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Battle observations


KiloZulu

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I only come back to the forums rarely, so I apologize if these observations have been discussed at length already.  I merely wish to pass on my observations from playing the current build.  With the current patch, I've encountered the following on a regular basis:

Retreating ships are incredibly difficult to defeat.  This is a combination of things.  By keeping their stern pointed towards your ship, nothing forward of their midships seems to be capable of being damaged.  You end up damaging the same modules over and over, which does no further damage to the ship after their destruction.  Meanwhile, some modules are thus completely protected from attack.  I can destroy one funnel, but not two.  I can destroy the aft tower, but rarely the main tower.  I can destroy some of the main guns, but will forever hit the same ones rather than any of the others shooting me.  The engines and rudder seem to be immune, too.  Depending on the enemy's armor thickness, HE can circumvent this problem.  With lighter armor, HE will quickly cause flooding that slows and sinks the opponent.  If the enemy has sufficient armor, proper anti-flooding, and/or bulkheads, they can often ignore HE, as well.

You are forced to chase into their return fire - limiting the number of guns you can bring to bear, and oftentimes leaving you at a disadvantage in firepower.  Withering fire from the enemy in this manner leads to destroyed modules that slow your own ship.  All the modules that I couldn't hit from astern are easy targets from the bow.  Frequently this can slow you to the point that you'll be unable to chase down other fleeing ships.  This is made awkward if your own ship isn't designed for such head-on combat (cruiser vs dreadnought for example.)  So many of my battles have ended with me simply exiting in disgust - the enemy BB's decks red from bow to stern, but the hull beneath is green aside from any early damage I delivered prior to their retreating.  Enemy destroyers and light cruisers are fleeing at flank speeds in opposite directions.  Meanwhile, my forward sections are flooded and I've lost multiple engines after hours spent in pursuit.

In general, I suggest either a change to AI or some new game mechanic needs to be implemented to address fleeing ships.  I'd recommend that the player be granted victory if all enemy ships are in retreat.  Alternatively, any ship that retreats for x minutes is automatically removed from the map and considered to be defeated.  I recognize that fleeing when damaged/outmatched is a viable tactic, but the mission objectives don't account for victory by retreat, and there are issues with the combat system that give an unfair advantage to retreating ships.  

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Enemy AI seems to be capable of repairing damaged modules, while the player is unable to do so.  I frequently see the AI repair a damaged rudder or engine, for example, while my own ships have never recovered from a damaged module.  Pairing this with the previous issue can lead to some absurd situations.  No matter how many times you destroy the enemy rudder, they always seem capable of turning to keep you behind them.  They can cause flooding/engine damage that slows your ship such that they're eventually able to draw away from you and retreat altogether.

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I've encountered times where my guns will stop firing on a target, or only one turret will fire.  I've also seen them switch from a target I've specified.  In either case, the enemy suddenly gets "free" shots on me.  Similarly, multi-tube torpedo launchers will sometimes only fire from one tube rather than firing a full spread.  It will not launch the rest until it has finished a full reload cycle.

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The percentage to hit shown does not seem to reflect reality.  As an example, I might have five turrets with three guns each, that supposedly have a 20% chance to hit a target x km away.  It's very common to see multiple salvos miss the target, even though my ship should get three hits per salvo on average.  Conversely, I've come to accept that the enemy which only has a 3% chance to hit with its return fire will hit (repeatedly bypassing 24" of armor to cause flooding with its 9" guns in my most recent game.)

Edited by KiloZulu
Phrase corrections.
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49 minutes ago, KiloZulu said:

Retreating ships are incredibly difficult to defeat.  This is a combination of things.  By keeping their stern pointed towards your ship, nothing forward of their midships seems to be capable of being damaged.  You end up damaging the same modules over and over, which does no further damage to the ship after their destruction.  Meanwhile, some modules are thus completely protected from attack.  I can destroy one funnel, but not two.  I can destroy the aft tower, but rarely the main tower.  I can destroy some of the main guns, but will forever hit the same ones rather than any of the others shooting me.  The engines and rudder seem to be immune, too.  Depending on the enemy's armor thickness, HE can circumvent this problem.  With lighter armor, HE will quickly cause flooding that slows and sinks the opponent.  If the enemy has sufficient armor, proper anti-flooding, and/or bulkheads, they can often ignore HE, as well.

In broad terms, this corresponds to my experience. I've taken to calling red objects Indestructible and I have had to resort to driving my battleship real close to "stab" the enemy ship to death, always fearing I might just be counter-stabbed. I try to delay until all his main turrets go red.

