Petition to lower the cost of the 3rd rate and St. Pavel

[huliotkd]

8 minutes ago, Snoopy said:

Time to bring out my favorite statistic about this: if you join the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic wars, you have a 2/3 chance to end up on a 1-3rate. Not rare. Frigates were the sought-after commands.

3rd rate were intended to use as we use 1st rates in naval action. important Naval action of the period were fought on 3rd rate max, with a lot of lower rate ships. 1st rates were used in 3-4 real battle...nothing more.

[Teutonic]

6 minutes ago, huliotkd said:

3rd rate were intended to use as we use 1st rates in naval action. important Naval action of the period were fought on 3rd rate max, with a lot of lower rate ships. 1st rates were used in 3-4 real battle...nothing more.

and I think a majority of us currently playing would love incentives to create this "ratio."

currently there is little reason to sail anything below a 1st rate besides the cost, and even then the cost can be mitigated to a degree through coordination with others.

suggestions that @rediii has stated with BR balance and BR adjustment on ports is, in my opinion, just 1 step towards achieving a better goal in lowering the "need" for 1st rates.

1st rates are great right now, most guns, HPs, best BR ratio. They have everything and very little downsides.

I don't want to nerf the 1st rate stats for the ship, what I want is someone to have to make the conscious decision if they decide to use a 1st rate in a battle, that they should expect another group to be able to take 3 - 3rd rates to match the BR value, and that those 3rd rates, if they coordinate are superior in firepower, HPs, and maneuverability.

if the BR of a port was 10k, I'd like to see it where if you decided to only bring 1st rates, you could only bring 8-9 of them, but when it came to 2nds or 3rds, you could bring 15-25 ships. if you have the numbers, the 2nd or 3rds would win based on stats, but depending on who is more battle-hardened would determine the overall outcome.

 

Alternatively we as players will always find a "meta" in RvR, if that is the case, I'd rather have a 3rd rate meta that also supports 2nds and 4ths to a degree instead of the insanely bland Ocean/Santi Meta we have now. it's legit cancer.

[Snoopy]

23 minutes ago, huliotkd said:

3rd rate were intended to use as we use 1st rates in naval action. important Naval action of the period were fought on 3rd rate max, with a lot of lower rate ships. 1st rates were used in 3-4 real battle...nothing more.

I agree about the first rate spam, BR cap on ports is too high. But it's wrong to say they only participated in 3-4 real battles. Ideally the fleet compositions we have should reflect RL fleets, two deckers mostly, with three decker SoL sprinkled in.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Snoopy

[Aquillas]

14 minutes ago, rediii said:

Agree with the 3rd

The Pavel has a lot of different issues. What many forget is that it loses it's bowsprit against all 3rd rates and above aswell. 

Also it is outclassed in every stat by the buccentaure.

And it is easy to leak her to death.

[Never]

34 minutes ago, rediii said:

Agree with the 3rd

The Pavel has a lot of different issues. What many forget is that it loses it's bowsprit against all 3rd rates and above aswell. 

Also it is outclassed in every stat by the buccentaure.

It isn't 100% as far as I know, but I heard there is an upcoming rebalance patch and Pavel will be part of it. Maybe @admin can confirm

[Snoopy]

2 hours ago, rediii said:

Agree with the 3rd

The Pavel has a lot of different issues. What many forget is that it loses it's bowsprit against all 3rd rates and above aswell. 

Also it is outclassed in every stat by the buccentaure.

This is actually good balancing: It's highly likely that Bucentaure was a much better ship than Pavel in RL

With it's 570 BR Pavel is pretty efficient at combat capability per BR, its just not a great ship to sail.. the leak issue, the awkward gun deck layout, ..

[Sir Texas Sir]

Either she needs to be made faster than the Bucc and Christian with current guns, or she needs her original gun lay out of the 18 lbs in place of the 6 lbs we currently have.  Though I always though the poods lay out could be added to give it something interesting.  Either way this is what I would make the guns instead.

Lower Deck 30 guns at 36 lb max (this will give more reason to use the french guns).

Upper Deck 32 guns of 24 lbs

Quarterdeck/forcastle 24 18 lbs

Yes this would make it a 86 gun ship compared to it being a 82, but it still doesn't have chasers.  I would still make it faster but have the worse turn rate out of all the three.

The Pavel originally had: 

Lower Gun Deck24 Russian 36-Pounder
Lower Gun Deck6 Russian 1-Pood Edinorog (1780)
Upper Gun Deck6 Russian 1-Pood Edinorog (1780)
Upper Gun Deck26 Russian 24-Pounder
Quarterdeck/Forecastle24 Russian 18-Pounder
Roundhouse4 Russian 1/4-Pood Edinorog

Instead of what it has:

Lower Gun Deck6 Russian 1-Pood Edinorog (1780)
Lower Gun Deck24 Russian 36-Pounder
Upper Gun Deck4 Russian 1-Pood Edinorog (1780)
Upper Gun Deck26 Russian 24-Pounder
Quarterdeck/Forecastle24 Russian 6-Pounder

 

[erelkivtuadrater]

9 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Either she needs to be made faster than the Bucc and Christian with current guns, or she needs her original gun lay out of the 18 lbs in place of the 6 lbs we currently have.  Though I always though the poods lay out could be added to give it something interesting.  Either way this is what I would make the guns instead.

Lower Deck 30 guns at 36 lb max (this will give more reason to use the french guns).

Upper Deck 32 guns of 24 lbs

Quarterdeck/forcastle 24 18 lbs

Yes this would make it a 86 gun ship compared to it being a 82, but it still doesn't have chasers.  I would still make it faster but have the worse turn rate out of all the three.

The Pavel originally had: 

Lower Gun Deck24 Russian 36-Pounder
Lower Gun Deck6 Russian 1-Pood Edinorog (1780)
Upper Gun Deck6 Russian 1-Pood Edinorog (1780)
Upper Gun Deck26 Russian 24-Pounder
Quarterdeck/Forecastle24 Russian 18-Pounder
Roundhouse4 Russian 1/4-Pood Edinorog

Instead of what it has:

Lower Gun Deck6 Russian 1-Pood Edinorog (1780)
Lower Gun Deck24 Russian 36-Pounder
Upper Gun Deck4 Russian 1-Pood Edinorog (1780)
Upper Gun Deck26 Russian 24-Pounder
Quarterdeck/Forecastle24 Russian 6-Pounder

 

Think if they balanced the armament on ships with what they actually had it could make more ships useful, e.g limiting poods for st pavel, limiting 36pd longs as heaviest armament for ALL french 74's and up etc

[Snoopy]

3 hours ago, Intrepido said:

The problem is the comparison with the other inmediate choices, Bellona and Bucentaure.

When you analize their stats, no one will ever decide to craft a Pavel. 

Pavel could be an option if he had a lower water line, less heel, more speed than buc, able to load higher guns on the top decks (6pds are shit), a stronger bowsprit, a different sailing profile with more upwind sailing capabilities, a small buff in hp and thickness...

I fully agree (see above) that Pavel needs help, my point is this: It can still be worse than the others in her class and not be useless: you can fit 5 Bucs into a fight vs 6 Pavels for the same BR. It is a bit moot because the leak thing is such a hard counter but suppose this was fixed - this kind of balancing would allow more variety. Bellona vs Pavel, well Pavel still carries 36/42s and they are a pretty big advantage and are paid for in BR.

Of course Christian is the real outlier and in need of the nerf bat, it's straight up the best second rate without paying anything for it.