Naval Action now Pay to win ?

[Earl of Grey]

Did we cross the border and have now really pay to win? The new seasoned woods are that expensive, you need to invest the labor hours of at least 2 weeks and more than 2 million reals (just a very raw calculation) in building an Agamemnon from the new seasoned woods.

With dlc you get the new woods once a day ... the dlc ships with the new woods are far better than before ... and because of the expensiveness of the new woods you get now really superships for you real money ....

Then there is the fact that many just redeeem the ships to break them up and get some logs of the new woods ...

[z4ys]

11 minutes ago, Earl of Grey said:

Atm i think i will prefere stop playing ..

This made your text spam

Make some real suggestions if you dislike content and stop blackmailing.

• DLC ships should not give Reals / Mats when selling or breaking up
• Spawning a DLC ship with seasoned wood should cost doubloons too
• etc

That would be helpfull

 

[LeBoiteux]

DLC ships should come with free carronades, repair kits, etc.

Edited December 1, 2019 by LeBoiteux

[Guest]

I'd take my Wappen over a seasoned Rat any day, we're not yet into the Pay to Win territory. It is something this game could so easily do and squeeze a hell of a lot of money out its playerbase and the fact they haven't done that is something that should be respected. I think if it comes to the point where every PvP'er is using a DLC ship and beating normal built ships then we have a problem, but right now I think we're ok. 

[admin]

1 hour ago, Earl of Grey said:

Did we cross the border and have now really pay to win?

You were kind in your old posts- thus deserve a reply. 

• If we add a distillery and improve depth of alcohol making and rum making some people would cry it was done to sell more admiralty connections. In fact any new building introductions (increasing depth and socialization) will cause such complains - in fact we were accused about it when we added some new buildings. You can ignore those crybabies.
• Same with seasoned woods.
  • You can get seasoned woods for free from sinking certain NPCs or players hunting those NPCs. Players who only sit on docks and complain of course will need to spend weeks seasoning woods for your best vessels. Not any more - hence the outrage. We no longer respond to outrage.
  • Best first rates can now be made either -
    • large cooperated action - or long waiting + lots lots of money
    • open world activity - by sinking Privateer fleets (actually risking something)

On paid content in general

• People were saying the game is p2w when we introduced an imported overpowered yacht. It was happening when the yacht was not even sailing officially and the game was not on sale. 
• Our official position remains - Its not P2W if you can build or capture a better ship you cant call lower quality vessels imported vessels.
  • Surprise is better than any imported ship in game
  • Ocean and santisima is better than any imported ship in game
  • it is only pay to win when the only way to get power is to buy something for real money.
• BUT, There are 100s of opinions on the matter
  • Some people say yacht is p2w because its better than lynx.
  • Some people call bullshit on this saying ocean is better than yacht anyway. 
  • We no longer will waste time arguing. Customers are always right and will vote for the game by their feet or their wallets.
• Customers want beautiful ships and we will give it to them. The exchange is fair, because if it was unfair we would be called on this, and everybody would be gone. We do not sneak in anything. We are 100% open. We were promising premium ships since 2013

This is what will happen

• We will continue adding new imported ships in ratio of 2/3 to 1 (2 or 3 paid 1 free) for the foreseeable future. Mainly focused on gaps or beauty.
• New content expansions (like new campaigns like operations in CS, or new professions or maps) will be mostly paid like all expansions in MMOs or ongoing living games. Improvements of features already in game (combat model, wind, sailing) will always be free. 

There is no point to complain. Most new ships will be DLC. Most new features will focus on increase of immersion, reduction of inflation, or removal of time wasting. Seasoned woods create new goals, and create huge money sinks and will reduce inflation.

[Guest]

So basically, you're going to ignore the problem because people are angry? That is...actually insulting.

[Malcolm3]

9 minutes ago, Winterthrust said:

So basically, you're going to ignore the problem because people are angry? That is...actually insulting.

He ignores the topic starter and other such whinners, who  don't like changes because they ruine the play style.

Unfortunately whining and cries of such people ended so that devs are now no longer in mood of discussing their plans with community as they are fed up with.

14 minutes ago, admin said:

This is what will happen

• We will continue adding new imported ships in ratio of 2 to 1 (2 paid 1 free) for the foreseeable future. Mainly focused on gaps or beauty.
• New content expansions (like new campaigns like operations in CS, or new professions or maps) will be mostly paid like all expansions in MMOs or ongoing living games. Improvements of already features will always be free. 

