SAFETY OFF - Raiders Start Attacking Ports

[Gregory Rainsborough]

14 hours ago, Archaos said:

The biggest fear of big nations losing ports regularly to the AI is that eventually people will setup alt clans in that nation and snatch the port from the AI as the hostility window is random, and who ever can get enough points in the hostility will own the port after the battle. All they have to do then is to restrict access to other clans in that nation to render the port ineffective.

For example today the Nassau hostility window opened at 18:00, so if a group of Swedish alts had set up in Russia they could of had a good chance of raising the hostility enough so they got the port, and there is nothing the rest of the Russian nation could do to stop them.

They weren't Swedes, I'll let you know more in my next issue

[Holm Hansen]

back to topic:

The main problem for me are the fixed join circles for the defenders, whereas the point zones are placed very differently. Many points zones are easy to defend, no doubt, but for other the defenders will only be able to fire 2-3 broadsides to the raiders, before they reach the point zones. There are even extremes, where the raiders will reach the point zones without a shot can be fired.

Statistics are not helpful, if i have to defend such a port. A nation change will also be of no use, i play on the PVE server, there every port will be attacked.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Holm Hansen

[BoatyMcBoatFace]

2 hours ago, Tiedemann said:

Don had a 14,5+ kn Renommee and was not gaining, I was in a te/wo Renommme and even with the wind we had no chance to intercept all before they entered the circle. Next time I bring fir/fir. 

is that 14.5 in docks or 14.5 in the water? because t/wo is already a problem if you are talking speed. 

[Archaos]

8 hours ago, Dark123 said:

I play sweden

 

How is that content for me?

Its content for you if you setup an alt clan in the other nation and quickly grab hostility on that port when it comes up. This way as owner of the port you can restrict access to the ports investment and even destroy all investment in the port.

Basically what it means now is that a strong group of players have a bunch of alts ready with forged papers to move quickly to a nation that has lost a port to AI, so they can raise hostility as soon as the window opens.

[Archaos]

2 hours ago, Gregory Rainsborough said:

They weren't Swedes, I'll let you know more in my next issue

I was just using that as an example and the same could have happened to the Swedes at Saint John's, another nation clan with alts could have quickly jumped to Sweden and taken Saint John's especially considering the hostility window it had of 01:00 ~ 04:00.

Anyway I look forward to your next issue, your reporting may be a bit biased but still worth the read.

[van Veen]

16 hours ago, admin said:

Losing Nassau to NPC IS CONTENT to all weaker or downtrodden players in all other nations. 

No, it's not. No other nation is participating in this event at all. 

Weaker nations being able to snatch a port from neutral is a myth. Never happened until now and most likely won't happen in the near future. 

[Mouth of Sauron]

47 minutes ago, van Veen said:

No, it's not. No other nation is participating in this event at all. 

Weaker nations being able to snatch a port from neutral is a myth. Never happened until now and most likely won't happen in the near future. 

@admin To echo these sentiments we've had 3 AI PBs a week for a couple of months now and have had zero ports actually change into the hands of another nation.  We've had a number fail to the AI inside and the front lines system prevents the capture via other nations.  What is at risk is alt clans flipping the ports and holding the nation hostage.  The weekend before last there were several russian + danish fleets outside San Juan and none were able to actually screen the swedes out.  Screening at a number of ports was attempted and unsuccessful, they can join before tags get off with the 20sec immunity.  Multi-flips are a threat with the battles, but can be circumvented by playing timer games.  

The community, which almost never agrees with each other, is almost unanimous in their disdain for the NPC battles.    

So the real question is....why?  They are a burden to the players.  Not having the desired effects of ports falling into other nations hands.  Screening is almost impossible and not worth doing.  I see the value of these fights on the PVE server,  but here it seems unnecessary.

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Mouth of Sauron

[Gregory Rainsborough]

3 hours ago, Archaos said:

Its content for you if you setup an alt clan in the other nation and quickly grab hostility on that port when it comes up. This way as owner of the port you can restrict access to the ports investment and even destroy all investment in the port.

Basically what it means now is that a strong group of players have a bunch of alts ready with forged papers to move quickly to a nation that has lost a port to AI, so they can raise hostility as soon as the window opens.

Shouldn't piss so many people off then

[Koveras]

16 hours ago, admin said:

We are considering adding another investment card allowing clans to add points themselves. But of course this could create more imbalance than advantages.. but it seems a very good feature on paper.
Which nation lars plays these days? Is the proposal for clan to control the points comes from weak or strong nation?

It would be easier to see what nation Lars Kjaer plays if he could actually write in the forums. Lars has never played a strong nation tho, nor a strong clan. Someone has to be the underdog - the wins are grander, the losses more natural.

[Gregory Rainsborough]

9 minutes ago, Mouth of Sauron said:

Not having the desired effects of ports falling into other nations hands.  Screening is almost impossible and not worth doing.  I see the value of these fights on the PVE server,  but here it seems unnecessary.

