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FenrirSombrer

Constitution and her rating

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Posted (edited)

I will start this off by saying that I don't claim to know everything, as such I will do my best to include as many references as possible.

1414432147476.jpg

The depth that Naval action allows players to field is phenomenal, and it encourages experimentation with ships/builds/playstyles and the like.

One thing I would love to see is a more accurate implementation of some of the ships.
This time I'm going to focus on the USS Constitution.

Put Simply, the USS Constitution belongs in a 4th Rate slot, as opposed to a 3rd rate position.

During the time of her service (and for a while before) Ships were given rating based on their guns.

Rating systems Tend to reflect the same general Numbers
https://www.historicnavalfiction.com/general-hnf-info/naval-facts/the-rating-system
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rating_system_of_the_Royal_Navy

Type Rate Guns Gun decks

Ship of the line

1st Rate 100 to 120 3
2nd Rate 90 to 98 3
3rd Rate 64 to 80 2
4th Rate 48 to 60 2

Frigate

5th Rate 32 to 44 1
6th Rate 20 to 28 1

Sloop-of-war

Unrated 16 to 18 1

Gun-brig or Cutter

6 to 14 1

Frigates of 4th rate have between 48 (or 50 depending on the rating system) and 60 Guns, with 2 gun decks.
This matches the current iteration of the Constitution in game perfectly. 
Using in game deck terminology
Her Lower Deck has 30 guns, her Middle Deck has 24 and she has 6 Chasers. This comes out to 60 Guns, fitting within the 4th rate designation.

However. This is only based on her in game operational stats, and if you were to go based off of her 'rating' it could have been based on what she was designed with, as most ships had extra guns put on them after commission, outside of their 'rating' 

Below is an Excerpt from the Naval History and Heritage command, military website. > https://www.history.navy.mil/browse-by-topic/ships/ships-of-sail/uss-constitution-americas-ship-of-state/history.html
"The 44-gun USS CONSTITUTION, built in Boston, was launched on Oct. 21, 1797."

Below is an Excerpt from the Wikipedia page. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Constitution
"Constitution was rated as a 44-gun frigate, but she often carried more than 50 guns at a time."

Both cases show that she was a 44 gun Rated Ship, having two gun decks. This would put her into the low 4th rate territory/5th rate plus a gun deck.
Obviously the Constitution (as well as most ships of the era) regularly carried a larger number of guns than 'rated'. 


1513265757001.png



Now the long boring part:
While 5th rate would be damaging to the position of other 5th rates within the game, 4th rate would be a good fit, and in my opinion more accurate. Some 5th rate ships are still capable against the Constitution (Such as the Endymion, which historically fought against the USS President.) But most would struggle to fight her, and such was historical with the HMS Guerriere (rated at 38 guns, but carrying 49 at the time), and the HMS Java (rated at 38 guns). She was, historically, a 4th rate built around hunting 5th rates.

 

1414433969595.jpg


All of this blathering comes together in the end for me to say this.

The USS Constitution (and the United states by proxy) Belongs in the 4th Rate position, not the 3rd rate as she currently is.

Please Participate in the Poll Below to share your thoughts. What rate should the USS Constitution, and the USS United States be in?
https://www.opinionstage.com/fenrirfurrien/uss-constitution-rating

Thank you for your time.

Images sourced from https://www.history.navy.mil/browse-by-topic/ships/ships-of-sail/uss-constitution-americas-ship-of-state/history.html

Edited by FenrirSombrer
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Its a hard decision as its very hard to go away from the canon of the british rating system (abandoned in the early 19th)
Constitution is stronger than any frigate and its build strength make this ship rival 3rd rates. 
On the other hand its not a third rate.

 

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1 minute ago, admin said:

Its a hard decision as its very hard to go away from the canon of the british rating system (abandoned in the early 19th)
Constitution is stronger than any frigate and its build strength make this ship rival 3rd rates. 
On the other hand its not a third rate.

 

The Napoleonic era Ship rating that I quoted lasted until after the war of 1812 (lasted until about 1815 I believe).
The constitution is only able to Rival 3rd rates due to her speed, and is outgunned by every (to my knowledge) 3rd rate aside from her sister the USS United States. That said there are many 4th rates that have a heavier broadside than her as well, I believe only the Indefatigable has a smaller broadside than her in the 4th rates.

