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2 minutes ago, Never said:

I've seen ships explode with no fireshock, sadly no evidence to show. 

Probably fire right next to magazine. 

@admin are we supposed to use the buckets as helmets so the crew of 600 doesent all die from an explosion far away? I cant see how the bucket situation would help, because now if you get a fire on your ship its like you want to keep hold of it until you can explode on the enemy fleet 😛

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2 minutes ago, erelkivtuadrater said:

Probably fire right next to magazine. 

@admin are we supposed to use the buckets as helmets so the crew of 600 doesent all die from an explosion far away? I cant see how the bucket situation would help, because now if you get a fire on your ship its like you want to keep hold of it until you can explode on the enemy fleet 😛

your crew wont die on brace.
Fire next to magazine no longer explodes it. Fire will first spread around unilt fire shock appears, and will explode the magazine 15 seconds after

We are very worried about wind shadow though now. 
We cant imagine complaints from experienced captains where the whole fleets would get stuck and destroyed because fleet commanders could not manage wind shadow discipline, during tacks

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4 minutes ago, admin said:

In terms of Fireships - we are adding the heavy crew penalties to fire ships so they can be easily identified  (sunday or next week)
Normal ships still carry a lot of gunpowder and exploding will damage your fleet if burned and shot at.
Fire safety discipline though is the responsibility of the whole fleet and fleet commanders. Buckets save lives. 


Speeding up explosions by shooting at target was invented by British by the way, multiple sources say about shooting into ships on fire to spread it. This was implemented after several references were found on this mechanic.

Yes knowing which is a fireship would be helpful I guess, problem with that logic is it doesn’t have to be a fireship just a ship that is on fire.

Also shooting a ship on fire makes sense to increase the spread of the fire and cause more chaos making it more likely to explode,but I ‘m referring to the amount of damage caused and the range the explosion reaches I still think it’s above the sweet spot.

i guess we will see if more PBs as an example are decided by this strategy.

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2 minutes ago, Tac said:

Yes knowing which is a fireship would be helpful I guess, problem with that logic is it doesn’t have to be a fireship just a ship that is on fire.

Also shooting a ship on fire makes sense to increase the spread of the fire and cause more chaos making it more likely to explode,but I ‘m referring to the amount of damage caused and the range the explosion reaches I still think it’s above the sweet spot.

i guess we will see if more PBs as an example are decided by this strategy.

Buckets will make impossible to explode the standard non-fire ship. The crew damage was drastically reduced in last patch and brace effectiveness was almost doubled. Perhaps shockwave distance should be reduced a bit.

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Fireships:

First of all, let's separate between fireships and exploding ships. 

1 month-2 months ago, explosions were mostly alright. A good explosion could do serious damage, enough to cripple a fleet if quickly seized upon, but in a moving fight they were hard to pull off. There were some issues, that were F11'd many times. Ships would frequently explode without warning. Fireshocks were supposed to be the warning, but more often than not, ships would explode directly from just being on fire. Sometimes, ships would even explode directly, without even catching on fire first. This happened to me once in San Juan.

One could argue about the frequency of this occurring (it was way too often), but it's somewhat historical - if not the best gameplay - to get randomly blown up without warning from a stray cannonball igniting the magazine. 

Since the changes to explosions the situation is completely different. A "fireship" (exploding ship) doesn't have to be particularly accurate. It can blow up far from the enemy fleet and still devastate it. With the "great" combination of captured NPC 1st rates it is a tactic without risk or cost whatsoever. And it has no counter. "The only winning move is not to play".

I am no expert, and I don't have access to the historical records directly, but I know enough that 1st rates were never used as fireships. Moreover, gunpowder was an expensive resource and even if they could have packed every deck of a 1st rate with gunpowder, we would not see the kind of nuclear explosions we now see in-game.

