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Buff inferior 5th and 6th rates for variety


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I am not happy at the current ship disturibution at the OW. It is very rare to see Frigate, Essex, La Belle Poule, Surprise, Cerberus etc. Some of the these ships are only seen in shallow patrol but that's also another problem for other 6th rates which are all dead except Niagra / LRQ / may be Snow and Prince.

For example,

a trincomalee is a non-permit ship which has 9000 hp, 800 broadside weight, decent crew and sailing profile. Endymion is a permit ship and is even better at some points. There are few more competative ships but they are no where to be found (Diana etc.)

while the inferior 5th rates (most of the remaining ones !) only have around half the hp and also half the broadside weight. (frigate 5000 hp, 560 broadside weight)

So as a result, we mostly see Trincos and Endymions or bigger ships around.

Purposal : Do not change the broadside weight of all these ships but increase their hp, may be around %50. So this may make them more competitive on OW, they will be at least something. Also same goes for the 6th rates, they need to have more hp.

Alternative Purposal : Nerf the hp of endymion / trincomalee and other superfrigates to make rest of he ship pool more attractive.

we also need some love for Pavel / 3rd rate / Victory.

Edited by AeRoTR
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Trinc doesn't need much of a nerf its not bad as it is. People just sail it because it has alot of 32pd carro's that hurt and doesn't cost a permit. If you know how to fight a trinc they lose, its as simple as that. 

Endymion could do with a slap though because its just better than many 5th rates at everything. You can easily get it to 15.5 knots and it has 24pd longs which shred most other 5th rates. Also the HP is a bit ridiculous. According to whoever he is called map, after the endy and trinc the next highest HP on a fifth rate is what, the Santa Cecilia with 7,900? Compared to the Endymions 9,965. Along with that the cannons the Endymion can carry is 28 24pd long and 20 9pd longs, compared to the Cecilias 26 12pd longs and 16 9pd longs. The HP difference and damage per broadised doesn't make up the 80 BR difference if anyone wants to even try and bring up BR. If the Endymion is to carry much stronger cannons than its other competitors, it shouldnt be able to go anywhere near as fast, but it can. So I would say either take SOME of its HP away and either lower the caliber of the guns, or, the one I prefer would be to nerf its manoueverability. Make it still hit hard and still be one of the tankiest fifth rates, but nerf its speed and turn rate so that it can't keep up with the smaller ones. It should be more of a ship that is ideal for taking in a sort of fleet to hunt other larger ships such as picking on Aga's and Conni's etc. but make it so that when it comes to the smaller fifth rates they can just run from it if they desire. If people complain at that then take a smaller ship, you have a range of fifth rates to choose from for a reason. It shouldn't be the way it is where currently one ship fills all roles once you get it which it currently is with the port bonuses and mods.

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35 minutes ago, AleXa <3 said:

Trinc doesn't need much of a nerf its not bad as it is. People just sail it because it has alot of 32pd carro's that hurt and doesn't cost a permit. If you know how to fight a trinc they lose, its as simple as that. 

Unless I am completely outskilled I don't see how any other 5th class except Endymion has a chance against me in a Trinco. Please provide something to "back up" this claim of yours.

 

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1 hour ago, Wraith said:

I'm all for increasing the viability of different ships across OW activities, but I don't think their viability and the choice to choose Trinc/Endy vs. all else is purely down to HP... Rather, what needs to happen is intentional (read that as "ahistoric") balancing that bakes in trade-offs in pen vs. dps vs. speed vs. turn rate vs. sailing profile vs. hold capacity, etc. There also needs to be active, open world PvE and PvP content that rewards these various trade-offs.

This is exactly right in my book. Currently the Trinc has a good all-around sail profile, good upwind ability, good speed, great armament, and massive HP versus every other 5th rate. There has to be some reason to sail the others...

It is a fact that the ship that is fastest upwind controls the battle. If the trinc is good enough upwind to chase other frigates, its 4x 9lb chasers (which no other frigate has anything close to) will overcome any difference in speed fairly quickly. This plus the other factors makes it the only go-to 5th rate, when there should be more diversity.

I would like to see other 5th rates get better upwind power than the trinc to help balance its excellent armament + HP; I look at this much like the Indefatigable, which has excellent armament and HP, but a mediocre sail profile to balance it out a bit.

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- Don't buff 6th/5th-rates. No point in turning them all into heavy frigates. We need real diversity, not just cosmetic one.

- Create more shallow water areas all around the map.

- Make 6th-rates and shallow water 5th-rates freely and massively available via free DLCs without cool down (always available).

Edited by LeBoiteux
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18 hours ago, AeRoTR said:

we also need some love for Pavel / 3rd rate / Victory.

For the Pavel and 3rd rate this is definately true!

The Victory could be buffed by raising it’s top speed to the level of l’Ocean imo.

Because of it‘s better upwind sailing profile this measure would leave the Victory as the best sailor, the l‘Ocean as the best tank and the Santissima as the best damage dealer.

Thus more variety in terms of 1st Rate usage would be possible, don‘t you think!?