That's can be very dangerous, especially if you plan to add Ship-of the-Line DLCs - that completely destroy RVR balance. And personally I would prefer DLC of content expasions, not of ships.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Malcolm3

[z4ys]

17 minutes ago, Malcolm3 said:

 DLC of content expasions, not of ships.

Ships are content for game labs. (If you want i can search for that qoute). Best would be to be more specific about what you mean by content.

[Sir Loorkon]

10 minutes ago, Malcolm3 said:

That's can be very dangerous, especially if you plan to add Ship-of the-Line DLCs - that completely destroy RVR balance. And personally I would prefer DLC of content expasions, not of ships.

If I remember correctly it was said a while ago that the maximum rate of DLCs will be 4th rates. That was is the context of the introduction of the Rättvisan. Thats the reason why I bought it. I like the DLC idea as long as they are not overpowered. At the moment I think the DLCs are quite good and balanced, fare better as in the beginning where Requin and Hercules where - in my opinion - overpowered. I hope that the DLC introduction continues if it helps to the game.

[admin]

27 minutes ago, Winterthrust said:

So basically, you're going to ignore the problem because people are angry? That is...actually insulting.

Correct. People (including me) do not post anything of value when they are angry. We posted sometimes when we were angry - it did not lead to anything good. 
Same with users. Remember the outrage on the cost of the transport (teleport) of 10 doubloons?  Outraged players literally shouted that this teleport fee is going to kill the game, some said we are adding it to sell doubloon DLC.

Did we waste time responding to them and conversing in that topic trying to calm angry people ? Yes. We wasted a lot of time. 
We no longer converse with outraged trolls and do not respond angry rants. Automated rules take care of them making forum nicer, kinder, friendlier place.

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, admin said:

Correct. People (including me) do not post anything of value when they are angry. We posted sometimes when we were angry - it did not lead to anything good. 
Same with users. Remember the outrage on the cost of the transport (teleport) of 10 doubloons?  Outraged players literally shouted that this teleport fee is going to kill the game, some said we are adding it to sell doubloon DLC.

Did we waste time responding to them and conversing in that topic trying to calm angry people ? Yes. We wasted a lot of time. 
We no longer converse with outraged trolls and do not respond angry rants. Automated rules take care of them making forum nicer, kinder, friendlier place.

 

There is a difference between tieing down your time feeding trolls and addressing the concerns of your community. I've seen many posts where people have been respectful and spoken in a calm manner and you've ignored them in favour of addressing the one post that comes off as snarky then used that as an excuse to lock the topic or ignore the issue, as you are doing here. Surly you can understand the difference between whiney people getting salty over teleport fees and the frustrated outrage of game changing mechanics added in without warning.

According to steam we've lost over 9,000 players since launch, No Mans Sky has more players than we do at peak even back when everyone still hated it, that is maybe some sort of hint, please don't tell me you genuinely think this games userbase is dying because the players are whiny?

[admin]

3 minutes ago, Sir Loorkon said:

If I remember correctly it was said a while ago that the maximum rate of DLCs will be 4th rates. 

Original statement was : any ship up to a 3rd rate can be dlc.
Later we said lineships (meaning 1st rates) wont be DLC.
Some people read these statements differently and actively complained especially after 4th rate introduction.

Some even tried to report us to Valve for classing Chapman's Rattvisan as a 4th rate - i am serious some people sent Valve links to 3decks - in vain of course, as valve told them to relax and play..

We try to phrase ourselves very carefully, but its human nature that every statement can be misread. Everything that can be misread will be misread (peter's principle).
We do not have time to cater to every misreading and misrepresentation. As a result we will act as we see best for the game and for the fans and customers.

[Suppenkelle]

16 minutes ago, admin said:

Correct. People (including me) do not post anything of value when they are angry. We posted sometimes when we were angry - it did not lead to anything good. 
Same with users. Remember the outrage on the cost of the transport (teleport) of 10 doubloons?  Outraged players literally shouted that this teleport fee is going to kill the game, some said we are adding it to sell doubloon DLC.