50 minutes ago, KiloZulu said:

You are forced to chase into their return fire - limiting the number of guns you can bring to bear, and oftentimes leaving you at a disadvantage in firepower.  Withering fire from the enemy in this manner leads to destroyed modules that slow your own ship.  All the modules that I couldn't hit from astern are easy targets from the bow.  Frequently this can slow you to the point that you'll be unable to chase down other fleeing ships.  This is made awkward if your own ship isn't designed for such head-on combat (cruiser vs dreadnought for example.)  So many of my battles have ended with me simply exiting in disgust - the enemy BB's decks red from bow to stern, but the hull beneath is green aside from any early damage I delivered prior to their retreating.  Enemy destroyers and light cruisers are fleeing at flank speeds in opposite directions.  Meanwhile, my forward sections are flooded and I've lost multiple engines after hours spent in pursuit.

As a basic proposition, cruisers aren't supposed to beat dreadnoughts one on one. Though the game does make it harder than it should be, the base problem here seems to be your ship designs (your nose fire being weaker than their stern fire), and your lack of a decisive combat advantage.

54 minutes ago, KiloZulu said:

In general, I suggest either a change to AI or some new game mechanic needs to be implemented to address fleeing ships.  I'd recommend that the player be granted victory if all enemy ships are in retreat.  Alternatively, any ship that retreats for x minutes is automatically removed from the map and considered to be defeated.  I recognize that fleeing when damaged/outmatched is a viable tactic, but the mission objectives don't account for victory by retreat, and there are issues with the combat system that give an unfair advantage to retreating ships.  

Let me give a counterargument. First, setting the winning condition to be sinking the ship is at least clear cut and objective. Second, why should humans be judged the victor based solely on them getting an early advantage? The computer did the smart thing and withdrew at the right time and put you in a position you don't dare pursue or will lose your advantage if you try to chase him. Shouldn't that be called, uh, a draw?

58 minutes ago, KiloZulu said:

Enemy AI seems to be capable of repairing damaged modules, while the player is unable to do so.  I frequently see the AI repair a damaged rudder or engine, for example, while my own ships have never recovered from a damaged module.  Pairing this with the previous issue can lead to some absurd situations.  No matter how many times you destroy the enemy rudder, they always seem capable of turning to keep you behind them.  They can cause flooding/engine damage that slows your ship such that they're eventually able to draw away from you and retreat altogether.

I have seen my own ship repair itself. I know it's more memorable when the enemy does it, but it does happen to your own ships too :)

1 hour ago, KiloZulu said:

I've encountered times where my guns will stop firing on a target, or only one turret will fire.  I've also seen them switch from a target I've specified.  In either case, the enemy suddenly gets "free" shots on me.  Similarly, multi-tube torpedo launchers will sometimes only fire from one tube rather than firing a full spread.  It will not launch the rest until it has finished a full reload cycle.

Such problems have been reported though it hasn't happened to me often enough to really bother me. Besides, there is a proposal out there for malfunctions to be part of the game. Just think that it is already a feature :)

The last one I admit I had not experienced. Of course, there is a chance that you will not hit with every salvo, and just because the chance is low does not mean you can't be hit, but I don't exactly see it being false and I am usually able to get fire superiority over the enemy. 

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6 hours ago, KiloZulu said:

The percentage to hit shown does not seem to reflect reality.  As an example, I might have five turrets with three guns each, that supposedly have a 20% chance to hit a target x km away.  It's very common to see multiple salvos miss the target, even though my ship should get three hits per salvo on average.  Conversely, I've come to accept that the enemy which only has a 3% chance to hit with its return fire will hit (repeatedly bypassing 24" of armor to cause flooding with its 9" guns in my most recent game.)

Other than the penetration and flooding nonsense introduced with latest build, this is not true.  The AI operates under the same mechanics as the player, and in fact if you want you can just turn the AI on for all your ships and watch what plays out.  These sorts of impressions arise from confirmation bias where the negative events you suffer are given much more prominence in recall than the negatives you inflict on the AI or the AI's own failures.

 

5 hours ago, arkhangelsk said:

Let me give a counterargument. First, setting the winning condition to be sinking the ship is at least clear cut and objective. Second, why should humans be judged the victor based solely on them getting an early advantage? The computer did the smart thing and withdrew at the right time and put you in a position you don't dare pursue or will lose your advantage if you try to chase him. Shouldn't that be called, uh, a draw?

No, assuming that your own ships are not as damaged, then it is at least a minor tactical victory.  All or nothing win conditions are bad and will drive us to adopting very artificial mechanics and AI behavior.

Edited by akd
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Just how winning a land combat is about control of the field and not wiping out the enemy outright, control of the sea is not about sinking every enemy ship.

That has to be built into how the game rewards victories or else commerce raiding or a fleet-in-being will not be rewarding and the player and AI will be forced to see decisive battle regardless of their national situation. 

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