 

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, admin said:

Its a hard decision as its very hard to go away from the canon of the british rating system (abandoned in the early 19th)
Constitution is stronger than any frigate and its build strength make this ship rival 3rd rates. 
On the other hand its not a third rate.

 

you can call it "rank" 3 ship not a "rate" ship, but then you maybe you should redo the modules so they fit the "Ship of the Line" segment and "Frigate" segment. and you dont get it as a frigate kill in the weekly frigate even ALLTHOUGH its the USS Constitution thats pictured on the 4th-5th rate one.

Thats where the problem is and ruins alot of the immersion you wish to create, and what grinds most peoples gears about the topic

But i've seen this before, you should go away from the "Rank" tag and call the for "Ship of the line" "Heavy Frigate" "Frigate" "Light Frigate" "Schooner" "Brig" "Sloop" etc

Edited by erelkivtuadrater

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13 minutes ago, erelkivtuadrater said:

you can call it "rank" 3 ship not a "rate" ship, but then you maybe you should redo the modules so they fit the "Ship of the Line" segment and "Frigate" segment. and you dont get it as a frigate kill in the weekly frigate even ALLTHOUGH its the USS Constitution thats pictured on the 4th-5th rate one.

Thats where the problem is and ruins alot of the immersion you wish to create, and what grinds most peoples gears about the topic

But i've seen this before, you should go away from the "Rank" tag and call the for "Ship of the line" "Heavy Frigate" "Frigate" "Light Frigate" "Schooner" "Brig" "Sloop" etc

You are so wrong it's laughable.

It's Rate not Rank.

The Rate system is a whole lot simpler than what you just suggested, the variation within what you called Brig, Sloop etc that are currently 7th Rates would make your head swim.

USS Constitution and her sisters were super or heavy Frigates they were not built to be line ships and never took on a 3rd rate the only one that came in sight of a third rate ran and was crippled by HMS Endymion, to counter these ships the Admiralty planned to build more Endymion frigates and more heavily gunned super Frigates but as the war of 1812-15 was won they were never needed.

For the purposes of NA Rating USS Constitution and her sisters is very difficult because of her uniqueness but in my opinion she should be better placed at 4th.

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Another small addition that I forgot to mention in the OP.

Mechanically speaking the only *real* effect this will have in game, is the missions stating '4th rate or lower' will now let you use the constitution, and the USS united States.

I feel that this won't stop people playing the Constitution in the way that she's currently played, or cause the Constitution's position in the game to change drastically (or even that noticably).

Having her in the 4th rate slot is simply more historical accurate, and more accurate of her current play style, as that of a heavy frigate. (Sink what you can, run from what you cant)

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The problem with the Constitution as I see it is that it's not a 4th or a 3rd rate. It's in between but slightly closer to 3rd rates while it's clearly not a 3rd rate. It's hull strength is even higher than that of a Wasa and about 50% higher than most 4th rates; while also being as fast as the fastest 4th rate. It's too good to be a 4th rate, it just doesn't fit in anywhere. But when it's equipped with Carronades, it's broadside power is really not that far off from a Wasa, in terms of numbers at least.

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The main Reason for the debate is as I just previously mentioned. Mechanically speaking Putting her in 4th Rate will have no effect on actual gameplay. It's simply a numerical representation. You keep the Battle rating the same, just Change her Rate to more accurately represent her.
It has nothing to do with he ability to fight different rates.

A Pirate Frigate can Fight and Sink a 1st rate, however that doesnt make the Pirate Frigate a 1st rate.

Simply Put the Connie is a Heavy Frigate, 4th rate. Not a Ship of the Line 3rd rate.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Custard said:

You are so wrong it's laughable.

It's Rate not Rank.

The Rate system is a whole lot simpler than what you just suggested, the variation within what you called Brig, Sloop etc that are currently 7th Rates would make your head swim.

USS Constitution and her sisters were super or heavy Frigates they were not built to be line ships and never took on a 3rd rate the only one that came in sight of a third rate ran and was crippled by HMS Endymion, to counter these ships the Admiralty planned to build more Endymion frigates and more heavily gunned super Frigates but as the war of 1812-15 was won they were never needed.