Perhaps then it is time for @admin to extend the amount of time until the port can regain hostility to a week? That'll give people a chance to organise an attack on the ports that are lost.

[Gregory Rainsborough]

Or perhaps allow ports lost to NPC raiders or neutral ports entirely to be circumvented by frontlines. Anyone can generate hostility for it if it is neutral.

[Koveras]

6 minutes ago, Gregory Rainsborough said:

Perhaps then it is time for @admin to extend the amount of time until the port can regain hostility to a week? That'll give people a chance to organise an attack on the ports that are lost.

It won't help. The strong are stronger because of better equipment and larger numbers. The current system of port bonus' and strategic mods (with no other way to get strategic ressources than through alts/nation swapping) just ensures that the strong will stay strong and the rest. Well - when's the last time we saw a PB between two evenly matched nations?

Sweden is cherry-bashing on GB. Russia is borsjt-smashing the dutch. No low-pop nations do RvR anymore and can any1 really blame them? Prussia is the exception, but they basically got 1 organized clan and more importantly they have access to two 55p ports.

 

You won't see a different result by giving more time to plan - numbers on the stronger side will still be larger.

 

EDIT: My point eluded my typing... 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Koveras

[admin]

17 hours ago, Liq said:

I didnt record ours at saint johns - but it was over pretty fast in a few min once the 1st rates got to the circles. Also in the british one they managed to get to 800 pts with only very few 1st rates getting there.

Maybe @Anolytic can provide further info since they had more raids than us.

But i looked at the points counter - i think 1 point per ship in circle every 2 sec id pretty accurate, and if it is, the calculation (see few posts above) is correct

Сhecked again; No bugs found
Impossible - you probably missed a trader or experienced einsteins relativity theory in action (under pressure time flies differently)

Here are the numbers (which include initial 15 points for entry but assume no traders reach the zones)
1 point every 7 seconds (or 8 points per minute) 
15 ships will win the battle in 6 mins 
10 ships will win in 10 mins
5 ships will win in 21 mins

Bots in NPC Raider Port battles do not have bonuses for speed. They are designed to sail at the speed of the slowest ship in group. 
Due to wind positions in such battles  Its not recommended to use spanish rig in shallow battles, better use pirate rig giving bonuses to closed haul speed.

 

In addition to that
The NPC raider bonuses are only combat related
They have penalties to armor thickness (-20%) and have penalties to HP (-15%) so captains who focus fire well, destroy them with ease. Comments that they are too strong can be dismissed.

 

[Mouth of Sauron]

5 minutes ago, Gregory Rainsborough said:

Or perhaps allow ports lost to NPC raiders or neutral ports entirely to be circumvented by frontlines. Anyone can generate hostility for it if it is neutral.

maybe the closest enemy nation can.  having it be an FFA would be a nightmare 

[Liq]

28 minutes ago, admin said:

Here are the numbers (which include initial 15 points for entry but assume no traders reach the zones)
1 point every 7 seconds (or 8 points per minute) 
15 ships will win the battle in 6 mins 
10 ships will win in 10 mins
5 ships will win in 21 mins

1 point every 7 seconds per ship in circle

Scenario: 10 1st rates get ro a circle ("low risk task" according to you)

1000 - (10*15) = 850 pts remaining

10 ships in circle generating 10 points every 7 seconds. Equals 1.43 points per second. Equals 85 points per minute.

-> it takes 10 minutes til battle is lost once 10 warships (not traders!) reach the circle. 

I would not call this a "low risk task".

[admin]

 

25 minutes ago, Liq said:

1 point every 7 seconds per ship in circle

Scenario: 10 1st rates get ro a circle ("low risk task" according to you)

1000 - (10*15) = 850 pts remaining

10 ships in circle generating 10 points every 7 seconds. Equals 1.43 points per second. Equals 85 points per minute.

-> it takes 10 minutes til battle is lost once 10 warships (not traders!) reach the circle. 

I would not call this a "low risk task".

Not sure what you mean by the high risk task. Climbing the Everest is a hard task, focus firing and stopping ships sailing straight line at constant speed is an easy task. 
You can do it. Casual WOW 25 player raids are 10x harder than this. 

 

[erelkivtuadrater]

3 minutes ago, admin said:

Casual WOW 25 men raids are 10x harder than this.

think you're wrong here, the Raid Finder (casual raids) in WoW you can literally AFK through, speaking from 14 years of WoW experience. If we could get aggro from the ai and lead them away in the opposite direction of the circle that would be the same as Raid Finder in WoW

Edited January 28, 2020 by erelkivtuadrater

[admin]

52 minutes ago, admin said:

 

Not sure what you mean by the high risk task. Climbing the Everest is a hard task, focus firing and stopping ships sailing straight line at constant speed is an easy task. 
You can do it. Casual WOW 25 player raids are 10x harder than this. 