One of the most spectacular historical 1st rate explosions in history was the destruction of Orient

Wikipedia says about this explosion:

 

Quote

The concussion of the blast was powerful enough to rip open the seams of the nearest ships

Falling wreckage started fires on Swiftsure, Alexander, and Franklin, although in each case teams of sailors with water buckets succeeded in extinguishing the flames,

Hundreds of men dove into the sea to escape the flames, but fewer than 100 survived the blast.

For ten minutes after the explosion there was no firing; sailors from both sides were either too shocked by the blast or desperately extinguishing fires aboard their own ships to continue the fight.

There is:

Nearby ships took hull damage (ripped seams) - but not to the point of sinking.

No mention of crew killed on other ships from the blast - after all they are well covered by the solid hulls of their own ships.

No mention of masts falling on other ships - presumably sails were ripped.

Other ships caught fire from falling debris.

Other ships got "crew shocked" by the blast.

If we want to model explosions in-game on this, here's how I propose:

Crew shock to all ships in the battle after an explosion, but longer crew-shock to ships within short distance from the blast. I.e 15 seconds for all ships and 2-3 minute crew shock for ships within say 500 meters.

Crew loss only on ships immediately near. I.e up to 500 crew lost on ships that are literally touching the exploding ship. No crew loss on ships more than 100 meters away from the explosion.

Fires, fires everywhere. All ships within say 500 meters should catch up to multiple fires, simulating falling debris. Fires that have to be fought, and could be dangerous, but which especially a ship in brace should be well prepared to handle. Fires spreading should be the real danger from any exploding ship - or any fireship really.

Masts should fall (if at all) only on ships in immediate vicinity to the blast. And then no more than middle sections. Only on ships within 250 meters max. And if you want to make it somewhat realistic, only ships with their sails fully raised, not depowered, and perpendicular to the direction of the blast should be susceptible to loose mast sections. Otherwise the force of the explosion would not catch the sails. 

Sail damage, as in ripped sails, on ships close to the blast. Sail damage should be up to 50% on the closest ships, and reach no more than 400 meters away. Sail damage should however be increased again for ships on fire. This goes especially for the fireships themselves, but also for ships catching fire from falling debris after an explosion.

Hull damage to show how ships seams were ripped. Maybe manifesting as structure damage or som 20-30% damage to hulls, depending on proximity and angle.

----------------------

As a whole, fireships themselves and fireship fittings should be changed to focus more on fires and less on explosions. They are after all named fireships, not explosive ships.

The real danger of a fireship, should be spreading fires to other, adjacent ships. Explosions should be rarer, more chancy, and significantly less potent. 

There should be no fireship fittings above 5th rates. Possibly 4th rates. It is just not historical. 

And the purpose of a fireship should be to drive close to enemy ships and spread multiple, significant fires, to their hull and sails alike. Fires that would be crippling, do sail damage and take up big numbers of crew in firefighting, leaving the ships vulnerable. 

fireship should have an increased radius at which fires spread, so that it would not need to completely touch/hug an enemy (or friendly) ship to spread fire to it, but the more it hugged a ship, the more severely the fire would spread to the next ship.

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53FDA700863ED2990DFB8F3FFDA05E4E84A84F97

 

Here is an example from today of the extreme nature of fireship damage.  100% of the crew killed, yet in this case very little sail and mast damage.  When so many players (some of both sides) are instantly eliminated from battles, it doesn't help the game.   While it may technically be possible to kill 100% of the crew on a ship, you would expect some crew members to survive - and the ship to sustain much more physical damage.

This mechanic needs to be revised and moderated immediately if you want players to continue playing.

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Basically the game is currently unplayable in large form battles.  Opposing side just has to use some captured 1st rates to neutralize a fleet with little to no risk.  Attacking side assumes all of the risk with PB quality ships.

Edited by Mouth of Sauron

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43 minutes ago, Anolytic said:

Fireships:

First of all, let's separate between fireships and exploding ships. 