For the purposes of NA Rating USS Constitution and her sisters is very difficult because of her uniqueness but in my opinion she should be better placed at 4th.

I KNOW! Im not disagreeing with anything you say, but they have used 2 words on it ingame. If you hover over your ship in port it says "Rank X" ship, ofc i know it might aswell say Rate, i also agree that it should be downranked so it gest the 4th-5th rate buffs.

All the problems with this is because we have mixed ships from such a long timeline. We have the oldest lineship Ingermanland from 1715, then we have heavy frigates like the trincomalee that launched in !1817! over 100 years in difference. Thats why they are struggling to place the ships and balance correctly, because alot changed in building designs of the ships during that time aswell as armament. But the rating system in the RN never changed, it just got new descriptions all the time. Hence why we have the carronade meta because the carronades we have ingame was invented in the 1770's (https://www.rmg.co.uk/discover/explore/what-was-carronade)

"Pepys's original classification was updated by further definitions in 1714, 1721, 1760, 1782, 1801 and 1817 (the last being the most severe, as it provided for including in the count of guns the carronades that had previously been excluded)."

 

I think they could MUCH easier for the devs to justify the stats on the USS frigates and the older lineships if they didnt go by rate, but by what type of ship it actually is. I also believe they should even reduce the lineships sailing profiles upwind while also increasing the HP, because as you say and i've said in earlier posts that they were made for line of battle, but not the Constitution (it has ~4k more hp then Agamemnon, AN ACTUAL LINESHIP that fought in the Napoleonic War) and I think it should keep the thickness because thats what she was famous for.

 

But do you honestly believe that this would be so hard to understand? //ofcourse more detailed description if people wonder

  • A schooner is a fore aft ship with 2 or more masts.
  • A Brig is just a square rigged ship with 2 masts.

All these descriptions are expected to be found somewhere, the tutorial in the game or the tips or whatever even the community wiki page would be perfect places to find them.

 

Cons:

  • My only concern would be to classify each ship again for the devs (development time and programming concerning upgrades, books etc).

Pros:

  • Would be much easier later on to justify the stats on a ship, and place it properly.
  • Creates less confusion of what is a 4th rate ingame vs 3rd rate ingame when one ship is remembered to crush frigates vs fighting big battles.
  • Much better immersion imo

 

Its just an example since not all ships are added.

image.png.771063be27d6ebb717670141a3ec2241.png

 

Edited by erelkivtuadrater
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4 hours ago, FenrirSombrer said:

The main Reason for the debate is as I just previously mentioned. Mechanically speaking Putting her in 4th Rate will have no effect on actual gameplay. It's simply a numerical representation. You keep the Battle rating the same, just Change her Rate to more accurately represent her.
It has nothing to do with he ability to fight different rates.

A Pirate Frigate can Fight and Sink a 1st rate, however that doesnt make the Pirate Frigate a 1st rate.

Simply Put the Connie is a Heavy Frigate, 4th rate. Not a Ship of the Line 3rd rate.

Well it was changed exactly because she is better represented in-game as a 3rd rate. As you said it's not neither a 3rd or 4th, historically speaking. 

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6 hours ago, Intrepido said:

Frigates are 5th rates. Endymion, a heavy frigate, is a 5th rate.

Currently, Constitution is listed as 3rd rate.

So dont see the issue with lowering it to a 4th rate class while keeping its BR (to reflect its historical performance and built).

I'm with it going back to being a 4th rate along with others.  Ships should be balance by there BR not the rate you can put them in.  Keep it's stats but bring it down to 4th rate and allow it to use 5-4th rate mods.   Just give it a 3rd rate like BR.  This should of been done with the Indifatable as it was actually a 5th rate.  We can do the same with the other 4th rates.  You removed half the 4th rates when you moved the two ship to 3rd rate and the 4th/5th rates where the working horse of navies back than.  I use to love the Connie but haven't sailed on in ages cause it lost all it's good stats (speed and turn rate) than got moved to 3rd.  Try to give the USS US a chance after the wipe cause I can't seem to get any permits from chest for the life of me (have to buy Reno permits as it's my second fav ship).  I just couldn't stand the USS US....why would I use it when I can just use a Wasa instead?