 

but.. promised stats

all Raider port battles this weekend were lost by players, but of course only a limited number of them were attended. We will check battles that were attended and see what happened. 

[Koveras]

7 minutes ago, admin said:

but.. promised stats

all Raider port battles this weekend were lost by players

Stats are faulty. NPC raid on Truxillo was defended by the best PvE'ers in the game.

[AeRoTR]

I was the one leading Truxillo northern group. 2 cristians + 8x1st rate for the northern most difficult circle defence where raiders are totally upwind of you. 

 First of all you need 20-25 captains who knows to focus fire, and sails well. It is a group action. Even in GB it is not possible to get those 25 captains into group all the time. 

It is impossible to intercept ai fleet enough far away, to sink them before they reach the circle when they are totally upwind. We did it few times, but wind was slightly better. This time it was totally upwind. We tacked 2 times, we could intercept them close to circle. Even though it was told who would kill 3 indiamans, it did not happen so. 

Because ai raiders were intercepted very close to circle, some guys panicked (you can not find those 25 guys all the times :)) we missed 1 indiaman, score was 200ish before indiaman joined the circle. As soon as it joins, score became 500 and shortly 700,even though it was already sinking.

So it is not easy task, it is not carebear job in that total upwind join of raiders to a circle. 

It needs carefull planning and good team. 

I also find raiders to be appairing only after battle starting, to increase difficulty to much higher levels. 

I will not give advice which will make the job much easier, because it is fun to see Havoc getting wrecked havoc by carebear level stupid npcs. 

[TheDread]

23 hours ago, admin said:

It happens all the time in RL
Syria is now unusable by Nation X because of Nation Y proxy intervention. And vice versa Libya is not usable by Nation Y because of Nation X proxy (alt) intervention. the list of RL examples is endless from Latin america to Africa.

Why our wargame should be different? Should it be?

 

Excellent.   Create a mechanic for Nation X to retake Syria, just like exists in the real world.  Why our wargame should be any different, indeed.

IF there is a way for a nation to oust a 'friendly' rogue clan from a port, even if it's difficult or expensive...  that's fine, and actually solves some other problems - i.e. what to do when a clan goes dormant or changes nations but refuses to drop their ports.  With the old capital-based front line mechanic it was at least POSSIBLE to use your own alt clan or invite a friendly nation to take a couple of ports to get hostility on something deep in your territory.  Now you'd have to hand over practically every port between the nearest freeport and the problem port.  Fix this so there's a way that friendly clans can incite revolt in a port somehow and get another stab at running hostilities.   

Otherwise...  in a few months...  all of the 55 point ports on the map will be dead because alt clans will have hijacked them and rendered them unusable and there will be no way to recover any of them.   

[Koveras]

5 hours ago, TheDread said:

Excellent.   Create a mechanic for Nation X to retake Syria, just like exists in the real world.  Why our wargame should be any different, indeed.

IF there is a way for a nation to oust a 'friendly' rogue clan from a port, even if it's difficult or expensive...  that's fine, and actually solves some other problems - i.e. what to do when a clan goes dormant or changes nations but refuses to drop their ports.  With the old capital-based front line mechanic it was at least POSSIBLE to use your own alt clan or invite a friendly nation to take a couple of ports to get hostility on something deep in your territory.  Now you'd have to hand over practically every port between the nearest freeport and the problem port.  Fix this so there's a way that friendly clans can incite revolt in a port somehow and get another stab at running hostilities.   

Otherwise...  in a few months...  all of the 55 point ports on the map will be dead because alt clans will have hijacked them and rendered them unusable and there will be no way to recover any of them.   

A better solution would be to make the shipyard, not the port the pointcarrier, which would increase diversity, competition and make for a better balance overall.

And we'd be solving a lot of other problems in regards to alt clans as well.

[Tiedemann]

17 hours ago, admin said:

Not sure what you mean by the high risk task. Climbing the Everest is a hard task, focus firing and stopping ships sailing straight line at constant speed is an easy task. 
You can do it. Casual WOW 25 player raids are 10x harder than this. 

It is not difficult to fight/sink them, it is very very easy. The problem is to sink them before they enter the circle. They do not turn and fight us, they just aim and sail straight for the circle. 

18 hours ago, admin said:

Bots in NPC Raider Port battles do not have bonuses for speed. They are designed to sail at the speed of the slowest ship in group. 

My ship I did 12,7 kn in battle (not optimal wind direction for my Renommee and it is not speed built). AI was sailing away from me, fast! So I will claim that they did 13 + knot in battle for sure. For a LGV that is loaded to do 13+ kn in battle, is it not speed built/buffed? I'm using a speed built ship next time, but please consider making them them slower and/or reduce the points they generate when they enter the circle. 

Or just make them the most OP AI you ever put in the game, but have them target and fight players in sted of this speed race to the circles..! Make it like epic events and as rewarding Players are outnumbered, fighting OP NPC. I would love that at least.. 😁