1 month-2 months ago, explosions were mostly alright. A good explosion could do serious damage, enough to cripple a fleet if quickly seized upon, but in a moving fight they were hard to pull off. There were some issues, that were F11'd many times. Ships would frequently explode without warning. Fireshocks were supposed to be the warning, but more often than not, ships would explode directly from just being on fire. Sometimes, ships would even explode directly, without even catching on fire first. This happened to me once in San Juan.

 

Lets get some trivia out to public

Fire and Fire shock history in Naval Action

  • Fire has the radius
    • Once this radius reaches the sails they burn
    • Once this radius reaches the magazine it explodes
    • Fire damages internal structure and hull (but not a lot initially)
  • Crew has ability to firefight
    • Every meter of fire requires crew
    • If you have less crew than fire requires it starts growing faster
    • Full crew can always put out any fire unless they are under fire or explode
  • You can increase the size of the fire by firing into the burning ship. This was done by the royal navy consistently against the french. 
  • If fire size grows crew requirement goes up
    • old system - more crew is not required
    • new system - more crew required - as bigger the fire bigger is complexity
  • Ship can go into fire shock - which means that when the fire reaches certain size crew drops everything and starts working on fire only (for survival reasons) - fire shock can only happen when the fire reaches a certain size
    • Fire shock is just an indication of size of fire
      • When we noticed that player mistakenly connect fire shock with explosions we reworked it and greatly increased the size of fire shock. Previously it was like 1/20 of the ship length, now its 1/8
      • Explosions were never connected to fire shock. As a result people started seeing explosions with no indication. Which happened when fire reached the magazine (starting near it). It was exaggerated under fire. 
      • Fire shocks were never the warning. 

In the old systems you mention.
Fire shock was too small and crew required to fire fight was too small and thats why large ships exploded very rarely.
There were never warnings on explosions. People thought there were but there were not. If you fire starts near magazine and reaches it you can explode IMMEDIATELY without even a fire icon. 

As a result we got a lot of questions on this and this system was changed last week 

  • Now you cannot explode immediately
  • Now your ship can only explode on fireshock and have been on fireshock for 15 seconds (enough for other ships to press brace) 
  • Fire can reach the magazine immediately but you wont explode until everyone sees the fireshock visual indication.
  • Fire shock is a warning now (unlike before)

....

The origin of fire buff.

  • Some might have been happy with the fires and explosions, but some were not. We received a lot of reports and complaints that explosions were not strong enough. Main complain they stopped dropping masts and top sections and they did not kill enough crew..
  • We also witnessed that people did not even brace before explosions on videos in large battles and shrugged off exploding ships and ships on fire as nuisance, not as dangerous event. 
  • We do not ships explosions will not have such effect if fleets keep stations and lines. Of course you all want to stay together. Explosions

You asked in another topic - is it testing. No and yes. We want continue to push damage model to the state where it will resemble our mental model of perfect age of sail combat. We might overtweak it here and there.  But in general dangerous explosions and fire discipline and station keeping were less required before than now. We like it more now.. Maybe the distance is bigger than it should be - in code its 400m. very reasonable for the flat sea shockwave. 

Forthcoming

All fireship fittings will have -70% penalty to crew next week
We will slightly reduce the range of explosions
But they will remain deadly because we like it, because we sell OUR version of the mental model of perfect age of sail combat. This is how we like it. 
 

Current workaround

  • Get buckets. Replace cartagena or navy hull with buckets and you save 5 first rates. If you all get buckets you will never get on fire.
  • Keep a proper line - bow to stern - 100 m away. Fire ship wont be so effective. 



    PS complaints about first rate fire ships are not accepted - its a game and players can do what they want with ships they captured. first rates did explode for devastating effect. If you give Orient examples give distances too. There were no ships in the 500m vicinity to it. 


 

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2 minutes ago, Liman said:

That is all well and good, but we are now having 1st rates that do brace losing all masts, 1k+ crew

Masts yes. Crew no. You cant lose 1000+ crew if you are on brace. 

