at the moment.

[doublebuck]

20 hours ago, pandakraut said:

Looking at the issues with captured land cannon is almost certainly on their list of things to get to. It's just lower priority than fixing crashes and other blocking issues at the moment.

Well I hope so Panda and I also hope that you as a modder should know of all the problems in UGCW that never worked correctly when the game was finished so I don't want this new game to be like that old game.  

Part topic and not. No cannon tech in after 22 battles in two campaigns so I can't produce a cannon unit.  A month or two ago when we captured a unit like cannons or supply wagons we got them as goods or as a unit which was a feature the DEV put into this new game unlike in UGCW where we only got a small percentage of the guns of the units we destroyed or captured.

I don't know if everybody here could vote to the DEV? What you gave us and took away let's bring it back or whatever you would like? I can understand if we don't have cannon tech we can't make a unit but if that is then we should be able to keep all the guns so they should show up in the goods report.   If we want to pick apart that battle report that maybe 60% of it might be correct there is so much missing from what really happened in the battle I am not talking about one battle I am talking about the whole game of battles.

If I capture 19 guns all those guns should be in the goods report without any effort by me other than capturing that unit.

If we capture a cannon unit it becomes ours and we can use it to fight the enemy, therefore it is ours and we shouldn't have to abandon the unit to get some guns. I just did that in a battle and I captured 19 guns so I abandoned them all and I only got 3 guns in the goods report which is better than none however I feel I should have all 19 guns in the goods.

I recently captured 500 infantry and I kept them all on the filed and the game reports none missing and I got no rifles and in this case I think I should get credit for capturing that many and I should have had all those 500 rifles if Washington's army captured 500 British and 19 guns he would have just that 500 rifles and all 19 guns and that would be realistic.

In a sea battle we get all the ships we capture so in a land battle we should get all the guns, all the supply wagons and all the rifles from all prisoners that we capture and that is the way it should be.  Why do we have to detach from a unit now just to get  a very small percentage of the guns we capture?

As for the random tech, how much tech does each of us need or want?  I wanted boarding kits for a long time and finally the DEV put them into the American campaign so now I have them but why no cannon tech yet?  When I first bought this backer build I got all kinds of guns so I want them back I mean thank GOD we can still can capture cannons in the battle and use them in to fight the enemy for I think if we didn't have them it would make some of the land battles nearly impossible to win.

[pandakraut]

1 hour ago, doublebuck said:

I recently captured 500 infantry and I kept them all on the filed and the game reports none missing and I got no rifles and in this case I think I should get credit for capturing that many and I should have had all those 500 rifles if Washington's army captured 500 British and 19 guns he would have just that 500 rifles and all 19 guns and that would be realistic.

We already have a great example of why this is bad design. In the US campaign the player received so many weapons from the battle of Bunker Hill that they could completely ignore buying any weapons for a significant part of the released campaign. The game allows for far higher kill and capture rates than occurred historically. Because of this player rewards inherently have to be limited to balance the game.

[doublebuck]

49 minutes ago, pandakraut said:

We already have a great example of why this is bad design. In the US campaign the player received so many weapons from the battle of Bunker Hill that they could completely ignore buying any weapons for a significant part of the released campaign. The game allows for far higher kill and capture rates than occurred historically. Because of this player rewards inherently have to be limited to balance the game.

I don't know if the design is bad? You can't make a game that is 100% historical anyway but I don't want them to drop the ball on this game. Whether they give us too much weapons after Bunker Hill or not shouldn't be a reason to prevent us from gaining all that we capture because it is just not FAIR compared to the sea trophy's we get. All I want is equality between sea and land battles and the goods and or rewards we get for doing a good job in the battle.

Most people agree American campaign is harder.  I mean it costs us REP sometimes to upgrade our crew or infantry. They will have to balance things but there is no way this game is ready for steam.  They still have two POI's that will give us a second wounded game mission. For, a lot of battles the report doesn't reflect what happened in the battle. The objectives are red instead of green, people and things captured are missing and not properly accounted for, sometimes officers are not accounted for, stats show one thing goods show less or something else and not giving us what we captured yet the stats may show it. I could probably write a book about all the things wrong with the battle report alone and I think frankly the moment they made one battle and made the stats mechanic should have been resolved to work right from the start so when you add the next battle things like that should run like a train on a track, nice and smooth.

I think it is an oversight as to why those things don't work right and I will bet some may never be corrected and they will put this game out just like they did with UGCW and they will walk away and move on to something else and then that's when you will do what you do always! Sorry for the rant! LOL