Did we waste time responding to them and conversing in that topic trying to calm angry people ? Yes. We wasted a lot of time. 
We no longer converse with outraged trolls and do not respond angry rants. Automated rules take care of them making forum nicer, kinder, friendlier place.

 

I remember that and I did not like the shouting but I could understand it in a way. When Doubloons were introduced they were exchanged at 1:1 with PvP marks which were very valuable before. Many of the players I knew had some 50 PvP marks after collecting for weeks. So, of course many were shocked at the prospect of paying 10 Doubloons per teleport. I considerably relaxed once you announced that you were aiming at an exchange rate of 1:8 with reals.

It's just an idea but maybe giving this goal to the community right from the start could have helped to keep people calm.

[Malcolm3]

18 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Ships are content for game labs. (If you want i can search for that qoute). Best would be to be more specific about what you mean by content.

Yes I know (so no need to search for the quote), but too many DLC-ships (types of them) can and will undermine game economy, so everyone will sail them and there will be no market for shipbuilders. If they introduce 3rd rate DLC (and they most likely will, considering that last post of @admin), then everyone will sail them, built of Seasoned Woods, just like Wasas today. Simply because people will sail the best ships that are easiest to obtain (no resources gathering, no permits and even bonuises, though random)

Now  we don't have any problems because we have not many DLC-ships, but if we will have 1 DLC ship for each free ship (and if they are going introduce 2 DLC for 1 free ship that certainly will happen)... then crafting ships become almost useless (except may be 1st rates).

By content I mean so operations, campaigns, maps etc - so not instruments of game (ships), but activities.

[Earl of Grey]

33 minutes ago, admin said:

Best first rates can now be made either -

• large cooperated action - or long waiting + lots lots of money
• open world activity - by sinking Privateer fleets (actually risking something)

 

Here is my problem, you forget the 3rd way:

 - breaking up all you DLC Ships every day and build a seasoned-wood 1st rate every 2 weeks ...  faster if there are more DLCs coming ...

If you see it this way DLCs are premium access to the best ships in game. Its like the Hercules note in admirality shop ... sure i can get a herc without buying DLC, but it will cost me 100 (?) Combat Mark = many hours to play for a small ship ...

I dont have and never had a problem with DLCs, in fact i bought many of them to support you developing this game (and because i liked em, ofcourse)! I have no problem with DLC ships because they offer an easy access to players with low time or low will to grind ... but DLC-ships should not be overpowered ... and that we have atm. I met a Rättvisan out of KPR today ... i had a Wasa with long cannons and it was really (!!!) hard to pen this ship from some distance ...

I mean a player - lets say a flag captain - how should he do pvp without the DLCs in the future? For the time he has no access to the new wood ... it needs to fight a fleet with 2 Oceans, 4 Wasas and 5 Trincos ... is he intended to fight Seasoned-Wood-(DLC)-ships with his normal-wood-ships?  I know we already had this gap, it needs time to get access to rare Woods and Portboni ... and now the gap will be even bigger ...

 

[Guest]

Of course, some people are stupid and rarely deserve the attention, I've worked as a community manager, fourm admin, reddit mod and worked retail, sometimes you have to use your instinct to know who to respond too and who to ignore, but you can't ignore every customer because of that one woman who demanded a replacement glass of water because the ice had watered down her water (true story) in the same manner you cannot disregard the concerns of your community because a few of them reported you to valve out of paranoia.

If you ignore your community and continue to treat them with the same level of contempt that you typically do then their frustration never gets answered, it builds up into miss trust and the players already greatly misstrust you, situations like the seasoned wood only adds weight to that miss trust and soon they will never believe anything you tell them. That's when normal, reasonable players become trolls. Its what happen to Warhammer Fantasy, their playerbase grew so toxic on the ignorance of the developers they had to re-build the entire game from scratch.

You may not like it but you have to talk to your community, sometimes you get trolls, sometimes you get people who never believe you and just accuse you of whatever thoughts jump into their mind, sometimes you waste your time, sometimes you don't. Its a tough job, but a necessary one and if the devs don't want to do it then there is really no point in having this fourm and if its burning you out that much, take a break.

[Suppenkelle]

Actually, he is talking to his community right now.

[admin]

4 minutes ago, rediii said:

ingame you coded it that 1-3rd rates are actually lineships.

