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Regarding the figurehead of the "Redoutable", ex-"Suffren", this may well have been a full figure of "Suffren", in my opinion. Of course, the name of the ship was changed for political reasons in 1794

Duquesne (74 temeraire class) bow figure from the ship model at Toulon (Musée de la Marine) https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duquesne_(1787)?wprov=sfti1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French

in France there are two types of 74-gun Sane. large 74-gun and small 74-gun. Sané-Borda type (1782-1814) the large 74-gun (French feet): 172'; 44 '1/2; 22 ' mean draft: 21 ' gun (original): 1 de

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they were the class of 74's that got copied by other nations

same with some frigates if a designe is succesfull it gets copied nothing new.

 

but this doesnt mean that every 74 isa copie of the french there were still some independent experimental hull designes used by other nations

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The Temeraire-class feels like a must-have; more than the most numerous 74 or ship of the line built to a common design, it is the most numerous man-of-war ship altogether. The only designs more numerous are man-of-war brigs like Cruizer and Cherokee or gunboats - there simply isn't a better representative of warships from the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars.

 

The summary in the OP's link is light on for crew - Le Redoutable carried 700 by design and reportedly carried 690 into battle at Trafalgar.

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  • 2 years later...
9 hours ago, Heinzy Guders said:

I'd find it nice to add the Redoutable as a ship in the game because it would be nice to add another proper 3rd rate, and just because of the short but fairly spectacular history (specifically at Trafalgar)

She will be added just currently devs are working on UI,eco and localisation

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  • 1 year later...
9 minutes ago, admin said:

We only have the bow figure for the implacable - but it could be a british one. Maybe someone has info on Redoutable bow figure or any other figurines for the temeraire or advanced classes ?

Le Triomphant model from the Trianon collection (ordered by Napoleon) maybe?

Not sure if it is accurate or fantasy from the modelist:

 

http://mnm.webmuseo.com/ws/musee-national-marine/app/collection/record/9025

Edited by Serk
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6 hours ago, admin said:

We only have the bow figure for the implacable - but it could be a british one. Maybe someone has info on Redoutable bow figure or any other figurines for the temeraire or advanced classes ?

I don't have drawings or pictures. Have you look at Boudriot's 74-gun ship ?

1) If I ain't mistaken, most/lots of ships of the Téméraire class were built between 1782-1789, ie during the Monarchy and Louis XVI' neoclassic style. The lion bow figure sculpture (one sees on earlier L'Hermione and such) was replaced with decorative friezes and then symbols of the royal arms. 

2) During the French Revolution, one used allegorical figures related to the names of the ships, names that were related to the Revolution, such as The Revolutionary, The Human Rights, The Unity...

Example : La Poursuivante (1796)

5MczH2n.jpg

3) Then, during the First Empire (1804-1815), symbols of the Ancient Rome related to the power of Napoleon were used : eagle, crown of laurels...

Example : Le Triomphant (1809)

ASK5pVm.jpg

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17 hours ago, admin said:

We only have the bow figure for the implacable - but it could be a british one. Maybe someone has info on Redoutable bow figure or any other figurines for the temeraire or advanced classes ?

The Implacable figurehead has nothing to do with the original French figurehead, it's British throughout. Gérard Delacroix posted an extract from a French document - apparently contemporary and, possibly, some kind of instruction from the administration destined for the master sculptor responsible for the ship's decorations? - a few years ago here (entry of 29 Nov 2011, 17:01):

https://5500.forumactif.org/t610p125-le-duguay-trouin-de-1800-alias-hms-implacable

So, the original French figurehead was a full figure representing a c.1700 French "warrior" - commanding officer. Rough translation into English:

"... The figure will represent a warrior dressed in the French fashion at the time of Duguay-Trouin. He will wear a belt tied on the left side from which will hang a sword on the hilt of which he will rest his left hand. The right hand extended forward will indicate by its position the action of issuing an order." 