 

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On 11/12/2019 at 3:18 PM, Doug Maoz said:

I would like to see other 5th rates get better upwind power than the trinc to help balance its excellent armament + HP; I look at this much like the Indefatigable, which has excellent armament and HP, but a mediocre sail profile to balance it out a bit.

This is a good point. I think that giving smaller ships a sailing advantage against larger ships can make it possible for a skilled captain to win the engagement, and it's a way to balance ships without being too disruptive. This type of change with a few hp buffs can help make smaller ships more viable.

This comment also points out one of the major issues with the Endymion's balance at the moment. The Endymion makes no trade-offs for its sailing profile and heavy armament. If we compare the Endymion and Indefatigable:

image.thumb.png.531e286a916a220ae7e070d27e3dd1c7.png

The Endymion only has 3.5% less hp for a vastly superior sailing profile and speed. It is also a lower BR. The only advantage of the Indefatigable is more crew and a heavier carro armament (which is not a benefit that is universally applied, like Endymion's speed and sailing profile). I think ships like the Endymion can have these advantages but should also have disadvantages to balance them, such as much lower hp. For example, if the Endymion had 800 less hp (which is still more than Trinc) then the Indefatigable would have a reasonable advantage in a fight (12.5% more hp) instead of being worse than Endymion in almost every way.

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16 hours ago, Khovey said:

This comment also points out one of the major issues with the Endymion's balance at the moment. The Endymion makes no trade-offs for its sailing profile and heavy armament.

I don't actually have a problem with the permit ships being better than their in-class permitless counterparts. If you are risking the permit, you should get a better ship. 

I simply think there should be a reason to sail other no-permit 5th rates than the Trinc.

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1 hour ago, Doug Maoz said:

I don't actually have a problem with the permit ships being better than their in-class permitless counterparts. If you are risking the permit, you should get a better ship. 

I simply think there should be a reason to sail other no-permit 5th rates than the Trinc.

Even if we ignore the issue of permits altogether (and, yes, I think permits are an issue), there are still 2 problems here.

1. The Endymion is practically a lower BR, better version of the Indef, which is also a permit ship.

2. The Endymion is in many ways better than the Trinc, which itself is better than other 5th rates. In an fight between Endymion and any other 5th rate besides the Trinc, Endymion has a huge advantage.

So in the end, Trinc and Endymion are both go-to ships for 5th rates, which means to create more variety we need to either nerf them or buff the other 5th rates.

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On 11/18/2019 at 9:45 PM, Khovey said:

Even if we ignore the issue of permits altogether (and, yes, I think permits are an issue), there are still 2 problems here.

1. The Endymion is practically a lower BR, better version of the Indef, which is also a permit ship.

2. The Endymion is in many ways better than the Trinc, which itself is better than other 5th rates. In an fight between Endymion and any other 5th rate besides the Trinc, Endymion has a huge advantage.

So in the end, Trinc and Endymion are both go-to ships for 5th rates, which means to create more variety we need to either nerf them or buff the other 5th rates.

we cant. You cannot balance facts. Why i would even try to look for balance between 500 ton and 1000+ ton frigate? 

British Endymion and French Pomone; Hebe - Leda - Trincomalee (and of course US Superfrigates like USS constitution) were the wonders of the frigate building and most advanced ships of that time. 
All three could be buffed. And we wont listen to  "I should be able to kill victory in a cutter" claims. Its against the emotional pattern - the image of the age of sail truth
 

Reason for current state of things is the fact that we have stuck ourselves into british rating system. By data endymion is a good fast and strong 4th rate and Trinco is also a light 4th rate. They are not 5th rates at all because 5 rate class is too wide to be considered seriously for future games. By any logic cerberus cannot be in the same class with Endymion.

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On 11/18/2019 at 3:37 AM, Khovey said:

 

 

The Endymion only has 3.5% less hp for a vastly superior sailing profile and speed. It is also a lower BR. The only advantage of the Indefatigable is more crew and a heavier carro armament (which is not a benefit that is universally applied, like Endymion's speed and sailing profile). I think ships like the Endymion can have these advantages but should also have disadvantages to balance them, such as much lower hp. For example, if the Endymion had 800 less hp (which is still more than Trinc) then the Indefatigable would have a reasonable advantage in a fight (12.5% more hp) instead of being worse than Endymion in almost every way.

They have different roles Many prefer Indefatigable to Endymion in combat.

+ Do not forget that Indefatigable is a razeee. It cannot have Endymion sailing profile.

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15 minutes ago, admin said:

British Endymion and French Pomone - Leda - Trincomalee (and of course USS constitution) were the wonders of the frigate building and most advanced ships of that time. 

I'd immediately purchase the "Pomone" DLC, as soon as available.

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@admin

While it was brought up:

Why is the L'hermione raited  215 BR as 12pd frigate when endymion has 280BR and Diana 250BR as 24pd friagte. Belle Poule an other 12pd frigate is rated 180BR?

Edited by z4ys
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50 minutes ago, admin said:

+ Do not forget that Indefatigable is a razeee. It cannot have Endymion sailing profile.

Yes, this is true, so shouldn't the Indefatigable have more hp or thickness? To put it into different words, why does the Endymion have the same hp and thickness as a razee while being faster?

