The current technology system has to go

[roachbeef]

Already talked about in Discord, but this will be more permanent.

The developers are doing a stellar job and I don't mean any disrespect, but the current technology system is pretty much the worst possible system that could have happened.

Why has the dev team abandoned the tried-and-true technology tree and instead tried to reinvent the wheel (and made it square)? I suppose the RNG system was envisioned to add replayability, but it only adds frustration right now as you're given tech you don't want or can't equip anyways. Currently, mostall players go by without ever seeing most technologies. And even with the reroll system, the RNG can screw you over and leave you with technologies you do not have the weight to equip anyways. Players should be given agency in which tech they choose to buy and not be left to the tender mercies of RNG. If balance is an issue, they already have limited finances (for buying tech), shop inventory limits (for researchable weapons), and the weight limits (for ship upgrades). 

 

There is a very simple solution to this problem, one already found in another game: Hearts of Iron IV. In HOI4, the earlier you research a technology before the date of its historical discovery, the time it takes to research it grows exponentially. In addition, it uses the conventional tech tree so there are prerequisite technologies. Both prevent cheese strategies by researching certain technologies early on. Change research time to money required to buy, and you have a solution to the technology "bush" you have in this game. Have each tech be tiered to a turn number or date, and increase the cost of high-tier exponentially the earlier you are. You get your balance and a tech tree that doesn't have me replaying the intro mission for an hour so RNG can give me a better roll in technology.

 

 

P.S. Speaking of upgrades, given that sails are destroyed pretty often, why are sails permanent upgrades? Maybe there should be an unequip cost instead to represent having to tear out the sails. And the weight limits are too strict for hull or sail to be worth it for most combat vessels.

 

[WilliamTheIII]

So this game isn't HOI4 and comparing its tech system is weird as they aren't remotely similar games. Also, the meta for HOI is to get techs super early such as 1943 tanks by 1939 (Why Germany is so strong).

I agree that the tech system is in need of work however having a tech tree has its flaws too. For example, you need to unlock three techs before you get grenadiers. All that happens is you just pay a bunch of money and rep to skip through the techs you don't want and get straight to grenadiers. Essentially, there is not variety in this system and makes every game the same. An RNG system allows for this variety and most techs in the game are useful in some way or another. Part of this, is that there are more techs in the game then you will ever be able to see. In terms of lore, it makes sense that only certain things are available for you at a certain time and the admiralty wants to withhold the best stuff for more important regions. In my opinion, the best way to fix the RNG system is to introduce a weight system. This will help guarantee that over time you will see important techs like grenadiers or weapons. 

I normally don't see my sails getting significantly damaged. Is this something encountered by really drawn out encounters? The weight limit is in all honesty not that bad. The reduced weight from guns upgrade more or less allows you to equip whatever else you want on the ship assuming you keep the crew near optimal.

[Rygoat]

Right now, the tech seems bad due to lack of levels.  I think if you want replayability, you can't unlock all tech by the end of the game, but with end of chapter rerolls, you can get a max of 12 tech for 3 chapters.  There seems to be probably close to 30 different options (though british automatically has like 12 unlocked at the start)

Although I too dislike the current system, and propose a few options. 

With status quo RNG, forfeited tech should never return unless there is no other options.

Otherwise, use tech pools.  That is, come up with 4 or 5 categories for research, and have the user prioritize 2.  The priority 1 can get up to 2 tech, and priority 2 can get 1 tech.  The tech randomization would then come from that chosen pool unless exhausted.

Example, some categories I think are good are:

Units

Defensive tech (armor, speed, sails, rudder)

Offensive tech (boarding, special shots)

Land weapons (all muskets and land cannons)

Naval weapons 

 

[roachbeef]

58 minutes ago, WilliamTheIII said:

... having a tech tree has its flaws too. 

That's why I said techs should

 

1 hour ago, roachbeef said:

Have each tech be tiered to a turn number or date

without having a tech tree. The HOI4 reference was to penalize players for rushing techs too early.

I disagree with your premise that the RNG in tech adds replay value. It should be the player's decision to go on a pyromaniac-no-guns-only-fireship/no-guns-only-boarding/mortar-only/4-lber-only/no-artillery run for shits and giggles/challenge, not the game forcing you to go without artillery and skirmishers when the AI uses them in every single battle. There are already different ways the player can add variety to the game. If RNG makes you go through 5 playthroughs without ever seeing a tech you thought was cool after hearing about it from Discord and wanted to try out, would you consider that variety? Most people won't feel that, because the game is limiting what you can do and taking away player freedom and agency. So far it's only forced me to restart the campaign after the intro battle to try to get more techs, since the RNG seems precalculated.

Your solution to introduce a weight system will only work if certain techs are not RNG-based, as the number of techs versus the number you can buy in one playthrough is hopelessly small. 

 

1 hour ago, WilliamTheIII said:

The reduced weight from guns upgrade more or less allows you to equip whatever else you want

A lot of upgrades range from 180 to 450 arbitrary units (tons?). What you said might be possible with the lvl 2 gun weight upgrade, but that I saw that tech once in nine playthroughs.