 

Edited by Wagram
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23 minutes ago, Wagram said:

So, the original French figurehead was a full figure representing a c.1700 French "warrior" - commanding officer. Rough translation into English:

"... The figure will represent a warrior dressed in the French fashion of  the time of Duguay-Trouin. He will wear a belt tied on the left side from which will hang a sword on the hilt of which he will rest his left hand. The right hand extended forward will indicate by its position the action of issuing an order." 

simply put : a (not realistic) representation of Duguay-Trouin, the French Corsair (with the left hand on the pommel of his sword and the right hand extended forward)  :

320px-Duguay-Trouin_Saint-Malo.jpg?usela

Guay-Trouin.jpg?uselang=fr

Duguay-trouin-2.jpg

(some representations of Duguay-Trouin)

Edited by LeBoiteux
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Regarding the figurehead of the "Redoutable", ex-"Suffren", this may well have been a full figure of "Suffren", in my opinion. Of course, the name of the ship was changed for political reasons in 1794 but, still, as an admiral, Suffren served as a role model for the successful French naval hero even during the Republic (and certainly during the Empire). And that was what the Revolutionary navy needed badly. Allegedly, the British had called Suffren - who had outmanoeuvred and defeated them on several occasions - "Admiral Satan". So, maybe, the "Suffren's" figurehead was left in place when it was rebaptized "Redoubtable", not as a representation of Suffren the man, but as a representation of the redoubtable, awe-inspiring "Satan"? As no official document representing or describing the figurehead of the "Suffren"/"Redoutable" appears to have emerged so far, two of the four views of the "Redoutable" in the heat of the action during the battle of Trafalgar by Louis-Philippe Crépin, dated 1806, at least indicate that its figurehead actually was a full human figure. Too bad that it is not possible to clearly recognize whether or not it represented Suffren.

https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/Lot/louis-philippe-crepin-paris-1772-1851-four-views-of-5835082-details.aspx

There is, however, one point that would rather exclude that the figurehead of the "Redoutable" represented admiral Suffren in 1805. In 1803, another 74-gun ship was launched and baptized "Suffren". Logically, the new ship's figurehead should have been provided with a figurehead representing Suffren. As a matter of fact, there is a contemporary watercolour showing this second "Suffren", and its figurehead appears to represent (sort of) admiral Suffren. "Redoutable" was refitted for the last time in 1801-1802. If the figurehead of the first "Suffren" had been kept until this date, it would probably have been replaced - or altered - on this occasion at the latest? 

Edited by Wagram
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On 10/21/2019 at 2:47 AM, admin said:

We only have the bow figure for the implacable - but it could be a british one. Maybe someone has info on Redoutable bow figure or any other figurines for the temeraire or advanced classes ?

Duquesne (74 temeraire class) bow figure from the ship model at Toulon (Musée de la Marine)

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duquesne_(1787)?wprov=sfti1

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Duquesne_(1787)?wprov=sfti1

 

 

 

Edited by Citoyen 🇲🇶
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16 minutes ago, Citoyen J said:

Duquesne (74 temeraire class) bow figure from the ship model at Toulon (Musée de la Marine)

Do you now when this ship model was made ? 

____________________

From the collection of the Naval Museum of Toulon, sculptures of Tourville,  Duguay-Trouin, Jean Bart and Duquesne :

ob_aac698_img-9856.jpg

Also, Bellone (c. 1815) :

ob_f86c32_img-9865.jpg

And more : here.

Edited by LeBoiteux
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On 10/22/2019 at 2:55 PM, LeBoiteux said:

Do you now when this ship model was made ? 

the model would be dated 1788 (modified later for some details).  the bow figure must be the original one and conform to that of the ship since this vessel has not changed its name since its construction under the monarchy until its capture in 1803 (consulate).