Edited by Khovey
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16 minutes ago, Khovey said:

Yes, this is true, so shouldn't it have more hp or thickness? Right now Endymion has the better sailing profile and the same thickness with very similar hp.

Well i cannot really measure the thickness of endymion these days. But based on the lines they were not really different. But what we can say that thickness/penentrations will be addressed during final combat and sailing rebalance. Soon

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7 minutes ago, admin said:

Well i cannot really measure the thickness of endymion these days. But based on the lines they were not really different. But what we can say that thickness/penentrations will be addressed during final combat and sailing rebalance. Soon

tbh i think you need to manually balance it from now on, seeing how the IRL thickness on Victory was 60cm at waterline vs ingame reaches over 90 makes little sense with the realistic penetration values, hence why the 18pd cannons are useless vs anything heavier then 4th rates. It could be tuned by decreasing pen on 24pd cannons and up so you wouldnt punch holes from 500m+  range which is how it is today, while it actually was effective range of 100-500m depending on ships.

This would also thinking of it make more 3rd and 4th rate lineships relevant

Edited by erelkivtuadrater
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1 hour ago, admin said:

Reason for current state of things is the fact that we have stuck ourselves into british rating system.

Indeed.

Maybe part of the issue is also the timeframe of NA ships ? From what I know (ie France), French stopped building 9-pdr frigates (such as La Renommée) in 1774 and 12-pdr frigates (such as L'Hermione) in 1798 while building 18-pdr frigates during 1781-1813 and 24-pdr ones during 1772-1843.

I don't know if a similar chronology may apply to the British ships. However, a 9-pdr small frigate built in 1758 such as HMS Cerberus 'cannot be in the same class with' a 24-pdr heavy frigate built in 1797 such as the Endymion as you stated above...

(btw threedecks.org that you seem to know and use and that is based on R. Winfield's books classifies all the ingame 9-pdr shallow water frigates as 6th rates according to that British rating system. But I for one do not know anything about this system.)

Edited by LeBoiteux
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9 minutes ago, admin said:

Well i cannot really measure the thickness of endymion these days. But based on the lines they were not really different. But what we can say that thickness/penentrations will be addressed during final combat and sailing rebalance. Soon

Pls whats up with Diana, in august 2018 it was said that this ship will come into the game. 

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1 hour ago, admin said:

They have different roles Many prefer Indefatigable to Endymion in combat.

+ Do not forget that Indefatigable is a razeee. It cannot have Endymion sailing profile.

Indefatigable is a 4th rate now, Endymion is 5th rate, so who would prefer standart frigate ? 

For me I would go with Ingermanland instead of Endymion, but where are the others...

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35 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

Maybe part of the issue is the timeframe of NA ships ? From what I know (ie France), French stopped building 9-pdr frigates (such as La Renommée) in 1774 and 12-pdr frigates (such as L'Hermione) in 1798 while building 18-pdr frigates during 1781-1813 and 24-pdr ones during 1772-1843.

That's only one part of the problem. The other one is that historical reality is quite hard to tranform in game reality, especially MMO. There was just 1 Endymion and 1 Indefatigable (a few sisters were built for  both later), and we can build many of them. Light ships were sometimes slower then large ones, but we have here other story. Building, maintaining and especially crewing 1st rate was quite difficult and time consuming task, and we have them in large quantities, because even when you make them costly, players will do anything to get them and then will do anything not to lose them. So it's devs task to balance this and it's hard task - possibly the way is to give each ship some flavour, so it can have some role.

And people will sail the best ship available - that's the reason devs hide some of that ships behind permits.

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2 hours ago, Aquillas said:

I'd immediately purchase the "Pomone" DLC, as soon as available.

Interesting idea. Hebe and Pomone. The mothers of greatest frigates Trincomalee and Endymion. 

 

1 hour ago, o7Captain said:

Pls whats up with Diana, in august 2018 it was said that this ship will come into the game. 

Diana is in the game. It will remain rare gift ship for special occasions (or screwups)

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7 minutes ago, admin said:

Interesting idea. Hebe and Pomone. The mothers of greatest frigates Trincomalee and Endymion. 

Heavy frigate DLC is very dangerous. Pandora and Hermione is quite balanced, Hercules is OP a bit, but quite fragile. But heavy and fast redeemable ship has to be balanced more carefully

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4 hours ago, admin said:

we cant. You cannot balance facts. Why i would even try to look for balance between 500 ton and 1000+ ton frigate? 

You may not be able to balance their broadside weight or HP directly, but sailing profile & turn rate (i.e. ability to control the fight) could be a way to give the smaller 5th rates any advantage over the heavier ones. If the Trinc is simply the best or comparable to the others, that leads to a stale open world meta.

Just my 2c.

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3 hours ago, Malcolm3 said:

Heavy frigate DLC is very dangerous. Pandora and Hermione is quite balanced, Hercules is OP a bit, but quite fragile. But heavy and fast redeemable ship has to be balanced more carefully

Strangely enough, the word 'balanced" sounds very much like a synonym of 'weak' in your sentences 😁

Edited by LeBoiteux
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