 

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32 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

I'm with it going back to being a 4th rate along with others.  Ships should be balance by there BR not the rate you can put them in.  Keep it's stats but bring it down to 4th rate and allow it to use 5-4th rate mods.   Just give it a 3rd rate like BR.  This should of been done with the Indifatable as it was actually a 5th rate.  We can do the same with the other 4th rates.  You removed half the 4th rates when you moved the two ship to 3rd rate and the 4th/5th rates where the working horse of navies back than.  I use to love the Connie but haven't sailed on in ages cause it lost all it's good stats (speed and turn rate) than got moved to 3rd.  Try to give the USS US a chance after the wipe cause I can't seem to get any permits from chest for the life of me (have to buy Reno permits as it's my second fav ship).  I just couldn't stand the USS US....why would I use it when I can just use a Wasa instead?

 

You might choose a USS over a Wasa because it's 1 knot faster at basically all angles of sail. For Indefatigable to be a 5th rate again I think it would require a nerf, for it carry 32lb carronades max instead of 42lb. Because currently Indefatigable is on par with 4th rates in all areas. I would argue that for a ship to use cheaper upgrades and cheaper books it cannot be on par with higher rated ships. 

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Posted (edited)

The switch to 3rd was marvelous move for only one reason. So many people thought the ship is an actual 3rd rate and went and fought the big boys with it. They all got capped because they have less crew than a rattsvan! Or simply got destroyed. This increased the rarity and keeps them rare. Somebody mentioned that the only logical in game context reason for them to be moved back to 4th is because of mission requirements as they are now excluded from a lot of things. I think this is a reasonable justification. Perhaps as more 3rd rates come in down the line, they will take them back to 4th

The cons/uss can be put into rate 1 but it will still essentially be good for one thing, and that is a 14.5+kn build to bully the other frigates, especially in groups. Therefore getting hung up what rate it is classified as is immaterial. Unless the stats change, it is just a play of words and it will not affect its gameplay. In reality, a good player in a good trinc can outplay it without much difficulty. The const has a very cowardly playstyle, despite her real life history, it demands very cautious in game play. Speaking of real life , it is dear to many people as it is still part of an actual navy and one can go touch it in boston. For that alone it will always be a desired item even if it is not able to compete with wasas bellonas and what not. Not to mention, it just looks totally amazing. I am perfectly ok with it not being able to take on wasas. Sometimes you just want a ship because it is pretty. And frigates are pretty! Ships of the line, not really. They look like barns with cannons

Edited by BoatyMcBoatFace

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The one other aspect of the move from 4th to 3rd rate was that it then placed the Constitution as a ship that was unable to defeat any other ship of its rate. With a damage output of only 2823 it is nearly half of any other 3rd rate ship. The next lowest is the 3rd rate with a damage output of 4169. In any battle (not counting skill of their perspective captains) it would be nearly impossible for the Constitution to defeat the 3rd rate. While some may argue that with certain upgrades and captain skill the Constitution would win, those factors can be applied equally to either ship and for this reason they are not considered in the comparison. 

The Constitution was originally in the game as a 4th rate and fit into that category quite nicely. The Constitution required more skill than other 4th rates to be truly effective. This is what balanced it verses other 4th rates. Once it was moved to being a 3rd rate it seemed that very few people would waste time on it due to one it requiring a hard to find permit and second that since it is the weakest 3rd rate it makes it difficult to train up unless you go after 4th rate targets and deal with them being more maneuverable.

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Important thing is we need an accurate BR, rate classifications mean not much. This is not world of tanks. 

So I do not care if consti is 4th rate or a 5th rate... 

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, AeRoTR said:

Important thing is we need an accurate BR, rate classifications mean not much. This is not world of tanks. 

So I do not care if consti is 4th rate or a 5th rate... 

so i can assume you also dont care if a lynx is classified as 2nd rate aswell then?

Immersive gameplay btw

Edited by erelkivtuadrater

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it's not like I know anything about the real ships but the ingame consti is pretty weak if you compare it to 3rd rate or bellona

 

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

I might be wrong but constitution was also placed there to artificially buff the number of third rates in the game. 