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4 minutes ago, admin said:

Masts yes. Crew no. You cant lose 1000+ crew if you are on brace. 

But a second rate losing 900 crew while not bracing and sailing 300 meters or so away from an explosion is still way too much. I do not believe there is any historical reference to such a thing ever happening. All crew on the top deck could die/be injured but why would the crew below decks be killed outright? A long crew shock would make a lot more sense. 

Instead of masts being outright blown off, all sails could catch fire. Ships closer to the explosion get multiple fires. 

Today it favored us but honestly it's rather silly, that people are just exploding on purpose cause it's so much more effective than actually using their 1st rate to fight. Just explode and you can kill 3 ships. 

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2 minutes ago, Never said:

But a second rate losing 900 crew while not bracing and sailing 300 meters or so away from an explosion is still way too much.

Thats the point. Who considers too much, too much. To much compared to before? Yes. 
Too much considered 50 tons of explosives exploding? 

44gun frigate carried 15 tons of gunpowder in 1756. 15 TONS OF EXPLOSIVE

 

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37 minutes ago, admin said:
  • Get buckets. Replace cartagena or navy hull with buckets and you save 5 first rates. If you all get buckets you will never get on fire.
  • Keep a proper line - bow to stern - 100 m away. Fire ship wont be so effective. 



    PS complaints about first rate fire ships are not accepted - its a game and players can do what they want with ships they captured. first rates did explode for devastating effect. If you give Orient examples give distances too. There were no ships in the 500m vicinity to it. 


 

Well it is super effective at 100m

It is also enemy 1sts that are exploding not the friendly ones. Or can I throw buckets of water on enemy ships?

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13 minutes ago, admin said:

Thats the point. Who considers too much, too much. To much compared to before? Yes. 
Too much considered 50 tons of explosives exploding? 

44gun frigate carried 15 tons of gunpowder in 1756. 15 TONS OF EXPLOSIVE

 

Yes true but the physics due to the location of the explosion would affect it's outgoing force. All the explosives are in the stores of the ship, which is cocooned by the armored hull. The explosion would likely be upwards in the direction of least resistance, not sideways. We have to consider it's not an explosion in the open and the crew affected is also not in the open. There's 2 hulls, armored hulls made to stop canon balls in the way of the force of that explosion. 

But again, even when the 1st rate Orient exploded it did not kill all crew in any of the other ships in that battle. It didn't even kill a lot of crew in any of the ships in the battle. 

Edited by Never
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11 minutes ago, Never said:

 

But again, even when the 1st rate Orient exploded it did not kill all crew in any of the other ships in that battle. It didn't even kill a lot of crew in any of the ships in the battle. 

We replied to this above.. there was no ships closer than 400-500 meters to it.  And everyone was on brace.

Size of the powder magazine was never reviewed before and weight of gunpowder is high for old style explosions. It was more like farting than exploding

Here are 2 tables
Source FEMA 426 - Risks during terrorists attacks against buildings

V3vqWVn.jpg


3k4hyOt.jpg

50 tons is 100,000 lb 
100000 lb demolishes concrete at 100 ft. 
 

 

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4 minutes ago, Liman said:

 

Also im no expert but im going with age of sail quality gunpowder and modern day military munitions are not exactly comparable. Also the "safe distance" is not really a measure. Safe for where you would want to stand is one thing, safe for your warship whos masts are built to withstand huge amounts of force is another. Your calculator doesnt help this argument one way or another.

Also we can argue this all day every day but this is not making anyone happy. I have been on the winning side of most fireships today but i still realise this is not a good thing in the current state. The playerbase is not going to enjoy this when it happens to them and currently it is happening more and more as people realise how OP it is.
 

HMS victory had 780 barrels of gunpowder shared between 3 magazines, one barrel weighted in at 45kg aka 35000 kg of Black Powder. If ignited it had the force equal to 47 tons of TNT.