 

59 minutes ago, WilliamTheIII said:

I normally don't see my sails getting significantly damaged

They don't very often, but given that you can lose masts and sails in the game and repair the ship later on, it makes sense for you to be able to repair the sails. As to why you can see that I've gotten tired of boarding and have experimented with trying to destroy the sails of the SOL in the Treasure mission then rake them from the bow/stern. So far I've only succeeded in losing the armor on my 6th rates 😛 —this tactic probably won't work for more than one ship and sails take forever to destroy, even with my own SOL joining in—but I'm experimenting with different combinations right now. Will probably burn the others and leave one alive for testing.

 

33 minutes ago, Rygoat said:

Otherwise, use tech pools

Might work. Anything than status quo, any sort of player choice in the matter, would be nice.

 

TL;DR the current tech system is bad. It reduces player choice and imposes an inefficient solution to what many might consider a nonexistent problem.

[WilliamTheIII]

53 minutes ago, Rygoat said:

you can get a max of 12 tech for 3 chapters

Tech's re roll every stage not chapter so that is ~30 give or take quick maths.

 

54 minutes ago, Rygoat said:

here seems to be probably close to 30 different options

Last I looked, there were ~150 total techs in the game however most aren't available yet or are starting techs. Iirc there are 54 techs currently available for purchase.

 

56 minutes ago, Rygoat said:

Otherwise, use tech pools.  That is, come up with 4 or 5 categories for research, and have the user prioritize 2.  The priority 1 can get up to 2 tech, and priority 2 can get 1 tech.  The tech randomization would then come from that chosen pool unless exhausted.

This is a very interesting idea and I quite like it

11 minutes ago, roachbeef said:

Your solution to introduce a weight system will only work if certain techs are not RNG-based

This is not true. Let's say all techs have a base chance to appear at 5%. By Fireworks, grenadiers receive an additional 5% to their chance to appear making it 10% and gets higher as the game progresses. While RNG can still keep you from accessing certain techs, the probability of seeing certain important techs increases exponentially over time.

 

17 minutes ago, roachbeef said:

A lot of upgrades range from 180 to 450 arbitrary units (tons?). What you said might be possible with the lvl 2 gun weight upgrade, but that I saw that tech once in nine playthroughs.

This isn't true either. I'll post a couple pictures from my old play through with a bunch of ships fully upgraded. Although this is not how I would upgrade my ships anymore, it is still very doable to have plenty of room for good crew sizes and equipment with level one gun weight reduction. Also note, I never used the upgrade that reduced my ships stats for weight:

21 minutes ago, roachbeef said:

sails take forever to destroy

At around half health, it does seem sails become very difficult to knock down as the shots consistently miss or hit an already damaged area resulting with no damage. This is also with using manual aim.

 

[Kilroy Was Here]

For what it's worth, I'm ok with the current tech system.  For me, the random techs which become available keep the game from becoming stale.  This unpredictability has given me different outcomes each time I've played through.  I also keep in mind that the game is in Alpha.  I would not be surprised if there's changes for balancing and polishing.  I look forward to seeing how the game progresses.

Also for what it's worth, I like the land battles in addition to the naval battles.

 

[pandakraut]

It was mentioned on the discord today that the devs will be trying out tech refreshing after every battle instead of every stage. Between the far more frequent refreshes and the ability to discard techs for free it should be much easier to get to the techs you want with this system.

Personally, I also like the unpredictability of being forced to adapt to whatever you are given instead of being able to choose an optimal route every time. Far to many of the techs just don't seem necessary at the moment which is as much a comment on the combat balancing left to be done as the techs themselves.

[PinkyDK]

I would love for each stage to allow you to pick a technology, get a few for free (with a link to the career points) and then push the others to the next stage where you can repeat but with a bigger pool to select from for each stage you advance...

[Anthropoid]

I don't see a big problem with the current system. It is a bit "gamey," in how you just spend some resources and BAM, invented. But apart from that, it seems adequate.

[buddha69]

I think it needs some modification. Maybe if they gave you more options but only let you select a few.  For instance, they give you 5 options but you can only select up to a max of 3 of them.  Hopefully this will fix me going through all the current available game, and the only ground troops I can produce is militia.  The other issue I have is when I have something like "German weapons 1", and want the second level. But the options I am given are "French Weapons 1" and "Spanish weapons 1".

[Anthropoid]

I'm still early days here; probably only about 30 hours 😆 . . . damn this game is ADDICTIVE. This design almost exactly in my sweet spot for ideal, even though I've spent a good deal of time raging at my screen because of some of the design decisions, some of which are just gaps in UI/UX but others of which are (as  play more) done quite intentionally to make the game more of a hardcore "Grog" experience (but more of that later, I'm still trying to beat the America campaign on easy . . .).

With that said: I am now seeing some  of the issues with technology. Good example: Fusiliers. In my experience, if you do not get that one as a pretty early option you're likely to be hosed on some of the early land combats. Now maybe players who are even more skilled than me can manage some of those early scenarios with militia, but it is certainly going to be more difficult. Given one can "skip phase" maybe I'm making too much of an issue out of the fact that the current design might restrict players to skipping certain early campaign fights. But the fact they are seemingly very random is a bit unrealistic.