If u look closely, the third rate is just a poorer model of the bellona, way behind the quality of the latest NA models. 

With the introduction of the new third rates (redoutable, implacable and admiral de ruyter) constitution can be listed as 4th rate.

Speaking of new third rates, where is the montañes @admin ?

think its more about upgrades and knowledge books, that it get so much better upgrades with the 4th/5th ones then the 1st-3rd ones, while the stats on the ship was already FAR  better then any 4th rate

Edited by erelkivtuadrater

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13 hours ago, Never said:

You might choose a USS over a Wasa because it's 1 knot faster at basically all angles of sail. For Indefatigable to be a 5th rate again I think it would require a nerf, for it carry 32lb carronades max instead of 42lb. Because currently Indefatigable is on par with 4th rates in all areas. I would argue that for a ship to use cheaper upgrades and cheaper books it cannot be on par with higher rated ships. 

That speed doesn't mean crap when you get your sails hit by those 6 chasers.  Than if your speed crafted your prob not tanky at all so all those extra guns on the USS US not going to match up in a brawl with the Wasa and lets not even talk about the shitty turn rate and acceleration of the USS US vs the Wasa.   Than your way under crew if it ends up in a boarding.  All you really have is speed.  I mean maybe if you make it a fail fit speed boat and your solo playing, but other wise that speed isn't going to help you in a straight up fight if it comes to brawling.  That is it's only good stat compared to other 3rds.   As a 4th it had speed and turn rate over the other 4th's and was still under gun.   So it was more equally balanced having the highest HP's and thickness.  

As for the Fati, you balance it by BR not changing it's stats.  Yes it's a 5th rate, but give it a high BR that is in the same area it's at now, but now that I look at the list of 5th rates it's prob best to just keep it in the 4th rate classes as the starting entry into the 4th rates.   

6 hours ago, erelkivtuadrater said:

think its more about upgrades and knowledge books, that it get so much better upgrades with the 4th/5th ones then the 1st-3rd ones, while the stats on the ship was already FAR  better then any 4th rate

Other than it's speed, HP's and thickness it really doesn't have better stats than most of the 4th rates.  Most of them still have more guns than it has.  I wouldn't even say the thickness cause it has only like 1-2 more then 4th rates.  It's only good stats is speed and HP's.  Every thing else is beaten by other 4th rates.  Which made the ship more balanced in the 4th rates as the fast chaser 4th rate.  Maybe if they gave it back it's turn rate, but you know what I do when I see all carros on a ship. I keep my distance and just use my longs and mediums so that doesn't even help it and with it's shitty turn rate you can easily deflect the carros by staying over 250m's from it in combat.

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I'm a big connie fan. I would agree that she should be a 4th rate. She wont stack against any 3rd rate and can be matched by a 4th with a decent captain. Great ship just not a line ship.

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Easiest way would be to keep the 5th rank for 12 - 18 pound cannon and elevate the above.

24 pdr to 4th rates.

32 pdr to 3rd rates.

( in truth the 4th and 2nd rates were dropped, they just kept the designation because of many 4th and 2nd rates still in service but no new ones were built )

There is always a "strongest" model in all ranks in game. There's a strongest 6th rate. There's a strongest 1st rate. etc. There's no issues with a strongest 4th rate IMO.

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Connie was good as a 4th rate. She is terribly useless as a 3rd rate. She was never built as a line ship, but as a heavy frigate, to outrun anything that outguns her, but outgun anything that outruns her. There was a gap between the frigates and the line ships in terms of speed and gun power that she filled very well. This was the reason for her success. British reacted to this new "super frigate" with line ships converted into 4th rate frigates (razee, e.g. Indefatigable) and building new Endymion class ships, which were the only 24pd frigate they had at that time. 

Connie should be a 4th rate, HP need to be nerfed to be on par with other 4th rates. Then she could shine in the frigate patrol zone and in PVP again. 

BTW, also Endymion was later re-classified as a fourth rate. 

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On 1/3/2020 at 7:22 PM, erelkivtuadrater said:

I KNOW! Im not disagreeing with anything you say, but they have used 2 words on it ingame. If you hover over your ship in port it says "Rank X" ship, ofc i know it might aswell say Rate, i also agree that it should be downranked so it gest the 4th-5th rate buffs.