Now this is a video of 50 tons tnt that explodes

 

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From what I experienced today I agree that we take way to much crew damage in general from fire-ships. It is very unrealistic to take a lot of crew damage at what I consider to be long distance, 200-300 meters. If your in "Brace" at that distance the crew loss should minimal/zero.
Not sure how much RNG is involved in crew damage, but imo brace should flat out guarantee that you keep at least 50% of your current crew at close range and then increase up to 100% at 200 meters. 

I like sail/mast damage a lot, but I have never noticed taking hp damage from a fire ship.. Looking forward to the tweaking of this mechanic :) 

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13 minutes ago, admin said:

44gun frigate carried 15 tons of gunpowder in 1756. 15 TONS OF EXPLOSIVE

1. 44-gun ship in 1756 is not a frigate, but 2-decker usually

2. Action of 7th March of 1778 between 32-gun frigate Randolph and 64-gun 3rd rate Yarmouth. Fought on such close range that they even tossed grenades to each other. When Randolph exploded, sails and rigging on Yarmouth was badly damaged (she lost bowspit and topmasts), but losses were only 5 men dead and 12 wounded for the whole action. The main danger from explosion was falling debris.

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@admin I understand your points, but you yourself made the post saying you did no want fireships becoming the top way to easily win battles. Or am I wrong in that?

At the moment, as they are now, exploding ships/fireships continue to be the best and easiest way to win large fleet battles. 

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2 minutes ago, Liman said:

I give up. if you want to use that video as how to build your fire ships then im not leaving port any more.
 

You give up too easily. 

This is a discussion topic - not a blame topic or a fighting pit. I am sick and tired of outraged people running around shouting THE END IS COMING after every change they do not like or understand. Come and explain what you need and what you dont need.

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admin, I don't see any of the players in this conversation supporting how the exploding ship mechanic works today.

When the majority of players on both the defending and attacking side in the battle today all seem to agree the results are far too extreme, you really should take notice.

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6 minutes ago, admin said:

Here are 2 tables
Source FEMA 426 - Risks during terrorists attacks against buildings

First, blast (both blast wave and pressure) must destroy sturdy oak timbers of the exploding ship, then it must penetrate sturdy oak planking covering men working on gundecks of the ship 100-200 m away.

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Not to be rude, but most of the experienced RvR community and the hard core players that keep this game running has now raised there concern about this. This goes for players on both sides of the war/battle.

Think this feature need to be nerfed back alot and rather turn og up slightly until the sweetspot is achived.

Better to to slightly increase on how it was, then go to max then try to fix it. If this keeps going players Will loose intrest for big ship RvR or RvR all toghter. As one of the organiser for RvR within Russia i will most likly stop it, because it is not worth loosing all those good 1st rates to a green ocean exploding.

 

@admin please listen to the constuctiv critism you get her.

You wanted us to be more helpful and now we try, please show us that it works.

 

Edited by North
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9 minutes ago, admin said:

You give up too easily. 

That Christian in front got destroyed by the fireship in the back in this moment. This is 400-500m

All Sails intact but 900 ppl died.

It is just not fun to have big battles like this.

image.thumb.png.0d5d29eb89818c740600182bb1e6cbb5.png

 

The video: (And sekiro is right in the end)

 

Edited by rediii
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13 minutes ago, erelkivtuadrater said:

HMS victory had 780 barrels of gunpowder shared between 3 magazines, one barrel weighted in at 45kg aka 35000 kg of Black Powder. If ignited it had the force equal to 47 tons of TNT.

Now this is a video of 50 tons tnt that explodes

 

This can't be used to compare directly though; the explosives are suspended in the air. We would need something were the explosives are underground perhaps, to simulate the conditions of a wooden armored hull and see it effects on something at comparable distances from what is used in game. Plus consider whatever is affected would also have to be behind some at least basic level of protection to simulate the other ship.

Also notice the trees didn't get blown to pieces or ripped out of the ground, like our masts do. 

Edited by Never

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