Also the rät (or prototype_wasa) was a 3rd rate a long time until people complained in the forum. Noe you are saying that 3rd and 2nd rate DLC ships will be a thing. Super woods also favor DLC ships especially once a 3rd rate is out it will be hard to believe that this ship will be properly balanced.

I maybe do some research later and quote your post but im pretty sure you said that lineships will never be DLC with the context of complains about the rät being a 3rd rate

Well i guess you have to trust me - game creator - on what I said can be and cannot be in the game. We always meant it and said it in 2014 and  multiple posts on this (quoting this statement) were done during Ratt/Wasa forum storm.. If you misread our statement or assumed some classifications its not my problem, its also not your problem.

Redoutable will be an imported ship. Its slightly stronger classmate Implacable ( Duguay-Trouin) will be a crafteable free 3rd rate.

[admin]

9 minutes ago, rediii said:

What will the CD of the redoutable be to redeem one? 1 day aswell?

How many LH are required to craft a implaceable teak(s) whiteoak(s)?

Of course one day. All DLC have 24 hour cooldown - people love them and use them for this comfort and convenience.
But before you ask your friend Liam to calculate LH for us (as he thinks we cant do that)
I think you should sail to 2 capitals with privateers and see how fast you can get the required woods for a 3rd rate without using LH. Once tested such privateers will be assigned to all capitals. 

[admin]

1 minute ago, rediii said:

atleast show some respect to your free playerbase and remove duperwoods from DLC ships or give the chance to get a permit and craft superwood DLC shops instead with a accountbount permit you can redeem with the DLC

As i said above. Getting seasoned wood is not hard - you have not figured it the method just yet, but i know you will. 

[Never]

7 minutes ago, admin said:

Well i guess you have to trust me - game creator - on what I said can be and cannot be in the game. We always meant it and said it in 2014 and  multiple posts on this (quoting this statement) were done during Ratt/Wasa forum storm.. If you misread our statement or assumed some classifications its not my problem, its also not your problem.

Redoutable will be an imported ship. Its slightly stronger classmate Implacable ( Duguay-Trouin) will be a crafteable free 3rd rate.

You create problems when you leave things to anybody's interpretation instead of making things clear as you should. Most of the population considers 3rd rates line ships which many interpreted your words as if you promised line ships would never be DLCs. If that's what you mean or if you meant something else, you should've made clear right then and there. Not leave official statements from a developer in some grey area where some players may think one thing and others may think another. 

Doing things like that hurts your reputation and the game, right now many of us decide to give the game very positive reviews cause we want to support the game and you, the developers. Causing massive misinformation and missinterpretation of facts just leads to more negative reviews and it only hurts the game and it's playerbase. 

[Archaos]

The one simple fact is that at present there is no other way for them to have an income stream other than selling DLC. I mentioned this in a post quite a while back, but others said I was wrong. So now it comes down to accepting DLC or finding some other way to fund the cost of servers and development.

My biggest problem with the DLC route is that the game looks more and more expensive to any new player wanting to start when they total up the base game cost and all the DLC's. Personally I am in the camp that would play a game that was constantly being improved an added to but charged a monthly subscription rather than DLC's for one off charges, but thats just me.

[Navalus Magnus]

1 hour ago, admin said:

We no longer respond to outrage.

When do you label posts as "outrage"?

I ask, because i myself and others too asked you questions / criticised the way you introduced seasoned woods to the game and got no answer from you that adressed the crucial things.

Are my posts labled as "outrage" if they hint at me, being disappointed / shocked by the way things were handled / communicated by you?

[Malcolm3]

20 minutes ago, rediii said:

I maybe do some research later and quote your post but im pretty sure you said that lineships will never be DLC with the context of complains about the rät being a 3rd rate

I did.

Here -

Here -

And here -

 

[Navalus Magnus]

12 minutes ago, admin said:

I think you should sail to 2 capitals with privateers and see how fast you can get the required woods for a 3rd rate without using LH. Once tested such privateers will be assigned to all capitals. 

Ok, to a cetain level i get the intention of you using privateer fleets linked to the seasoned woods thing.

BUT isn't it unfair, that the top 3 nations don't need to fight ow privateers in enemy waters?

As i understood they can sit at thier docks, waiting for the NPC PB fleets to get permits for the hut and seasoned woods as well, am i right!?