 

 

 

Edited by Citoyen 🇲🇶
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In the French navy, simple busts were not used as figureheads for ships-of-the line until after the Napoleonic era. So yes, a Restauration era piece at the earliest. As there existed no ship-of-the-line named "Duquesne" under the Restauration, the bust probably was just an isolated product of workmanship, perhaps a study, perhaps intended for a projected but never realized "Duquesne". Under the Empire, there was a training vessel rebaptized "Duquesne" in 1811, the former Russian ship-of-the-line "Moskva" (74, 1799, Arkhangelsk), sold to France in 1809 at Toulon. According to a watercolour by André (or Andrea) Moretti, dated 1812, her figurehead was a full figure (representing either a human or an eagle, I'm not sure), and not a bust.

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^ Indeed and that's why those sculptures of Tourville,  Duguay-Trouin, Jean Bart, Duquesne (...) from the Naval Museum are an invaluable source about the production of the French figureheads of the period, especially ' for the Téméraire or advanced classes ' (which was Admin's initial question). For now, with the info in this thread including the ship model, figureheads of, at least, Le Duquesne and Le Duguay-Trouin can be modeled with some details in the game... ie, what was or what could have been their figureheads, according to what we know. 🙂

Edited by LeBoiteux
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For the sake of completeness, I would like to draw everybody's attention to Clarkson Stanfield's painting of the battle of Trafalgar. The figurehead of the Redoutable is a full figure. Could be a cloaked Greek or Roman warrior with cuirass and crested helmet, but I'm not sure. Also, the painting is not contemporary (dated 1836) and I don't know whether Stanfield is reliable in this respect.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/The_Battle_of_Trafalgar_by_William_Clarkson_Stanfield.jpg

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1 hour ago, Wagram said:

For the sake of completeness, I would like to draw everybody's attention to Clarkson Stanfield's painting of the battle of Trafalgar. The figurehead of the Redoutable is a full figure. Could be a cloaked Greek or Roman warrior with cuirass and crested helmet, but I'm not sure. Also, the painting is not contemporary (dated 1836) and I don't know whether Stanfield is reliable in this respect.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/The_Battle_of_Trafalgar_by_William_Clarkson_Stanfield.jpg

A Greek/Roman warrior as an allegorical figure of what is "redoubtable" (ie the name of the ship) would be a logical choice for a figurehead made during the French Revolution at the time of the name change (1794). 

Edited by LeBoiteux
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  • 2 weeks later...

As mentioned by someone in your second link ("here"), the figurehead of the Superbe was virtually the same as that of Le Commerce de Marseille:

commerce-de-marseille-2.jpg

What happened to this type of figurehead after the abolition of the monarchy in 1792 can be seen on this British print:

Vaisseau_fran%C3%A7ais_le_Commerce_de_Ma

The crown was replaced by a Phrygian cap and the lilies were carved away and, apparently, painted over with a tricolour.

The same seems to have happened to other blazons related to the Ancien Régime. E.g., Les États de Bourgogne whose escutcheon - according to a 1790 print - may have shown the arms of Burgundy or the Royal lilies (I'm not quite sure about what I see) received a tricolour escutcheon too when it became La Montagne, if we are to believe De Loutherbourgs 1795 painting of the battle of 1st June 1794:

https://www.gettyimages.at/detail/illustration/glorious-first-of-june-or-third-battle-of-ushant-between-grafiken/153414662

Interestingly, the Loutherbourg's 1794 sketch of La Montagne has a distorted figurehead which shows an indistinct cloaked and helmeted warrior figure, probably meant to hold an escutcheon as well:

Philip_James_de_Loutherbourg_-_La_Montag

Actually, the painting appears to have it right as it shows the same arrangement as the 1790 French print: there, the escutcheon is held by two angels (or so), though it is still topped by a crown, which was later replaced by a helmet, according to De Loutherbourg.

As for the Redoutable figurehead. There is another French representation of the mid-19th century in the National Maritime Museum which again shows some indistinct Romano-Greek warrior. As it is a non-contemporary picture nothing can be said about its reliability:

https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/138980.html

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