All the problems with this is because we have mixed ships from such a long timeline. We have the oldest lineship Ingermanland from 1715, then we have heavy frigates like the trincomalee that launched in !1817! over 100 years in difference. Thats why they are struggling to place the ships and balance correctly, because alot changed in building designs of the ships during that time aswell as armament. But the rating system in the RN never changed, it just got new descriptions all the time. Hence why we have the carronade meta because the carronades we have ingame was invented in the 1770's (https://www.rmg.co.uk/discover/explore/what-was-carronade)

"Pepys's original classification was updated by further definitions in 1714, 1721, 1760, 1782, 1801 and 1817 (the last being the most severe, as it provided for including in the count of guns the carronades that had previously been excluded)."

 

I think they could MUCH easier for the devs to justify the stats on the USS frigates and the older lineships if they didnt go by rate, but by what type of ship it actually is. I also believe they should even reduce the lineships sailing profiles upwind while also increasing the HP, because as you say and i've said in earlier posts that they were made for line of battle, but not the Constitution (it has ~4k more hp then Agamemnon, AN ACTUAL LINESHIP that fought in the Napoleonic War) and I think it should keep the thickness because thats what she was famous for.

 

But do you honestly believe that this would be so hard to understand? //ofcourse more detailed description if people wonder

  • A schooner is a fore aft ship with 2 or more masts.
  • A Brig is just a square rigged ship with 2 masts.

All these descriptions are expected to be found somewhere, the tutorial in the game or the tips or whatever even the community wiki page would be perfect places to find them.

 

Cons:

  • My only concern would be to classify each ship again for the devs (development time and programming concerning upgrades, books etc).

Pros:

  • Would be much easier later on to justify the stats on a ship, and place it properly.
  • Creates less confusion of what is a 4th rate ingame vs 3rd rate ingame when one ship is remembered to crush frigates vs fighting big battles.
  • Much better immersion imo

 

Its just an example since not all ships are added.

image.png.771063be27d6ebb717670141a3ec2241.png

 

Even here beloved Cherubim/Frigate is forgotten

 

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On 1/4/2020 at 5:31 AM, Raekur said:

The one other aspect of the move from 4th to 3rd rate was that it then placed the Constitution as a ship that was unable to defeat any other ship of its rate. With a damage output of only 2823 it is nearly half of any other 3rd rate ship. The next lowest is the 3rd rate with a damage output of 4169. In any battle (not counting skill of their perspective captains) it would be nearly impossible for the Constitution to defeat the 3rd rate. While some may argue that with certain upgrades and captain skill the Constitution would win, those factors can be applied equally to either ship and for this reason they are not considered in the comparison. 

The Constitution was originally in the game as a 4th rate and fit into that category quite nicely. The Constitution required more skill than other 4th rates to be truly effective. This is what balanced it verses other 4th rates. Once it was moved to being a 3rd rate it seemed that very few people would waste time on it due to one it requiring a hard to find permit and second that since it is the weakest 3rd rate it makes it difficult to train up unless you go after 4th rate targets and deal with them being more maneuverable.

 

On 1/7/2020 at 8:56 AM, van Veen said:

Connie was good as a 4th rate. She is terribly useless as a 3rd rate. She was never built as a line ship, but as a heavy frigate, to outrun anything that outguns her, but outgun anything that outruns her. There was a gap between the frigates and the line ships in terms of speed and gun power that she filled very well. This was the reason for her success. British reacted to this new "super frigate" with line ships converted into 4th rate frigates (razee, e.g. Indefatigable) and building new Endymion class ships, which were the only 24pd frigate they had at that time. 

Connie should be a 4th rate, HP need to be nerfed to be on par with other 4th rates. Then she could shine in the frigate patrol zone and in PVP again. 

BTW, also Endymion was later re-classified as a fourth rate. 

This ^^. Here are your answers. Not sure if the OP was aware that the Connie was originally in game as a 4th rate. Technically IRL a heavy frigate or 5th rate as built. Lots of unintended consequences by the changing to 3rd rate in game. 

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